OT- Should Pete Rose be reinstated?

[BC867]

I dont like steroid users either, but atleast PED's are used with the intent of winning. You know what I mean? It's at the very least in the spirit of competition albiet unfair and illegal competition.

Gambling is a whole other animal. Pete used his position to manipulate the outcome of games. How many games did they lose that they might have won because Pete was shaving runs? What Pete did damages the integrity of the game far more than guys trying to gain an advantage in an effort to win.

I'm not defending PED users, I dont think their individual records should stand if they are caught cheating. But gambling is just, different. Everyone knows it is the #1 sin in baseball. There was already precedent with the Whitesox.

Forgivness is divine, but some rules just cant be broken.

I agree. Pete Rose broke a cardinal rule of baseball, ever since the Black Sox scandal. You don't bet on games in which you participate or have inside information. (Especially with the control you have as the Manager of the team.)

He has shown no remorse and his arrogance shows no promise of that changing. An example of that is the stupid TV commercial he did about "not being allowed in the Hall". He gloats now. Imagine how obnoxious he would be if he were allowed in.

Pete Rose is not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. But even he knows you don't decide which games to bet on as Manager. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. That doesn't change over time.

As far as comparing Rose to the dopers, there is no comparison. Especially considering that MLB and the teams' Front Offices knew what was going on and looked the other way for the sake of revenue. Still, I don't believe the players who cheated should be rewarded. It is not fair to those who didn't.

 

[BillsCarnage]

IMO he should be in the hall but should never work for a team again.

I agree, but will one up you. He should never be allowed to work in any position in the MLB - team or league.

The gambling occurred while he was a manager not a player. What he did as a player is what he should be in the HOF for.

I mean if he's going to be ostracized by the league, then why not erase the records too??? It's time to separate the player from the manager.

 

[BigRedRage]

The mlb owns stock in either draft kind or fan duel yet has problems with Pete rose

Sent from my XT1056 using Tapatalk

 

[Phrazbit]

I agree, but will one up you. He should never be allowed to work in any position in the MLB - team or league.

The gambling occurred while he was a manager not a player. What he did as a player is what he should be in the HOF for.

I mean if he's going to be ostracized by the league, then why not erase the records too??? It's time to separate the player from the manager.

It came out within the last year that he gambled as a player too.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_...ines-shows-pete-rose-bet-baseball-player-1986

It is the greatest sin in baseball. Maybe after he dies the Hall can list his record somewhere (they may already, not sure), but he should never get a bust and he should never have a ceremony.

 

[Dback Jon]

I agree. Pete Rose broke a cardinal rule of baseball, ever since the Black Sox scandal. You don't bet on games in which you participate or have inside information. (Especially with the control you have as the Manager of the team.)

He has shown no remorse and his arrogance shows no promise of that changing. An example of that is the stupid TV commercial he did about "not being allowed in the Hall". He gloats now. Imagine how obnoxious he would be if he were allowed in.

Pete Rose is not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. But even he knows you don't decide which games to bet on as Manager. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. That doesn't change over time.

As far as comparing Rose to the dopers, there is no comparison. Especially considering that MLB and the teams' Front Offices knew what was going on and looked the other way for the sake of revenue. Still, I don't believe the players who cheated should be rewarded. It is not fair to those who didn't.[/QUOTE]


We can elect that player into the hall.

 

[Southpaw]

Sports would not be nearly as popular if it weren't for "betting". The only ones who would lose out or win if Pete gambled on his own games are the bookies and gamblers. How's that for protecting the integrity of the game?

 

[DeAnna]

I dont like steroid users either, but atleast PED's are used with the intent of winning. But gambling is just, different. Everyone knows it is the #1 sin in baseball.

Well of course, because it involves $$$. Never mind PED, domestic violence, arrests, etc. Those do not involve the almight dollar. But gambling - omg! it's horrible!

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm getting the impression that some here think betting isn't that big of a deal because its something the general public does all the time and those Rose was betting ON his team.

Rose was selectively betting, Rose was using his inside knowledge of the lineups and health and plans of his team to gamble. Furthermore Rose did this while managing the Reds, and if you don't think Rose managed games differently when he had money on them vs when he didn't then you're nuts. Sure, he isn't "throwing the game" like the White Sox did but if Rose knows he has 50 grand on Tuesday's game then the way baseball and rotations and rest work then he is going to treat his team differently, rest certain guys before and after and treat that one game like its game 7 of the WS. And what does it say about the games Rose does not bet on?

It is literally about the integrity and honesty of the game. What he was doing was cut from the same cloth as the Black Sox scandal.

 

[Dback Jon]

I'm getting the impression that some here think betting isn't that big of a deal because its something the general public does all the time and those Rose was betting ON his team.

Rose was selectively betting, Rose was using his inside knowledge of the lineups and health and plans of his team to gamble. Furthermore Rose did this while managing the Reds, and if you don't think Rose managed games differently when he had money on them vs when he didn't then you're nuts. Sure, he isn't "throwing the game" like the White Sox did but if Rose knows he has 50 grand on Tuesday's game then the way baseball and rotations and rest work then he is going to treat his team differently, rest certain guys before and after and treat that one game like its game 7 of the WS. And what does it say about the games Rose does not bet on?

It is literally about the integrity and honesty of the game. What he was doing was cut from the same cloth as the Black Sox scandal.

Those are some awesome points, and ones I hadn't fully considered.

 

[PDXChris]

I'm getting the impression that some here think betting isn't that big of a deal because its something the general public does all the time and those Rose was betting ON his team.

Rose was selectively betting, Rose was using his inside knowledge of the lineups and health and plans of his team to gamble. Furthermore Rose did this while managing the Reds, and if you don't think Rose managed games differently when he had money on them vs when he didn't then you're nuts. Sure, he isn't "throwing the game" like the White Sox did but if Rose knows he has 50 grand on Tuesday's game then the way baseball and rotations and rest work then he is going to treat his team differently, rest certain guys before and after and treat that one game like its game 7 of the WS. And what does it say about the games Rose does not bet on?

It is literally about the integrity and honesty of the game. What he was doing was cut from the same cloth as the Black Sox scandal.

I get what you are saying and feel he should not be reinstated because of it. I also would like him to get his name in the HOF as a player. he doesn't have to have his bust in there, but something about being the all time hit leader.

As far as the part about the integrity and honesty of the game. I think players everyday do similar things. Play harder in their contract season, mail it in after getting paid and sit longer than needed with injured to ensure they will come back at peak to have better numbers. Stephen Strasburg, Stephen Drew and Matt Harvey have all done this recently. Granted, they are all under Scott Boras, but to me they are also putting into question the integrity and honesty of the game. How many time is Harvey taking a little off his fastball to ensure he gets one more payday by hitting his innings for a season? The paycheck is becoming more important than winning. Isn't that the same as gambling?

Again, not saying Rose should be reinstated, just pointing out that professional sports is flawed and there are very few perfect players.

 

[DWKB]

I get what you are saying and feel he should not be reinstated because of it. I also would like him to get his name in the HOF as a player. he doesn't have to have his bust in there, but something about being the all time hit leader.

I'm going out on a limb and guessing you've never been to Cooperatown and I'm not sure why it's so important to you since you haven't visited.

As far as the part about the integrity and honesty of the game. I think players everyday do similar things. Play harder in their contract season, mail it in after getting paid and sit longer than needed with injured to ensure they will come back at peak to have better numbers. Stephen Strasburg, Stephen Drew and Matt Harvey have all done this recently. Granted, they are all under Scott Boras, but to me they are also putting into question the integrity and honesty of the game. How many time is Harvey taking a little off his fastball to ensure he gets one more payday by hitting his innings for a season? The paycheck is becoming more important than winning. Isn't that the same as gambling?

No, it's not the same. These people aren't exposing themselves to debt and bookies for one.

Again, not saying Rose should be reinstated, just pointing out that professional sports is flawed and there are very few perfect players.

Some are worse than others. Rose has to be one of the worst in the modern era IMO.

 

[Phrazbit]

I get what you are saying and feel he should not be reinstated because of it. I also would like him to get his name in the HOF as a player. he doesn't have to have his bust in there, but something about being the all time hit leader.

As far as the part about the integrity and honesty of the game. I think players everyday do similar things. Play harder in their contract season, mail it in after getting paid and sit longer than needed with injured to ensure they will come back at peak to have better numbers. Stephen Strasburg, Stephen Drew and Matt Harvey have all done this recently. Granted, they are all under Scott Boras, but to me they are also putting into question the integrity and honesty of the game. How many time is Harvey taking a little off his fastball to ensure he gets one more payday by hitting his innings for a season? The paycheck is becoming more important than winning. Isn't that the same as gambling?

Again, not saying Rose should be reinstated, just pointing out that professional sports is flawed and there are very few perfect players.

No, I don't think its the same. Those guys are making choices, perhaps selfish ones, that impact their own livelihood, no different that any employee in any profession who might not give their best effort in differing circumstances.

Gambling as a player is more like insider trading, very bad, gambling as a manager is essentially stock manipulation. It cuts straight to the core of the integrity of the game. It impacts not just the games they bet on but the games they choose not to. Furthermore... what happens if they run bad and end up deep in the hole to whatever shady middleman they were running through? Well, we've seen that happen once when that NBA ref got himself in debt to the mob. Supposedly he was merely betting on games he had no hand in but had insider knowledge of... at first, up until he got deep in the hole and started manipulating games for the mob.

I honestly think Rose's sin was on the same level as the Black Sox. Sure, they threw games, but if you're betting one game and not betting the next couple... what does that say?

 

[BC867]

I'm getting the impression that some here think betting isn't that big of a deal because its something the general public does all the time and those Rose was betting ON his team.

Rose was selectively betting, Rose was using his inside knowledge of the lineups and health and plans of his team to gamble. Furthermore Rose did this while managing the Reds, and if you don't think Rose managed games differently when he had money on them vs when he didn't then you're nuts. Sure, he isn't "throwing the game" like the White Sox did but if Rose knows he has 50 grand on Tuesday's game then the way baseball and rotations and rest work then he is going to treat his team differently, rest certain guys before and after and treat that one game like its game 7 of the WS. And what does it say about the games Rose does notbet on?

It is literally about the integrity and honesty of the game. What he was doing was cut from the same cloth as the Black Sox scandal.

Very well said! They call it insider trading on Wall Street (as described by Wikipedia).

Insider trading is the trading of a public company's stock or other securities (such as bonds or stock options) by individuals with access to nonpublic information about the company.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insider_trading

Not only did Rose have access to non-public information. He was in the decision making capacity to affect it.

Also, though to a lesser degree, when he was betting as a player.

That should not be rewarded.

 

[Iceman]

He will at least be in the Reds HOF

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/14600968/pete-rose-inducted-reds-hall-fame

 

[NJCardFan]

The story goes that Pete accepted the "lifetime ban" with the caveat that it would be lifted in the future. Bart Giammatti upped and died and the lifting did not take place.

Mickey Mantle, Ferguson Jenkins and Willie Mays were given lifetime bans by Bowie Kuhn, yet they are in the HOF and remain there. Hypocrisy reigns.

Apples meet oranges. Mantle and Mays were involved with an Atlantic City casino hence Kuhn's arbitrary decision to tell them it's either the casino or baseball so they chose the casino. This also happened years after their playing careers and when they were already in the Hall of Fame. Also, neither Mays, Mantle, nor Jenkins were banned for breaking baseball's oldest and most sacred rule. Implemented in the early 1920's the rule states that if you bet on baseball you will get a minimum of a 1 year suspension or a maximum of a lifetime ban if your wagering involves the team in which you play or are in the employ. This rule is posted in every major and minor league ballpark involved with MLB in any shape, way or form. This isn't some secret rule to be twisted at the whim of whoever is imposing it. It's in plain English(and I'd bet Spanish). Pete Rose knew damned well that this rule existed but he chose to thumb his nose at the league and let his ego get the better of him. Worse yet, he denied ever betting on the Reds(or Phillies or Expos(how many remember Pete as an Expo) for that matter) for years and years. Had he come out right away and admitted what he did, admitted he had a gambling addiction then maybe I'd be more sympathetic but instead he chose to be the pompous ass he is. Believe me, I know of what I speak. I've met him several times and he is a 1st class douchebag.

Now some may say that Pete was too much of a competitor to bet against the Reds but think about it. As manager he had the ability to make certain calls, however subtle they may be, to influence run differential things like that. Also, for those who equate it with someone like Gaylord Perry or those involved in PED's, again there are glaring differences. For starters, Perry was cheating to help his team win. Same with PED users. Also, PED's weren't tested for until the 2000's but be that as it may, there is no hard line written rule that if you take PED's and are caught you are banned for life unless you get caught, I believe, 3 times.

 

[BC867]

This rule is posted in every major and minor league ballpark involved with MLB in any shape, way or form ...

He chose to be the pompous ass he is. Believe me, I know of what I speak. I've met him several times and he is a 1st class douchebag ...

He has already demonstrated that to the the public, as well. Profiting from that commercial in the hall(way).

He has demonstrated himself to be arrogant and would do anything for a buck. That's a bad combination. It should never be rewarded.

 

[oaken1]

Pete Rose was my favorite player as a kid.. he and Johnny Bench. When he was banned I walked away from baseball as a fan.....have not missed it one bit...I do occasionally watch the series...once every few years...

I found that coaching little league is much better than watching pros

MLB can dissolve tomorrow, coopertown can burn to the ground,....and I will still throw chicken on the grill for dinner

Pete made the decisions he made.... but IMO he should be in the hall...maybe not now,..but as someone else said...after he dies...the accomplishments merit enshrinement even if the man does not.

 

[cardfaninfl]

the accomplishments merit enshrinement even if the man does not.

Mussolini made the trains run on time. Nobody is pure good or pure bad, but one can greatly overshadow the other. Rose made his bed, and nobody should excuse him having to sleep in it. Using his numbers as a justification does not change that the Hall is a privilege not a right.

 

[oaken1]

Mussolini made the trains run on time. Nobody is pure good or pure bad, but one can greatly overshadow the other. Rose made his bed, and nobody should excuse him having to sleep in it. Using his numbers as a justification does not change that the Hall is a privilege not a right.

So make it better still... place a faceless bust in the hall bearing a plaque with the accomplishments and no player name...maybe just a number.

 

[BC867]

Rose made his bed, and nobody should excuse him having to sleep in it. Using his numbers as a justification does not change that the Hall is a privilege not a right.

Shoeless Joe Jackson has the third-highest career batting average in major league history. Babe Ruth said that he modeled his hitting technique after Jackson.

Still, nothing has changed for him in 97 years since the scandal. That is the precedent for Rose. As it should be.

How right you are. The Hall of Fame is a privilege, not a right.

The Reds have chosen to honor him on a local basis. That should more than appease Pete Rose fans.