OT: Ray Horton

[JC_AZ]

Cleveland Browns defensive coordinator finds calm in flying

During the National Football League lockout two years ago, Cleveland Browns defensive coordinator Ray Horton spent his time pursuing his goal of getting his pilot's license. "It's just you, you're in the air and defying the laws of gravity. It’s the most calming thing I've ever done and it’s probably my biggest accomplishment," Horton said.
The Plain Dealer (Cleveland)

Interesting tidbit...

 

[john h]

Cleveland Browns defensive coordinator finds calm in flying

During the National Football League lockout two years ago, Cleveland Browns defensive coordinator Ray Horton spent his time pursuing his goal of getting his pilot's license. "It's just you, you're in the air and defying the laws of gravity. It’s the most calming thing I've ever done and it’s probably my biggest accomplishment," Horton said.
The Plain Dealer (Cleveland)

Interesting tidbit...

Dear Ray: I had sort of a different experience flying over Laos and North Vietnam. I would not use the word "calming". At one point on one of my flights gravity kicked in big time and I found myself on the ground with bad guys all around who wanted to hurt me. To each his own however. Taking off and flying a mission and coming back alive might be considered a big accomplishment. I give you that.

 

[52brandon]

Dear Ray: I had sort of a different experience flying over Laos and North Vietnam. I would not use the word "calming". At one point on one of my flights gravity kicked in big time and I found myself on the ground with bad guys all around who wanted to hurt me. To each his own however. Taking off and flying a mission and coming back alive might be considered a big accomplishment. I give you that.

lol, kinda apples to oranges, no? Friendly, controlled airspace. Compared to war-zone, enemy controlled airspace

 

[john h]

lol, kinda apples to oranges, no? Friendly, controlled airspace. Compared to war-zone, enemy controlled airspace

The insurance companies would not sell military pilots insurance no matter peace or war. There is a good statistical reason for that. Commercial flying is safer than driving but things change a lot when you try to land a jet on a carrier at night in large seas and low visibility, no alternate. You are shaky at the best knowing when you hit the deck you push the throttles wide open. Sort of counter intuitive to everything you learned while training. When flying any plane you had better be on your game all the time and not get to relaxed. The people flying the small aircraft with little experience often get much to relaxed when they should have their head on a swivel and be alert and thinking about where in front of then they will land if the engine quits. No apples and oranges with gravity. Whether you crash at 600 mph or 100 mph really does not make much difference for the most part. Drop a helicopter in from 100 feet and not moving forward at all will likely kill you. As a matter of fact we lost over 6,000 helicopters in Vietnam.

 

[52brandon]

The insurance companies would not sell military pilots insurance no matter peace or war. There is a good statistical reason for that. Commercial flying is safer than driving but things change a lot when you try to land a jet on a carrier at night in large seas and low visibility, no alternate. You are shaky at the best knowing when you hit the deck you push the throttles wide open. Sort of counter intuitive to everything you learned while training. When flying any plane you had better be on your game all the time and not get to relaxed. The people flying the small aircraft with little experience often get much to relaxed when they should have their head on a swivel and be alert and thinking about where in front of then they will land if the engine quits. No apples and oranges with gravity. Whether you crash at 600 mph or 100 mph really does not make much difference for the most part. Drop a helicopter in from 100 feet and not moving forward at all will likely kill you. As a matter of fact we lost over 6,000 helicopters in Vietnam.

I understand that. My apples to oranges was regarding congested airspace while trying to be shot down. By yourself in the mountains is a bit easier to maintain. At least I would imagine

 

[Jetstream Green]

Dear Mr. Horton, just remember this is not football, do not approach the runway from a unknown direction and freak the air traffic controllers out as you blitz land your plane...please

 

[CtCardinals78]

The insurance companies would not sell military pilots insurance no matter peace or war. There is a good statistical reason for that. Commercial flying is safer than driving but things change a lot when you try to land a jet on a carrier at night in large seas and low visibility, no alternate. You are shaky at the best knowing when you hit the deck you push the throttles wide open. Sort of counter intuitive to everything you learned while training. When flying any plane you had better be on your game all the time and not get to relaxed. The people flying the small aircraft with little experience often get much to relaxed when they should have their head on a swivel and be alert and thinking about where in front of then they will land if the engine quits. No apples and oranges with gravity. Whether you crash at 600 mph or 100 mph really does not make much difference for the most part. Drop a helicopter in from 100 feet and not moving forward at all will likely kill you. As a matter of fact we lost over 6,000 helicopters in Vietnam.

What plane did you fly?

 

[Captain Matt]

I'm intrigued with John's story too... Do tell!

My fater-in-law was an F-4 jockey who spent 7.5 years (Oct 1965-Feb 1973) on the ground, surrounded by the enemy, at the luxurious hotel in downtown Hanoi. I think some celebrities paid them a visit - Jane Fonda, etc. He came home on 12 Feb 1973 and is alive and well today.

My dad was a P-5 Marlin crewman out of Subic Bay in the late 60s. I was winged as a P-3 bubba (still in uniform). So aviation history (especially Vietnam era) is VERY exciting to me.

 

[john h]

I'm intrigued with John's story too... Do tell!

My fater-in-law was an F-4 jockey who spent 7.5 years (Oct 1965-Feb 1973) on the ground, surrounded by the enemy, at the luxurious hotel in downtown Hanoi. I think some celebrities paid them a visit - Jane Fonda, etc. He came home on 12 Feb 1973 and is alive and well today.

My dad was a P-5 Marlin crewman out of Subic Bay in the late 60s. I was winged as a P-3 bubba (still in uniform). So aviation history (especially Vietnam era) is VERY exciting to me.

I was in Subic Bay in 1968 for Jungle Survivor training. Perfect place. I was stationed on a couple of F-4 bases in SEA. You could fly from our base at Ubon to Hanoi in well under an hour and could see the AAA exploding over the trails over Laos shooting at the ancient WWII B-26 we used as nigh dive bombers over the Ho Chi Ming trails. We could see this while sitting on our porch having a beer at night. I was a Special Ops Helicopter pilot one year and an Air Rescue pilot my second year. Shot down near DMZ 1n 1969 by a ZPU (Quad 50). My unit lost 10 out of 12 helicopters but not all the crews. Air Rescue or our own guys managed to get us. As my helicopter was only partially destroyed they used a B-52 to blow it into another world as it had sensitive info aboard. I always carried an A-1 assault rifle, .38 revolver and grenade launcher and sat on my flak jacket as most of us did. I had no plans to be captured alive if I could help it. Prior to helicopters I flew the F-94, F-89, U-6A, UH-1, HH-43, HH-3E, C-118, C-47, B-25, KC-135, C-130 and even the B-29. Although I am older than dirt I still work today. Nothing will ever replace my job in the Air Force and I will always consider myself and Air Force Pilot first and a Cardinal Fan second.

 

[john h]

I'm intrigued with John's story too... Do tell!

My fater-in-law was an F-4 jockey who spent 7.5 years (Oct 1965-Feb 1973) on the ground, surrounded by the enemy, at the luxurious hotel in downtown Hanoi. I think some celebrities paid them a visit - Jane Fonda, etc. He came home on 12 Feb 1973 and is alive and well today.

My dad was a P-5 Marlin crewman out of Subic Bay in the late 60s. I was winged as a P-3 bubba (still in uniform). So aviation history (especially Vietnam era) is VERY exciting to me.

I much admire your father in law. He has probably not told you all he has seen or been through as words will sometimes fail you. I feared capture more than death. Few if any downed airman made it out of Laos alive as they did not take prisoners. When you went down in Laos unless a rescue helicopter got you then you were likely done for. The bad guys used dogs and flooded the areas with troops. MThey had no way to hold prisoners in Laos. You had a better chance to survive if you were captured over Hanoi by regulars.

 

[40yearfan]

I was in Subic Bay in 1968 for Jungle Survivor training. Perfect place. I was stationed on a couple of F-4 bases in SEA. You could fly from our base at Ubon to Hanoi in well under an hour and could see the AAA exploding over the trails over Laos shooting at the ancient WWII B-26 we used as nigh dive bombers over the Ho Chi Ming trails. We could see this while sitting on our porch having a beer at night. I was a Special Ops Helicopter pilot one year and an Air Rescue pilot my second year. Shot down near DMZ 1n 1969 by a ZPU (Quad 50). My unit lost 10 out of 12 helicopters but not all the crews. Air Rescue or our own guys managed to get us. As my helicopter was only partially destroyed they used a B-52 to blow it into another world as it had sensitive info aboard. I always carried an A-1 assault rifle, .38 revolver and grenade launcher and sat on my flak jacket as most of us did. I had no plans to be captured alive if I could help it. Prior to helicopters I flew the F-94, F-89, U-6A, UH-1, HH-43, HH-3E, C-118, C-47, B-25, KC-135, C-130 and even the B-29. Although I am older than dirt I still work today. Nothing will ever replace my job in the Air Force and I will always consider myself and Air Force Pilot first and a Cardinal Fan second.

WOW!!! You are quite a man John H. I tip my hat to you.

 

[Captain Matt]

John, thanks for the reply!

I went through flight school at a Joint Pilot Training site in Corpus Christi Tx and flew with a bunch of KC-135 and Herc drivers. One of my best friends in the world is an H-model pilot (currently on embassy duty). You have an impressive list of platforms! Now-a-days we are lucky to get rides in as many as you actually flew. My meager list is T-34C, T-44, TC-12, P-3C, and S-3s (trainer, trainer, trainer, anti-sub, anti-sub).

I've had the chance to hear parts of my father-in-law's Vietnam story at various points over the last 20-odd years. It begins on 17 Oct 1965, when 3 of 6 F-4s off of the Independence were shot down on a daytime bombing mission against a bridge near Thai Nguyen. As the story goes... there was a reconissiance flight the day before the mission. Over night the Viet Cong towed in a dozen AAA batteries so that when the F-4s came in on their bombing run, they were dead meat. He has perfect clarity of the shootdown and ejection - said it sounded like a pencil repeatedly getting punched through alumnium foil, then the Christmas tree lit up (warning lights), the cockpit filled with smoke, and he heard eject, eject, eject. He said the last memory he had before the ejection was being taught at prototype that "the safe ejection speed was around 250 kts, but you could punch out at up to 550 kts and survive" then his eyeballs flashed to the pitot static gauge and he thought to himself "this is gonna hurt."

His "capture" was by local villagers who held him overnnight before regulars showed up with a truck to take him to one of the bigger camps. The reason I put capture in quotes is because his body was thrashed fromt he ejection. Knees, back, shoulders were all busted up so when his parachute landed in the middle of a filed with locals all around, there wasn't much he could do. He said he recalled hearing rescue efforts on his hand held and was later briefed that they came very close to recovery, but never made it.

Several years later (at the Hanoi Hilton) he ran into 3 of the surviving crewmen who were shot down on the same mission... never knowing they were alive. They all made it out in Feb 1973, they all went back into the cockpit and retired from the Navy, and they remain very close friends. Many years later they all had daughters. And the daughters still stay in contact (in fact, one of 'em is married to a fellow aviator, we live in the same neighborhood, and our children play together).

Every year the POWs get together (often at Ross Perot's ranch) and honor their fallen comrades. I've been lucky enough to go to 2 reunions... it is a humbling experience. Very down to earth characters and most of them lead very successful lives after the military.

Take care!