Parallels to 2004 offseason

[1Sun]

Well I did contradict myself saying they could get Russel then salary wise didn't realize I put couldn't instead of wouldn't, I'm busy so im not debating every stupid point in this argument anymore, only one I'm going to mention is the JJ one. Saying JJ has more potential than Cam, who was their leading scorer not really a role player, in a basketball standpoint is obvious , JJ mostly devalues himself with his MANY off the court issues , this isn't the NFL, the cowboys aren't knocking on our door to get this Trainwreck of a kid, they gave up almost nothing to get rid of him, most consider that a win

To his credit, Cam had a decent PER of 25.30, good for 95th in the country. Of course, those with better PERs include Tacko Fall (25.46, 88th), PJ Washington (26.05, 74th), Jarrett Culver (26.19, 67th), Charles Bassey (26.31, T62nd), Jaxson Hayes (27.51, T45th), Shamorie Ponds (27.54, 43rd), Bruno Fernando (28.36, 31st), Daniel Gafford (29.10, 22nd), Mfiondu Kabengele (29.28, 19th), Ethan Happ (29.43, 16th), Rui Hachimura (30.34, 13th), Grant Williams (31.04, 11th) and Brandon Clarke (37.73, 2nd).

Again, a lot comes down to how one's game translates to the NBA, not just pure college stats.

 

[GatorAZ]

But we didn't know that at the time.

He was all-nba in Dallas. It was his back that was really the question mark after a poor 03-04’ season. If we made that same signing in today’s age of social media it would’ve been ugly lol.

 

[elindholm]

I like the Rubio signing, but the Rubio-Nash comparisons need to stop. Nash had a been a two-time All-Star in Dallas before coming (back) to Phoenix, and was one of the clear leaders on a Mavericks roster that won as many as 60 games one season. He was, even then, in an entirely different category from where Rubio is.

 

[1Sun]

I like the Rubio signing, but the Rubio-Nash comparisons need to stop. Nash had a been a two-time All-Star in Dallas before coming (back) to Phoenix, and was one of the clear leaders on a Mavericks roster that won as many as 60 games one season. He was, even then, in an entirely different category from where Rubio is.

Yup. Rubio as a point guard now is more comparable to what Q Richardson was as a wing then.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I like the Rubio signing, but the Rubio-Nash comparisons need to stop. Nash had a been a two-time All-Star in Dallas before coming (back) to Phoenix, and was one of the clear leaders on a Mavericks roster that won as many as 60 games one season. He was, even then, in an entirely different category from where Rubio is.

I don’t think it is meant as a head to head comparison, but to compare the situation of adding a good passing PG to a young, athletic, talented roster.

 

[1Sun]

I don’t think it is meant as a head to head comparison, but to compare the situation of adding a good passing PG to a young, athletic, talented roster.

Except that the roster is no longer athletic, and it isn't exceptionally talented, either.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Decent? Define decent. What I see is a bad team that gave up the majority of their future assets to avoid another 20 win season. Where is the hope? Outside of Booker/Ayton, which young player on this team shows any star potential?

Paying guys like Rubio 17M per year to be less of an embarrassment makes sense in a vacuum, but when it forces you to dump a bunch of other assets for a player that isn't the long term answer, what's the point?

Is putting a bad/capped out/minimally talented team satisfying to you?

this is my fear.

 

[SunnyBaller]

To his credit, Cam had a decent PER of 25.30, good for 95th in the country. Of course, those with better PERs include Tacko Fall (25.46, 88th), PJ Washington (26.05, 74th), Jarrett Culver (26.19, 67th), Charles Bassey (26.31, T62nd), Jaxson Hayes (27.51, T45th), Shamorie Ponds (27.54, 43rd), Bruno Fernando (28.36, 31st), Daniel Gafford (29.10, 22nd), Mfiondu Kabengele (29.28, 19th), Ethan Happ (29.43, 16th), Rui Hachimura (30.34, 13th), Grant Williams (31.04, 11th) and Brandon Clarke (37.73, 2nd).

Again, a lot comes down to how one's game translates to the NBA, not just pure college stats.

Exactly and we haven't seen it yet, he was a good shooter and shooting tends to translate, I'm honestly higher on Cam than Culver because of that fact , I hated the spot we took Cam at but not the actual prospect part , I think he's going to have a good role right off the bat hitting threes off the bench which isn't flashy but sadly would be one of the better rookie results the sun's have had in the past decade

 

[JCSunsfan]

Decent? Define decent. What I see is a bad team that gave up the majority of their future assets to avoid another 20 win season. Where is the hope? Outside of Booker/Ayton, which young player on this team shows any star potential?

Paying guys like Rubio 17M per year to be less of an embarrassment makes sense in a vacuum, but when it forces you to dump a bunch of other assets for a player that isn't the long term answer, what's the point?

Is putting a bad/capped out/minimally talented team satisfying to you?

OK. I just have a couple questions.

1. We have two players with star potential, how is that bad?
2. I get giving up more assets than we like, but we gave up TJ Warren, and second-round picks. Josh Jackson was no longer an asset. I guess the Milwaukee pick was an asset, but not much of one.
3. How are we capped out? We have $42 million in cap room available next summer. Of course, that depends upon the Oubre signing. Honestly, the way to have the most flexibility moving forward might be in NOT overpaying Oubre. I have been for resigning Oubre at $15 million or so, but who knows how wise that might actually be. They will have to make a decision about Saric and Baynes of course.

 

[Cheesebeef]

OK. I just have a couple questions.

1. We have two players with star potential, how is that bad?

here's my biggest fear with our two players with star potential... I tend to think that's all their potential is, as stars, probably All-Stars, but not superstars. Superstars can control games entirely on their own and most of them (James Harden excepted) are great on both ends of the court and Booker and Ayton don't bring that quality on the defensive end.

So, if we've just got two stars, I feel like we need at least another star level player to really compete for a title. Bridges ain't that guy. Neither is Oubre. I think they can both turn into GREAT 4th bananas, but if this team is ever going to make that major leap, it's probably gonna have to come from next year's lotto which I think most of us agree we'll be in again.

Don't remember who asked and what thread it was, but someone brought up what type of player is needed as the third piece next summer and I think it's definitely a star PG of the future. Rubio's only here for 3 years and is a stop-gap at the absolute best. I don't believe he's a legit starter at PG on a title team and apparently Utah agrees. But if we are lucky enough to go PG in next year's lotto which is supposed to have a better PG class then that guy can sit and watch Rubio from bench while getting his feet wet slowly in year 1 (rubies' year 2) and then take over the starting position in his second year (rubio's year 3) and hopefully then we're off to the races.

 

[Mainstreet]

OK. I just have a couple questions.

1. We have two players with star potential, how is that bad?
2. I get giving up more assets than we like, but we gave up TJ Warren, and second-round picks. Josh Jackson was no longer an asset. I guess the Milwaukee pick was an asset, but not much of one.
3. How are we capped out? We have $42 million in cap room available next summer. Of course, that depends upon the Oubre signing. Honestly, the way to have the most flexibility moving forward might be in NOT overpaying Oubre. I have been for resigning Oubre at $15 million or so, but who knows how wise that might actually be. They will have to make a decision about Saric and Baynes of course.

Facts don't have a chance in these discussions JC.

Ty Jerome looks to be a nice addition at #24 using the Bucks pick.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

OK. I just have a couple questions.

1. We have two players with star potential, how is that bad? It's ok, I guess. Considering what we've been through over the last 9 years, it's really sad that Book/Ayton is all we have, but here we are.

2. I get giving up more assets than we like, but we gave up TJ Warren, and second-round picks. Josh Jackson was no longer an asset. I guess the Milwaukee pick was an asset, but not much of one.

In and of itself, it's not like any of those assets were fantastic, but whether big or small, getting the better end of the deal should always be the priority. As far back as giving away Chandler for nothing, and then following it up this offseason by giving nearly any additional asset of value away, I see us as the loser of almost all those deals.

3. How are we capped out? We have $42 million in cap room available next summer. Of course, that depends upon the Oubre signing. Honestly, the way to have the most flexibility moving forward might be in NOT overpaying Oubre. I have been for resigning Oubre at $15 million or so, but who knows how wise that might actually be. They will have to make a decision about Saric and Baynes of course.

Capped out in terms of being forced to make moves based on cap considerations - the entire offseason is marked by this. Agree with you on Oubre - over $15M per year is a lot to pay for potential.

 

[JCSunsfan]

here's my biggest fear with our two players with star potential... I tend to think that's all their potential is, as stars, probably All-Stars, but not superstars. Superstars can control games entirely on their own and most of them (James Harden excepted) are great on both ends of the court and Booker and Ayton don't bring that quality on the defensive end.

So, if we've just got two stars, I feel like we need at least another star level player to really compete for a title. Bridges ain't that guy. Neither is Oubre. I think they can both turn into GREAT 4th bananas, but if this team is ever going to make that major leap, it's probably gonna have to come from next year's lotto which I think most of us agree we'll be in again.

Don't remember who asked and what thread it was, but someone brought up what type of player is needed as the third piece next summer and I think it's definitely a star PG of the future. Rubio's only here for 3 years and is a stop-gap at the absolute best. I don't believe he's a legit starter at PG on a title team and apparently Utah agrees. But if we are lucky enough to go PG in next year's lotto which is supposed to have a better PG class then that guy can sit and watch Rubio from bench while getting his feet wet slowly in year 1 (rubies' year 2) and then take over the starting position in his second year (rubio's year 3) and hopefully then we're off to the races.

It’s a lot easier to add the third star than the first two. It wasn’t that long ago that we had none.

 

[SunnyBaller]

You started with your moronic "haven't seen how these moves will turn out" post, and aren't disappointing with your follow up.



Wow, now you're straight up lying. It's literally what you said.





Let's continue down the list of logical fallacies - straw man anyone? Crazy idea here - why not take the best player, or if you're infatuated for some reason for a late 20's pick, then why not trade down? Basic understanding of asset management here.



Please show me a draft profile or provide an argument that he's anything but a role player. He's 23! He's been in college basketball long enough to actually show what he is - a knock down 3 point shooter. He can't defend the 2/3/4, he doesn't create, and was projected late first round because he IS a 23 year old role player, and doesn't have the requisite athleticism to make a leap. This isn't my opinion - it's the consensus among the basketball world.






If you can't see the difference in potential from a 23 year old college role player and a 22 year old #4 overall pick lauded for his athleticism, I don't know what to tell you.



And complete your masterpiece with an ad hominem...well done! Still waiting for something substantive - I'm not holding my breath.

Alright I'm done with work and ready to critique your argument, since you're word choice reminded of my logic course a few years back I thought I'd follow your lead. I'll only refer to your first response since the second one commits several subjective fallacies ( but who's post on here doesn't?) and is a pretty blatant disregard of the LAAPs among other things.

1st response - "oh boy you're leading with this" made me laugh this is a sports forum sorry I didn't take the time to introduce myself and didn't formally present the main premise of my idea

2nd- we agreed on the Warren trade , 6 for 11 and a year of Saric as a overpay isnt really something you can conclude until next year, mainly if Saric does good and resigns, salary we give him could be debated, and Cam which value to the team I would assume is greater his rookie year whether or not Culver develops into anything tips that argument, bottom line you have to wait and see for that one, none of our posts provide any support for the conclusion of a good/bad trade

3rd/4th- looking at the trades during this off-season from all teams you can see the value of cap space was at an all time high, JJs cap was 7mil(don't feel like looking up the exact amount but I know something close to that), that number is much higher than is worth bast off statistics he's put up so far. JJ has potential on the court just because he was bad his first two years doesn't mean he can't turn it around, however he is a bust as a person, I mean the guy got his daughter high! Sun's being a young and most likely impressionable team (as young people are) was not something Jones wanted and from reports other teams weren't knocking on their door to take a flier. Long term ( unless he stays out of jail and becomes at minimum a solid 6th man type player) the trade is within the sun's best interest.

5th- phone auto corrected to the wrong word, if you look at it I said they had a chance at Russell then I misspelled and immediately saying they don't, doesn't make any sense, but going off my uncorrected post yes you are right they could easily nothing to debate their

6th- Decent in my opinion would be players that either contribute to a. Winning basketball or b. Aid in the development of our young cornerstones, I said when we signed Rubio I didn't like it because we over paid for a PG so no I wasn't happy with that other than the fact that he is better than what we had last year by a mile, and the point behind that is a stop gap , most likely for the PG I presume we'll pick in the PG loaded draft class next year. And we have quite a bit of cap next year as it stands right now so Im not sure what that statement really meant considering there aren't any free agents left to sign

Am I happy with the off-season? eh. but we've had ALOT worse then this and the team is improved in several (albeit not necessarily substantial) ways

I assume this post is long so kudos to people who actually read the whole thing

 

[Bufalay]

Seriously?

From the JJ debacle, to sold draft picks, to the KT situation, every one of these decisions chipped away at a potential championship team.

That team was able to succeed in spite of stupid and ill advised moves!!!

Painting this offseason as anything other than a complete mismanagement of assets/FA is selling sand as water.

Steve Nash ain't walking through that door!

The pick used to dump Kurt Thomas was used to pick Ibaka who was traded to get Oladipo trade for Paul George traded for 100 picks. Presti is good.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It’s a lot easier to add the third star than the first two. It wasn’t that long ago that we had none.

you literally missed the entire point of my post.

 

[GatorAZ]

Prime Marion on this team would be amazing. That’s all I got.