OUT LOUD: Thomas Jones

[CaptTurbo]

What I always remember about Jones was how he always saved his best performance for the NY Giants. The guy just reached down and pulled out all the stops whenever he lined up against the G-Men.

In 6 games against the Giants he gutted out 116 yards on 54 carries.

What a player.

 

[Pariah]

That was usually when Arizona fan was booing him and begging Marcel Shipp to come in and rush against some prevent defenses.

Do you live in some bizzarro world where the fans--especially AZ fans--hold any sway about who goes in and who comes out of a game?

Also, go back to the previous page. I asked you a question you seem to have missed.

 

[football karma]

Um... he got 364 yards in just the month of December, and had two games over 130 yards rushing. He also scored 3 TDs. Wanna know how many TDs Marcel Shipp scored in 2003? I don't even have to look it up: 0. Wanna know how many rushing TDs Michael Pittman had that season? 0. Wanna know how many TDs Thomas Jones has scored since everybody decided that Marcel Shipp was the long-term answer at the position? 19.

You don't even know what you're talking about here.

K9- turn down the condescention meter please.

My point is not that Shipp is better than Jones. My point is that Jones was very middle of the road until this year. Could it be it took a few years to figure things out? Maybe. Could it be he was one of those guys who decided the situation wasnt one to his liking, so he ran at 75% of capacity? I think the possibility needs to be considered.


Dont take my word for it -- the Bucs had him up close for a full year and let him go. The Bears invested fairly big dollars in him, and after one year drafted Cedric Benson to take his place. If TJ was all that, neither of those organizations would have done those things.

 

[phillycard]

last i saw the team's record this year was 5-11. how much pulling up did they really do?

Ouchie, please. You know damn well without those two, we're nowhere near in a position to win the Skins game, the Jags game, the first Rams game, or the Panthers game. Besides, attitudes are contagious and cats like Fitz and Quan actually make teammates want to play for the Cardinals. That's what it's all about. Granted w's and l's are huge, but part of turning us around will be the attitude throughout the team. We need more players at every position like them if we are to be successful.

 

[phillycard]

DC, when's the last time 2 receivers on a bad team "thrived" to the tune of 100 catches a piece? I won't deny your statement, but Q and Fitz are elite receivers on any team.

 

[Russ Smith]

Wide receivers always thrive on bad teams.

I remember when David Boston was putting up big numbers, and there would be numerous threads about how he would get 2000 yards if we didn't have such a terrible QB. Somehow those people overlooked his poor hands and inability to run after the catch. I'm not saying Fitz and Q are anything like DB, but if they played on a better team, their numbers wouldn't be so high.

I think Jones showed talent here but never consistently played well. And it's pretty clear from his own words he didn't want to be here.

On Boston, bad hands yes, but his ~1600 yard season he led the entire NFL in YAC so it's hard to say he wasn't very good at it. Different style than Boldin, didn't make everyone miss, but he was at that point much faster than people realized and was able to outrun a lot of bad angles. His TD right before halftime in the 49er game that year was typical, caught a short crossing pattern and outran the angle for a long TD. He just got too big and lost his speed way too fast.

The other thing I learned with Boston from watching Jake in Denver is that Boston was REALLY bad about adjusting to balls in the air, especially deep balls. I've seen Jake hook up with Smith and Lelie over and over and yeah the balls are not always perfectly thrown and deep balls are often underthrown, but these guys ADJUST and still catch them. Boston didn't do that, if it was underthrown he'd just keep going and then pout. I know you complained several times of his lack of effort to break up INT's and pretty clear you were right, if the throw wasn't perfect, Boston just couldn't be bothered to adjust. Saw the same thing in San Diego. That was one thing I blamed on Jake that was clearly not his fault. Even Peyton's WR's have to adjust to deep throws.
In fact I kind of think Boston almost did it on purpose, instead of slowing I'm going to speed up to really make the throw look bad. So glad we let that guy go to San Diego.

 

[jefftheshark]

David Boston infected Jones with his bad attitude from day one, and who knows how many other players followed his lead. Rice did the same thing to Mark Smith and the rest of the d-line years earlier. I'm not saying that they did not have legimate reasons to be unhappy, but the true definition of "professional" is putting your personal feelings aside and doing what is necessary to make the team successful.

Of all of our current faults, attitude does not seem to one of them.

The Shark

 

[Pariah]

What the hell does that have to do with Jones' numbers in TB? Seriously, I'd like to know.

Bump for K9.

 

[kerouac9]

Bump for K9.

Sigh. The implication was that Thomas Jones performed poorly or below expectations in Tampa Bay, which wasn't the case. Not only did he far outperform his replacement (Shipp), but he got a big deal and a starting job for a high-profile franchise. There were still people saying after the 2004 season that Marcel Shipp only needs a chance to show that he's an NFL-caliber starting 'back, many were even saying that he reminded them of Priest Holmes (HA ha ha ha ha ha ha). Many, many here laughed at Chicago for giving TJ anything, and saying that that franchise was going to go nowhere.

Instead, Thomas Jones has gotten better each season in Chicago, including keeping a high-first round pick on the bench and being one of the Top 10 runners in the NFL this season. The guy obviously is a bum with no heart and even less talent. Thomas Jones has carried the Bears' offense on his back the past two seasons, since no one here has noticed.

Maybe you don't think that Thomas Jones outperforming his replacement in basically every way is relevant to the kind of player he is. I happen to.

 

[Pariah]

Maybe you don't think that Thomas Jones outperforming his replacement in basically every way is relevant to the kind of player he is. I happen to.

Sigh. If he were replacing a player in TB, then yes, it would. But, since you're talking about a guy that isn't playing in the same offense and doesn't have the same line, it's not really looking at apples and oranges, is it? In fact, if you're going to compare the two, the best way to do it is to look at what TJ did when he was the starter in AZ and what Shipp did as his replacement.

But, since that's not what was at issue, this is really just another Shipp bashing post for you.

 

[NEZCardsfan]

Maybe you don't think that Thomas Jones outperforming his replacement in basically every way is relevant to the kind of player he is. I happen to.

HUH??

2003:
TJ
137 att 627 yards 4.6 ypc 3 TDS
Shipp
228 att 830 yards 3.6 ypc 0 TDS

2002:
TJ
138 att 511 yards 3.7 ypc 2 TDS
Shipp
188 att 834 yards 4.4 ypc 6 TDS

2003 was a split. Shipp more attempts and yards. TJ more ypc and TDs. And Shipp did that with probably the worst Cards team ever.

2002, Shipp smashed TJ in every category.

 

[DCCardsFan]

I think Jones showed talent here but never consistently played well. And it's pretty clear from his own words he didn't want to be here.

On Boston, bad hands yes, but his ~1600 yard season he led the entire NFL in YAC so it's hard to say he wasn't very good at it. Different style than Boldin, didn't make everyone miss, but he was at that point much faster than people realized and was able to outrun a lot of bad angles. His TD right before halftime in the 49er game that year was typical, caught a short crossing pattern and outran the angle for a long TD. He just got too big and lost his speed way too fast.

The other thing I learned with Boston from watching Jake in Denver is that Boston was REALLY bad about adjusting to balls in the air, especially deep balls. I've seen Jake hook up with Smith and Lelie over and over and yeah the balls are not always perfectly thrown and deep balls are often underthrown, but these guys ADJUST and still catch them. Boston didn't do that, if it was underthrown he'd just keep going and then pout. I know you complained several times of his lack of effort to break up INT's and pretty clear you were right, if the throw wasn't perfect, Boston just couldn't be bothered to adjust. Saw the same thing in San Diego. That was one thing I blamed on Jake that was clearly not his fault. Even Peyton's WR's have to adjust to deep throws.
In fact I kind of think Boston almost did it on purpose, instead of slowing I'm going to speed up to really make the throw look bad. So glad we let that guy go to San Diego.

I never complained about DB's effort. I just said he wasn't that talented (despite all the roids). I was shunned like a leper when I said stuff like that. The only time I ever complained about effort was Freddie Jones, Simeon Rice and Lester Holmes. Those guys were bums. I'm surprised most people didn't see it.

Lelie and Rod Smith are able to "adjust" to poorly thrown deep balls simply beacuse they are generally open, and JP doesn't throw deep to them unless they are in single coverage. If you are open and there is no safety help, the defensive back has a hard time finding and adjusting to the ball, no matter how poorly the ball is thrown - half the time, they'll interfere with the WR if the ball is underthrown. DB didn't get that luxury. He played against a 2-deep zone most of the time.

I'm not a stat guy. You know that. But I take your word for it that he led the league in YAC. That must be the most misleading stat of all time. He rarely made anybody miss. I remember him taking a slant the whole way on third and long against an injured Charles Woodson, but it wasn't exactly a missed tackle. I remember another good TD where he stiff-armed a couple guys. But generally, he made the catch, juked himslef out, and went down.

On another subject: does anyone really think the NFL has a decent roids policy? I get the feeling that almost everyone is taking them. There simply is no deterrent. It takes three positive tests (none of which are "surprise" tests) to even get it made public, right?

Of course, someone who takes roids starting in their teens is burned out by 28. Like any other drug, at some point once you've used enough you have to take them just to get where everyone else is naturally.

Bonds and Clemens did it the right way - they were natural until their 30s - they started late enough that they didn't cut their careers short ala Roy Jones Jr, Tyson, Canseco, etc.

Roids do have a practical application: Guys go into their 70s or 80s before they really start to lose their testosterone levels. At that point, they rapidly lose muscle mass and literally shrink. Of course, if they took some supplements, their lives would be much more fulfilling. Too bad stupid young guys ruin it for those who really need it.........

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Here's a pretty easy question.Who would you've rather had carrying the ball for the Cards last season Jones or Shipp. DG is right. The Cards gave up too early on Jones.His numbers in 2003 weren't bad at all but that's back when Mac and Graves were on their high-motor, no talent kick and wanted guys like Shipp, Tanner, and Fred Wakefield(at DE) to be the "belly" of the team. I'm not a fan of what Jones said but he was just doing an interview and it's fashionable to bash the Cards franchise as it was run in those years. Did you expect him to say the Cards gave him every oppurtunity and he just wasn't good enough? You have to remember alot of these so-called bad attitudes and cancers were not regarded in that way coming out of college.I know Boston wasn't. I just think we had a woefully inept coaching staff and players never got better and became frustrated. That happens on bad teams. It got so bad in Cincy that they had to put a clause in every players contract that they couldn't bad mouth the team.