The reason I'll always pick Montana over Young is because of stats. Montana was focused on winning games while Steve Young was concerned about having better stats than Montana.
It is a tough discussion and "best" really needs to be defined. Because I have no doubt about Favre and Rodgers being better QB's than Starr but how do you look past all of those championships? Same thing with Otto Graham. I mean, I'd take Kosar or Sipe in terms of being able to throw the ball but Graham led one of the most dominant teams in football history.
I think in a conversation like this you have to look a little past the stats. Otherwise, just about any modern day QB is going to be "better" than guys from the past. I'm not knocking Ben but TB was a helluva QB and none shone brighter on the biggest stage. Bradshaw didn't always put up the biggest numbers but you have to remember that he was on a run first, run second team. He was throwing in a lot more predictable situations against defenses that didn't get penalized for illegal contact, defenseless receivers, touching the QB's head, hitting the QB late and many other things.
Not selling them short at all. Just being realistic. Bradshaw was a average to above average passer. Ben is much better and is a squirrel bastard to boot. Bradshaw's teams also benefited from having arguably the greatest defense of all time. I also found it interesting that you found Warner better than Hart but Van Brocklin better than Warner. Could you elaborate a bit?
Bartkowski never won anything aside from 1 playoff game. I would even put Jeff George ahead of Bartkowski as the best Falcon QB.
Van Brocklin won a championship too and was doing things ahead of his time. HOFer and longer tenure as a Ram than Warner. I could easily put Warner ahead of Van Brocklin but I'd say it's arguable. But I think Warner was clearly better than Hart. I'd take Lomax over Hart. I just didn't think Warner should be the top for two teams.
Well, Van Brocklin did win titles with 2 different teams.
I don't think it's clear, though. You said it yourself, when Bradshaw was called upon to be more than a game manager in the post season he could. That's why I say it's important to remember just how run-heavy those Pittsburgh teams were before looking only at Bradshaw's numbers. Dude had a gun and was aggressive. Hardly the traits of what I'd call a game manager. Put him in the pass-happy NFL of today and he'd have inflated stats too.
The 1950`s era SF 49ers had several HOF players yet never won a NFL championship and i am not sure they ever even won a playoff game during the 50`s after moving to the NFL from the AAFC.
Ben's had some clunkers too. Was it 5 or 6 picks he threw against JAX last year?
Would you put Bert Jones ahead of Payton Manning or Johnny U? And Pastorini was good but Warren Moon was far better. Fun Pastorini fact that some may not know...he has a Super Bowl ring. He was on the 1980 Raiders.Bert Jones and Dan Pastorini gettin no love
Stallworth was very underrated IMO. Swann gets all the love for the circus catches he would make but Stallworth was a better overall receiver and Swann's overall body of work doesn't make him a hall of famer. In fact, Mel Gray has a similar body of work with the exception being that Gray has 5 less TD's but doesn't get near the recognition.
I get what you're saying but the guy who wins multiple Super Bowls and was integral with historic plays has got to get the nod over someone who just has similar regular season stats, doesn't he? Coming up big on the biggest stage is always going to get you more recognition.
Football is a team sport and Stallworth didn't win those rings on his own. His team did. It isn't Gray's fault that the Cards couldn't get to the Super Bowl. The Hall of Fame is supposed to celebrate a players individual achievement and contribution and should be considered on that alone. To base their career on being fortunate enough to play for a championship team would make the Hall a farce. Unfortunately, the only way to get in if you didn't play for a championship team is to be so exceptional that they can't overlook you. Larry Fitzgerald is a prime example. Hell, this years class has 4 players who never played for a Super Bowl winner: Brian Urlacher, Brian Dawkins, Terrell Owens, and Randy Moss.
