Pat Kirwin's thoughts on hold outs

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Holding out for more money is not the answer

By Pat Kirwan
NFL.com Senior Analyst


(April 27, 2005) -- I have read just about enough about players who refuse to come in and work out in the offseason, about guys who get traded and want a new deal before they ever do anything for their new team (nice first impression), star players who feel they are grossly under paid even though they cashed checks for upward of $10 million dollars over the past year or so and teammates who support their teammates in their struggles for more money.

There's no reason to mention names at this point, but it's probably a good time to point out how things work. For the front-office executives and head coaches who have to deal with players that threaten not to show up for work and hang their dirty laundry out to the media because they want new contracts and more money, I have a few suggestions:

1. Minicamps (except for three days all offseason) and offseason workouts aren't mandatory, so don't take the bait from the players when they miss these sessions. Make it clear that re-negotiating contracts is just as voluntary as the workouts, and for every day they decide to volunteer to stay home, you will elect to 'volunteer' not to negotiate for a month. Has anyone reminded our young friends that there is only one NFL and if they don't play in this league, they don't play at all? Unless, of course, they want to find out what it feels like in a minor league.

2. For every player who stays out of practice, there is another player who is hungry and ready to seize the opportunity. We just saw 255 rookies get drafted, another 160 undrafted rookies will be signed and there are 150 guys over in NFL Europe developing their skills and maybe 50 tough young men in the Arena League and Canada who would do just about anything for an opportunity in the only high-paying football league in the world. Someone out there is a star waiting to be discovered. That's over 600 potential players being injected into the system in addition to the young developing athletes already on rosters.

3. Does any 5-foot-9 receiver sitting at home insisting he deserves more money or a running back who had one good season really think their team can't win without them? I say stop worrying about these kinds of players. And I don't care what wide receiver thinks he's indispensable. The fact is, the talent pool at that position never dries up and it's more about the quality of the quarterback who delivers the ball. Dan Marino made a lot of average receivers look pretty good and Tom Brady hasn't done a bad job of it either.

4. As for the players that use the favorite cry of "The clubs don't honor the contract, so why should we?" there are reasons teams fire players and don't stand by the length of the contract -- the length of the contract was never a real length of term and the player knew it all along. The club was trying to give the player a bigger signing bonus up front and, in agreement with the agent, extended the deal to amortize the bonus over a longer period of time. I always told the player when he signed what the logic was behind the deal and most executives do the same. It is amazing how many players and agents conveniently forget that when the player is cut. Front-office people probably need to go on record when a deal is done by saying something like, "We just signed Player X to a six-year deal but it really is a three-year deal in which we had to spread the big signing bonus out to fit under our salary cap. The player understands the structure."

5. To the teammates that feel they must support their holdout buddies by standing by them and never expressing their frustration that the team isn't getting better in the offseason, do me a favor: Call me when you get fired and those same guys send you a check to keep food on the table in your house. Trust me, it will never happen.

6. To the athletes who elect to stop team activities and somehow your story makes it to the media and it is splashed all over the Internet and print, make sure you have someone fully explain the possible negative effects to you as well as the possible positives. Sure, you may get a new deal and the disappearing act you pulled during the offseason will seem worth it. But maybe you will not get a new deal and just maybe the team decides to dump you just as soon as they find a capable replacement.

NFL coaches have learned two critical things in the past few years that help them deal with all the contract volatility that has arisen. Most of the 32 head coaches keep smiling and, when pressed by the media, don't show any emotion or dissatisfaction about their holdout player. The player should not misconstrue the public behavior their coach shows as a sign he understands you are worth more money -- he's trained to not make a bad story worse by reacting emotionally to it. Trust me, in a very short period of time behind closed doors with his coaching staff, he is going to focus on replacing you. That is the nature of the beast. The old saying "Out of sight, out of mind" eventually replaces the anxiety of "What will we do without him?" If you don't think that is true, there are veterans getting released by the day now as teams secured cheaper, young talent in the draft. And when June 1 comes along, there will be even more talented players on the market. There will be options and I doubt any player crying for a new contract truly understands the economic or talent pressure that is upon them.

Finally, every coach and front-office executive I know wants to win, and if they have a player on their team that can get them to that goal, they will pay them, as was seen when the Bengals paid Rudi Johnson and the Patriots redid Corey Dillon's deal this offseason. But please don't think your team is going to open up a can of worms by being forced into renegotiating because you think you're the one guy they can't live without. There are very few players that ever make it to that category. As one very good retired NFL player said to me this morning, "No one put a gun on to their head and made them sign the deal they have now. Don't ever let the player force the renegotiation."

Personally, I really want to see players get all they can while they're talented enough to play in the NFL, and since 1992, salaries paid to the players have gone from $1 billion to more than $3 billion today. Is it a perfect system? No, but it's pretty darn good and it's the only one in town.
 
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Stout

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What a crock. Yeah, WRs aren't important, it's okay for owners to deal with players how they want and not for players to do it too, always take a hard-line stance, blah blah blah...wow. Kirwin, you've officially gone off the deep end of credibility.
 

slanidrac16

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He hasn't gone off my deep end.

I too, am all for the players getting as much as they can. But when a player signs a contract.......it's a contract.

Thats not to say a contract can't be re-done, but many players go about it the wrong way. Take Boldin for instance. What good is it doing anybody for him not to partake in the mini camp? It's not boot camp. The object is to better prepare each player for the upcoming season for the sake of the team , the players, and the fans.

Wouldn't it be better for Q to show up ........run a few routes........catch a few passes.....mesh with his old and new teammates........talk to the fans and media? In fact he could even take the opportunity to express his desire for a new contract.

I just don't understand the object of not participating. I see no constructive reason not to.

Maybe some individual players have been promised deals behind the scenes and management has not been honest. Maybe there are players that have very good reason not to attend their teams practice. I don't know.

You know who is off the deep end and has lost all credibility. Terrell Owens. I'm not in no way shape or form comparing Q's situation with TO's. But every ninute of practice that Q misses because he hasn't struck a new deal does not enhance his stance with the coach or the fans.
 

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slanidrac16 said:
He hasn't gone off my deep end.

I too, am all for the players getting as much as they can. But when a player signs a contract.......it's a contract.

Thats not to say a contract can't be re-done, but many players go about it the wrong way. Take Boldin for instance. What good is it doing anybody for him not to partake in the mini camp? It's not boot camp. The object is to better prepare each player for the upcoming season for the sake of the team , the players, and the fans.

Wouldn't it be better for Q to show up ........run a few routes........catch a few passes.....mesh with his old and new teammates........talk to the fans and media? In fact he could even take the opportunity to express his desire for a new contract.

I just don't understand the object of not participating. I see no constructive reason not to.

Maybe some individual players have been promised deals behind the scenes and management has not been honest. Maybe there are players that have very good reason not to attend their teams practice. I don't know.

You know who is off the deep end and has lost all credibility. Terrell Owens. I'm not in no way shape or form comparing Q's situation with TO's. But every ninute of practice that Q misses because he hasn't struck a new deal does not enhance his stance with the coach or the fans.

I agree Owens is off the deep end, no question. But so is Kirwin.

Please. I hate player holdouts as much as the next person, and I'll probably get upset if Quan holds out. Still, show me an owner who actually does the right thing with players and honors player contracts fairly, and I'll gladly decry players who don't do the same. It simply isn't fair to cry foul on one side and not on the other.

Besides which, Kirwin made a lot of statements in the article that are just sheer idiocy.
 

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Stout said:
I agree Owens is off the deep end, no question. But so is Kirwin.

Please. I hate player holdouts as much as the next person, and I'll probably get upset if Quan holds out. Still, show me an owner who actually does the right thing with players and honors player contracts fairly, and I'll gladly decry players who don't do the same. It simply isn't fair to cry foul on one side and not on the other.

Besides which, Kirwin made a lot of statements in the article that are just sheer idiocy.
Bill Bidwill until a couple of years ago..
 

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Stout said:
Still, show me an owner who actually does the right thing with players and honors player contracts fairly, .


oh I am so sure youd just LOVE to be giving millions upon millions to players like Bryant and Johnson and Pace for being first rounders that did nothing. That IS honoring their contracts.
 

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slanidrac16 said:
He hasn't gone off my deep end.

I too, am all for the players getting as much as they can. But when a player signs a contract.......it's a contract.

Thats not to say a contract can't be re-done, but many players go about it the wrong way. Take Boldin for instance. What good is it doing anybody for him not to partake in the mini camp? It's not boot camp. The object is to better prepare each player for the upcoming season for the sake of the team , the players, and the fans.

Wouldn't it be better for Q to show up ........run a few routes........catch a few passes.....mesh with his old and new teammates........talk to the fans and media? In fact he could even take the opportunity to express his desire for a new contract.

I just don't understand the object of not participating. I see no constructive reason not to.

Maybe some individual players have been promised deals behind the scenes and management has not been honest. Maybe there are players that have very good reason not to attend their teams practice. I don't know.

You know who is off the deep end and has lost all credibility. Terrell Owens. I'm not in no way shape or form comparing Q's situation with TO's. But every ninute of practice that Q misses because he hasn't struck a new deal does not enhance his stance with the coach or the fans.

Is it really ok for a player to get "all he can"? Do you want your Doctor to get all he can? Do you want the Oil Cartel to get all they can for their oil? Get all you can is a philosophy I do not necessarily agree with. Bernie Evers and Enron Excecutives got all they could get. In Economics 101 you learn business or a player wants to maximize profits but this is trumped by they must also serve the public good or interest. We as fans and customers pay for these people who "get all they can". We have taken a giant step in the last few decades to applaud entertainers and others who "get all they can". Look for a real hero who you find that sometimes takes less they he can get to stay with his company or team out of loyalty or some higher motive than greed.
 

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slanidrac16 said:
He hasn't gone off my deep end.

I too, am all for the players getting as much as they can. But when a player signs a contract.......it's a contract.

Thats not to say a contract can't be re-done, but many players go about it the wrong way. Take Boldin for instance. What good is it doing anybody for him not to partake in the mini camp? It's not boot camp. The object is to better prepare each player for the upcoming season for the sake of the team , the players, and the fans.

Wouldn't it be better for Q to show up ........run a few routes........catch a few passes.....mesh with his old and new teammates........talk to the fans and media? In fact he could even take the opportunity to express his desire for a new contract.

Worst case scenario, everyone who is saying Boldin's knees are "bum" should realize if he shows up at minicamp, and hurts his knee again, he's in a far worse position now than if he gets a new deal with a big bonus, goes to minicamp, and THEN hurts his knee.

If the injury is inevitable(as some people seem to think), Boldin would be stupid to willingly let it happen on his current contract.
 

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If the injury is inevitable(as some people seem to think) said:
and in that case the Cards would be stupid to give him a new contract, thus the impass
 

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Reddog said:
If the injury is inevitable(as some people seem to think) said:
and in that case the Cards would be stupid to give him a new contract, thus the impass

Sorry when I'm being sarcastic I should really use a smiley.

I really do think that's a big issue here though. Quan did what everyone told him last year, and got hurt, and apparently that injury was mishandled. I'm convinced that's why he's looking to get paid up front now. The problem is as you say, that's precisely why the Cards are hesitant to do that.

I don't know enough about Quan's knees to know if that's an issue or not, I guess seeing the actual offer from the Cards would make that much clearer, if it's small bonus big on salary that tells you they're concerned about his knees.
 

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Sorry Stout, but I think it's a great article that hits the nail on the head when it comes to over-priced, self indulged, look at me, players.

Boldin might want to start listening to those footsteps behind him, it might be the "NEXT GREAT RECEIVER" that will take his place, and Oh, by the way, the Cards will do just fine in 2005, with or without Boldin.

BTW, having people agree to disagree, is what makes this board so great. :wave:
 

blindseyed

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I like the article.

Bottom line with all these high paid contracts etc...who pays? We do, that fans. Higher ticket prices, higher merchandise prices, etc...
 

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BACH said:
Bill Bidwill until a couple of years ago..

First-why do you think we sucked so bad? This was a major reason.

Second-actually, he did NOT honor all contracts. That's baloney. NO owner honors all of their contracts.
 

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swd1974 said:
oh I am so sure youd just LOVE to be giving millions upon millions to players like Bryant and Johnson and Pace for being first rounders that did nothing. That IS honoring their contracts.

Yeah, but what happens to Jeff Blake? Did they honor his contract? I'm not saying, personally, that they should have, but no, they didn't. I'm sorry. The owners are vicious and the players are greedy. The facts of today's NFL.
 

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NFL_FAN said:
1. Minicamps (except for three days all offseason) and offseason workouts aren't mandatory, so don't take the bait from the players when they miss these sessions. Make it clear that re-negotiating contracts is just as voluntary as the workouts, and for every day they decide to volunteer to stay home, you will elect to 'volunteer' not to negotiate for a month. Has anyone reminded our young friends that there is only one NFL and if they don't play in this league, they don't play at all? Unless, of course, they want to find out what it feels like in a minor league.

Yeah, good idea, Kirwin. You do this, and I'm sure the negotiations will be kept civil and won't fall into acrimonious bridge-burning. :rolleyes:

2. For every player who stays out of practice, there is another player who is hungry and ready to seize the opportunity. We just saw 255 rookies get drafted, another 160 undrafted rookies will be signed and there are 150 guys over in NFL Europe developing their skills and maybe 50 tough young men in the Arena League and Canada who would do just about anything for an opportunity in the only high-paying football league in the world. Someone out there is a star waiting to be discovered. That's over 600 potential players being injected into the system in addition to the young developing athletes already on rosters.

So if Brady holds out, simply ignore him and start Davey, right? Well, Davey MAY turn out to be a successful QB, but is it wise to simply hand him the keys and ignore the star? Brilliant :rolleyes:

4. As for the players that use the favorite cry of "The clubs don't honor the contract, so why should we?" there are reasons teams fire players and don't stand by the length of the contract -- the length of the contract was never a real length of term and the player knew it all along. The club was trying to give the player a bigger signing bonus up front and, in agreement with the agent, extended the deal to amortize the bonus over a longer period of time. I always told the player when he signed what the logic was behind the deal and most executives do the same. It is amazing how many players and agents conveniently forget that when the player is cut. Front-office people probably need to go on record when a deal is done by saying something like, "We just signed Player X to a six-year deal but it really is a three-year deal in which we had to spread the big signing bonus out to fit under our salary cap. The player understands the structure."

Yeah, well, if that's the case, then the owners can easily realize the same damn thing. They KNOW if a player outplays his contract, it's going to be re-done. Maybe the player should go on record when a deal is done and say, 'I'm happy to play for this amount, unless I outplay the contract'.

5. To the teammates that feel they must support their holdout buddies by standing by them and never expressing their frustration that the team isn't getting better in the offseason, do me a favor: Call me when you get fired and those same guys send you a check to keep food on the table in your house. Trust me, it will never happen.

Tell me, Kirwin...if an employee feels a fellow employee is getting screwed over, isn't it just POSSIBLE that they feel for that guy? Can't they say they support the guy without MONETARILY supporting the guy?

Drivel, Kirwin...utter drivel.
 

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Wildfire said:
Sorry Stout, but I think it's a great article that hits the nail on the head when it comes to over-priced, self indulged, look at me, players.

Boldin might want to start listening to those footsteps behind him, it might be the "NEXT GREAT RECEIVER" that will take his place, and Oh, by the way, the Cards will do just fine in 2005, with or without Boldin.

BTW, having people agree to disagree, is what makes this board so great. :wave:

Sure, everyone's entitled to disagree. I'm also entitled to call an article garbage, and argue with folks who liked it. Is that okay with you, bro?

I figured it was obvious the piece was garbage, but since it's not, I've highlighted the stupidity above.

Peace out! :)
 

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hmmmm. And to think this article is posted on the front page of the official league website a day before minicamps begin. If I were a cynical person, I might have some doubts about it. But I don't. Truly this is a heartfelt, unbiased, well thought out and completely objective opinion on the part of Kirwan..... and the NFL.

I'm expecting an equally stupid response from the players to come out any day now.
 

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Stout said:
First-why do you think we sucked so bad? This was a major reason.

Second-actually, he did NOT honor all contracts. That's baloney. NO owner honors all of their contracts.

Yes they do. You seem totaly miss his point.

The contract includes the ability for early termination, if a team exercises that option that is still honouring the contract. The point Kirwin was making is that the agents and the players fully understand this part of the contract.

Last but not least the Cardinals seem to be willing to significantly up Q's contract, so it does seem they are playing more than fair.
 

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nidan said:
Yes they do. You seem totaly miss his point.

The contract includes the ability for early termination, if a team exercises that option that is still honouring the contract. The point Kirwin was making is that the agents and the players fully understand this part of the contract.

Not to argue with you Nidan but not all player contracts are structured like that. In fact, I've only seen it in the high compensation cases. TO - yes. Anquan Boldin - no. Anthony Clement - no. Lsrry Fitzgerald - yes.

Last but not least the Cardinals seem to be willing to significantly up Q's contract, so it does seem they are playing more than fair.

But the devil is in the details - most likely the upfront money. We don't know how much has been asked or offered but we do know they haven't been able reach an agreement on it .

I'm not taking either side really. I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for a bunch of millionaires fighting over money. They should just stop with all the posturing and the finger pointing. Work it out guys and lets play some football.

.
 

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Looks like you're in the minority on this one Stout. I agree with Kirwin and the others. Everything is spelled out in the original contracts and the players are aware they can be terminated at any time when they sign the contract. That's why they try to get as much money as possible up front (guaranteed money). If they don't perform and get cut, they have no one to blame but themselves and the vast majority of contracts have paid millions of dollars to players who didn't earn them.

Some good guys may get caught up in the system and lose their jobs due to cap situations, etc. but guess what? That's the way life is. It can happen to any of us and it should be no different because you're an athlete.
 

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nidan said:
Yes they do. You seem totaly miss his point.

The contract includes the ability for early termination, if a team exercises that option that is still honouring the contract. The point Kirwin was making is that the agents and the players fully understand this part of the contract.

Last but not least the Cardinals seem to be willing to significantly up Q's contract, so it does seem they are playing more than fair.

So if the players understand that, why can't the owners understand holdouts are part of the contract process as well. I hate holdouts, but it is a two-way street.
 

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40yearfan said:
Looks like you're in the minority on this one Stout. I agree with Kirwin and the others. Everything is spelled out in the original contracts and the players are aware they can be terminated at any time when they sign the contract. That's why they try to get as much money as possible up front (guaranteed money). If they don't perform and get cut, they have no one to blame but themselves and the vast majority of contracts have paid millions of dollars to players who didn't earn them.

Some good guys may get caught up in the system and lose their jobs due to cap situations, etc. but guess what? That's the way life is. It can happen to any of us and it should be no different because you're an athlete.

I don't mind being in the minority. Being right makes up for it :D

Actually, most of his overall idea, that of hating holdouts, I agree with personally. Still, it's a two way street.

Most of what I think, or rather know, to be idiotic about Kirwin's article is his blase attitude about taking a hard stance. Burn your bridges and be acrimonious in negotiations, because everybody has a new star player just ready to step in and keep the team at a high level of competition.

I'd like to see what happens if the Vikes do that with Culpepper. Yeah, they'll be just as good with another young player stepping it up at QB :rolleyes:

Kirwin just wants teams to go faaaaaaaaaaar too hard-line with their players, and it would mostly wind up in disaster on the field.
 

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I'm with you on this one Stout. That article was pure crap. I especially loved the un-named souce, a 'former NFL star', stating that players should never be allowed to demand to have their contracts renegotiated. Yeah right. Bet it wasn't Deion Sanders or any other 'former NFL star' who said that. If it was truly said at all.

And the idea of having Canadian, World league and Arena league players take the place of established stars is just laughable. That would be the league's worst nightmare.

Total posturing for, and probably from, the league. Kirwan lost what little credibility he had left with that article. He's just a hack.
 

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For every player that gets cut, theres a player who is still going to get paid if he suffers an injury. For every player that gets cut there is a player who under achieved will return to his team and will still get paid.

How many players out there get cut and then move on to a better deal and big signing bonus.

Samari Rolle and gets cut and he goes to the Ravens and gets a huge contract. Ditto for Derrick Mason. Plaxico Burris is another example. Owners didn't honor their contracts yet they still enjoy a nice windfall.

It's bad enough that teams can't retain players for an entire career because of the salary cap. Thats a charm lost from the "old days". But it is what it is.

How would we feel as fans if it was announced that Bertrand Berry, Darnell Dockett, Karlos Dansby, Leonard Davis, and Larry Fitgerald all stated they were not reporting because they all wanted to get a new contract? In reality , whats stopping them from doing so? Some people would say....they already have a contract and intend to honor them.

Also, how many players have went to management at ANY time with the intent to give back some money because they had a s*it year? None.

So it goes both ways. I just get aggravated when a player who is under contract takes this stance . In Boldins situation, HE'S GOT 2 MORE YEARS.

Finally, I believe in my heart that a deal will get done and we will soon be able to put this all behind us. We got to much good MO-JO going. Lets just hope for all our sanity it's sooner than later.
 

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