OT: Lakers vs Bulls game last night

[WildBB]

I know that trade looked bad and pissed a lot of people off but I think Memphis won the trade, in terms of value received. Of course the Lakers won a title with Pau so they would do the trade again 100 times but it's not like Memphis lost a title by trading Pau.

That deal sent Pau Gasol with a 2010 2nd round pick to Memphis for Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, Aaron McKie, a 1st round pick in 2008, another 1st rounder in 2010, and Marc Gasol. That's a good haul, especially for a team that was going nowhere, like Memphis at that time. They were 13-33 when the deal went through. The year prior they were 22-60 and the year of the trade, which happened in February, they finished 22-60.

Pau was good for them, having spent 6 1/2 years there and was Rookie of the Year, made the All-Rookie 1st Team, and was an All-Star once. He also helped them make their first playoff appearance, although they never won a playoff game in any of the years they made the playoffs with Pau. They were swept 3 times for a 0-12 record. That's not all on him, of course, but they weren't going anywhere when the deal was made and Pau was already making max money.

Marc came over and spent 10 1/2 years as a Grizzly. He was a 3 time All-Star, Defensive Player of the Year in 2012-13, made the All-NBA 2nd Team in 2012-13, made the All-NBA 1st Team in 2014-15, and All-Defense 2nd Team in 2012-13. They also won their 1st series then as well, beating the Spurs 4-2 before losing to Thunder in 7 games. I know he had longer but he accomplished more as a Grizzly than Pau did.

What really gives the Grizzlies side the edge is they got value for Marc last year at the deadline, trading him for Jonas Valanciunas, C.J. Miles, Delon Wright, and a 2024 2nd round pick. So they're still benefitting from that trade now in 2019. The Grizzlies resigned Valanciunas and traded Miles and Wright. Miles was dealt for Dwight Howard, who was bought out, and they traded Delon Wright in a sign and trade for a 2021 2nd round pick and a 2023 2nd round pick from Dallas. Valanciunas resigned in the offseason for 3 years/$45 million in a front loaded deal, paying him $16 this year, $15 next year, and $14 million in it's final year. Valanciunas is also much younger than Marc, he's 27 and won't be 28 until May, so they have him locked down until he's 30. That contract isn't bad either, they should be able to move it if they choose.

If Memphis decides to move Valanciunas then the Suns should inquire simply because the last 2 bigs they dealt won titles with their new teams. Pau and the Lakers lost in the finals in his first half season in LA but won the title in his first full year. Marc got his in Toronto last year, which was just half a season there.

Who were the first rounders?

I believe
that trade really hampered some very good Suns teams advancing in the playoffs a few times. Iirc. Chambers really lambasted Stearn and said the Suns and just about anyone else were'nt given a chance to make offers in a deal for Gasol.

 

[Mainstreet]

If we don't continue with our good start and fall under .500 again I would expect they make a multi player deal before the deadline and bring someone like him in here.

And they could make more then one deal.

Trading for a power forward sounds about right but I can't see the Bulls parting with Markannen as much as I would like it.

 

[Hoop Head]

Who were the first rounders?

I believe
that trade really hampered some very good Suns teams advancing in the playoffs a few times. Iirc. Chambers really lambasted Stearn and said the Suns and just about anyone else were'nt given a chance to make offers in a deal for Gasol.

Donte Green and Greivis Vasquez, both selected at 28th overall. Not great picks in terms of where they landed or players selected.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Who were the first rounders?

I believe that trade really hampered some very good Suns teams advancing in the playoffs a few times. Iirc. Chambers really lambasted Stearn and said the Suns and just about anyone else were'nt given a chance to make offers in a deal for Gasol.

Sure, many of us were angered by that deal but much of that anger grew from ignorance - most of us had no idea that his little brother was the real deal. And while Pau hit it big in LA, prior to the trade the popular sentiment seemed to be that Pau was overrated and not a true star at all which is why he couldn't carry Memphis to the next level. And according to Pau's Wikipedia page, the Memphis GM at the time, Chris Wallace, insists he fielded offers from other teams but no one came close to the Lakers offer.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Sure, many of us were angered by that deal but much of that anger grew from ignorance - most of us had no idea that his little brother was the real deal. And while Pau hit it big in LA, prior to the trade the popular sentiment seemed to be that Pau was overrated and not a true star at all which is why he couldn't carry Memphis to the next level. And according to Pau's Wikipedia page, the Memphis GM at the time, Chris Wallace, insists he fielded offers from other teams but no one came close to the Lakers offer.

I can’t recall anyone saying he wasn’t a star. If that narrative existed it was monumentally overshadowed by the surely 99% of the rest of the nba universe that thought the Lakers swindled Memphis. It would be the same as booker going to the lakers for a pupu platter of hot garbage (and then getting lucky that the rights to one player ended up being worth much more than anyone believed).

 

[Western Font]

IMO the Lakers won the Pau trade because they converted it into championships. It gave the face of their franchise a second championship era, the city a fourth championship era, and the franchise a fifth championship era. It gave them one more championship than the “Big Three” Celtics of that era and reaffirmed the Lakers as the greatest of the league’s “public teams” and made them oodles of money (I hate all of this btw). Memphis may have extended the return long-term, but they never won a division, won four playoff series and made one conference final, and are still farther from a championship than the Lakers.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think a lot of us didn't know how good Marc Gasol was myself included.

 

[AzStevenCal]

IMO the Lakers won the Pau trade because they converted it into championships. It gave the face of their franchise a second championship era, the city a fourth championship era, and the franchise a fifth championship era. It gave them one more championship than the “Big Three” Celtics of that era and reaffirmed the Lakers as the greatest of the league’s “public teams” and made them oodles of money (I hate all of this btw). Memphis may have extended the return long-term, but they never won a division, won four playoff series and made one conference final, and are still farther from a championship than the Lakers.

I usually agree with your logic and insight but this one surprises me. Memphis was a middling team with Pau, they were a far better team during Marc's career there. The Lakers had Kobe, Odom and Bynum in their prime along with good role players. The Grizzlies were coming off a 22 win season with Pau (and they were 14-34 at the time of the trade).

But all that aside, this conversation wasn't really about who won the trade, it was about whether or not the NBA stood by and allowed the Lakers to steal a quality player. I certainly thought the Lakers, aided by Jerry West, had just pulled a fast one but since then I've come to realize that it was a very good trade for both teams.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I can’t recall anyone saying he wasn’t a star. If that narrative existed it was monumentally overshadowed by the surely 99% of the rest of the nba universe that thought the Lakers swindled Memphis. It would be the same as booker going to the lakers for a pupu platter of hot garbage (and then getting lucky that the rights to one player ended up being worth much more than anyone believed).

Jerry West was very big on Marc Gasol but from what I remember he claims he wasn't behind the trade which also runs counter to what most seemed to think about the deal at the time.

I didn't know anything about Marc Gasol until after the trade, I believe that was true for most NBA fans and apparently a lot of owners and GM's too. And I have no idea what Kupchak or Wallace and company knew about him. But considering he showed signs of stardom from almost the first moment he stepped on an NBA court, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Chris Wallace knew what they were getting.

And if I had a time machine, I'd take you back to 2007 so you could listen to all the "he's lazy", "he's soft", "can't carry his team" kind of comments that showed up on message boards and sports shows almost regularly. The Pau conversation at the time reminds me very much of what was said about Love as he left Minnesota. But since I'm forced to live life linearly, we'll just have to agree to disagree with the way he was viewed pre-trade.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think a lot of us didn't know how good Marc Gasol was myself included.

But neither did the pros. He was drafted 48th overall.

 

[Mainstreet]

But neither did the pros. He was drafted 48th overall.

Maybe it's some comfort but not a lot. It seems like scouts shouldn't miss this badly. Jokic went in the second round as well.

 

[SirStefan32]

Maybe it's some comfort but not a lot. It seems like scouts shouldn't miss this badly. Jokic went in the second round as well.

I think the problem is that we only remember "good" second-rounders. Jokic had serious issues. He was so severely overweight that his coach in Europe would not allow him to play. One of the major European teams refused to sign him. He was known for eating a gallon of ice cream and drinking a two-liter of Coke after a huge meal. He actually didn't care much about basketball. It was just something he did. He literally preferred shoveling horse crap in the stables over playing basketball.

I am not as familiar with Gasol, but I do remember that he had similar weight issues.

Professionals know these players, but it's still a crap shoot, even near the top of the draft, let alone in second round. All of them have talent and potential, but it's really difficult to figure out who is going to be the one that figures it out. Very few do. For every Jokic, there are hundreds of second round picks who never play more than a handful of games in the NBA. I am pretty sure even the guy who scouted and drafted Jokic would admit that they had no idea he would make it to the NBA, let alone become an All-NBA player.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think the problem is that we only remember "good" second-rounders. Jokic had serious issues. He was so severely overweight that his coach in Europe would not allow him to play. One of the major European teams refused to sign him. He was known for eating a gallon of ice cream and drinking a two-liter of Coke after a huge meal. He actually didn't care much about basketball. It was just something he did. He literally preferred shoveling horse crap in the stables over playing basketball.

I am not as familiar with Gasol, but I do remember that he had similar weight issues.

Professionals know these players, but it's still a crap shoot, even near the top of the draft, let alone in second round. All of them have talent and potential, but it's really difficult to figure out who is going to be the one that figures it out. Very few do. For every Jokic, there are hundreds of second round picks who never play more than a handful of games in the NBA. I am pretty sure even the guy who scouted and drafted Jokic would admit that they had no idea he would make it to the NBA, let alone become an All-NBA player.

Sounds like my kind of guy.

Seriously most second round picks are a long shot but when a team hits, it can be special.

I found the link below to be interesting as to ranking the best second round picks since 1980.

https://www.nba.com/magic/ranking-second-round-draft-60-20180211

If the Suns had kept Marcin Gortat they would have two on the list. Of course Goran Dragic was the other.

Now I see Steve Kerr, Ced Ceballos and Jeff Hornacek is on the list as well. The Suns are good and maybe I missed some.

 

[Western Font]

I usually agree with your logic and insight but this one surprises me. Memphis was a middling team with Pau, they were a far better team during Marc's career there. The Lakers had Kobe, Odom and Bynum in their prime along with good role players. The Grizzlies were coming off a 22 win season with Pau (and they were 14-34 at the time of the trade).

But all that aside, this conversation wasn't really about who won the trade, it was about whether or not the NBA stood by and allowed the Lakers to steal a quality player. I certainly thought the Lakers, aided by Jerry West, had just pulled a fast one but since then I've come to realize that it was a very good trade for both teams.

Totally fair. I added the IMO because I realize people have come to appreciate the long-term return for the Grizzlies more and more. The thing is, because the Lakers had Kobe/Odom/Bynum, it seemed like teams very often had no answer for Gasol, and he led a number of series in rebounds, including the finals. I remember him being particularly frustrating, anyway.

I guess I just think that if you make a trade that is the difference between two rings vs. one or zero, there’s no way you lost that trade.