Paul Horning and political correctness

Status
Not open for further replies.

Skkorpion

Grey haired old Bird
LEGACY MEMBER
Supporting Member
Joined
May 9, 2002
Posts
11,026
Reaction score
5
Location
Sun City, AZ
Paul Horning screwed it up. The Irish can get lots of black athletes to go to Notre Dame, just not many of the best ones.

The black athletes who grew up in pathetic public school systems like they have in Florida, Texas, California and Oklahoma don't want to go to Duke, Wake Forest, Northwestern, Stanford, Vanderbilt, Rice, and Notre Dame. The ones who did nothing but lift weights, and play sports and take joke courses aren't subject to being recruited by those schools. Those players aren't dummies; they just don't have the necessary foundation so they choose to go places where they can stay elligible anyway.

Of course, many white athletes have the same burden, which Horning ignored.

The real tragedy is there is a separation of educational opportunity in the US. If you go to a private school in grade school and high school, you have a much higher chance at success in life, than if you go to public schools.

My guess is a vast majority of blacks still have no choice but to go to public schools for financial reasons.

The Oklahomas, Miamis, Florida States, and Nebraskas don't limit their recruiting pools to just the "good student" population. Of course they get some good students who are good athletes. They also are willing to recruit the poor students in order to win.

Anquaan Boldin would have succeeded anywhere. Nebraska regularly has academic all-American football players.

What's missed in all this is that Paul Horning was correctly pointing out Notre Dame's hypocrisy. The school wants it both ways - to maintain high academic entrance requirements for athletes, and to compete for national championships.

Frankly, I don't think you can do both anymore, given the deterioration of public school systems. It's my opinion that Penn State's problems are similar. Paterno runs a program where he tries to not take in many poorly qualified students and it's biting him in the butt.

I went to both Notre Dame and ASU. There were sharp students in my classes in both places, a lot sharper than I was. The difference was that approximately the bottom 40% of the students in my ASU classes wouldn't have gotten into Notre Dame. Extrapolate that to an 80 member football team and remember that many of the very best athletes, white or black, skipped taking tough courses in high school to remain eligible.

So what Paul Horning should have said is that if Notre Dame wishes to compete for National titles, the school should lower entrance requirements so more public school kids from poor backgrounds can get into Notre Dame. Proportionally, more black high school football players go through poor public educational systems than do white high school football players. Can I prove it? No, it's just my casual observation.

That ignores the second problem - how to keep these disadvantaged kids to stay in school. In my opinion, you can't. The competition in the classroom will overwhelm them and they will be weeded out unless the school then cheats on grades. Again that's my opinion formed by observation.

So Horning's remedy is self-defeating. Notre Dame should resign itself to 6 and 7 win seasons, with an occasional 9 win abberation and quit whining.

Let the schools who choose to be realistic about admissions compete for the national title.
 

AzCards21

Registered User
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Banned from P+R
Joined
Jul 24, 2002
Posts
18,054
Reaction score
61
Location
What?
You know Skorrp. I have some problems with how the words came out of Horning more than what he (IMO) was trying to say.

I totally agree with how the educational opportunities aren't there for most of the nations top athletes. Hell, they're not available to most of the nations top Einstines either.

Here's the problem, Why did college A decide to persue Student's A and B? Say student A carries a 4.0 throughout his school career but can't catch a football to save his life. Yet student B carried a 3.0 in school but runs a 4.4 40 and can catch any ball within 10 feet of him.

The school wants student A because that's what college is supposed to be is higher learning and in Notre Dames case higher learning for only the elite. He's in. Not because he offered any monitary gain to the school (other than tuition) but that's the students you want. Unfortunately he doesn't bring in the big bucks.

Yet they also want player B because he represents winning football and that equals a 9 million dollar a year TV contract. But his grades aren't up to par and the school has a reputation to uphold. Do you pass on this guy? Why was he brought in for a look at all? BECAUSE! He is one hell of a reciever! And you need this guy to secure your 9 million dollars. Otherwise you become the laughing stock of the college sports network and no TV rights will come your way.

Black or white could represent player A or B. I personally could give a crap. It's the college who is playing this stupid game. Obviously the pressure has been applied to Horning to win or else. He is just trying to field a winning team at all costs. You can't do that if restricted to Doctorate majors of any color.

I'm not saying athletes are stupid or that geniouses are not athletic. I am saying if you want a 4.0 GPA football team you had better get uniforms with pocket protectors. And not expect to win many games.
 
Last edited:

vikesfan

ASFN Lifer
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
Jan 18, 2004
Posts
3,007
Reaction score
0
1. Just to preface I am an ND fan. The problem with his statement is he said "blacks" it is racist to suggest that dumb athletes are only blacks. There are plenty of dumb white athletes.
It's not just good athletes who are black who don't get into ND there are whites as well.
That is racism.

2. I think ND is in trouble. The management has been atrocious. Sound familiar? They fired Holtz mistake number one - then hired Davie mistake number two. The book is out on Ty he might be good he might be a bust. What worries me is the atrocious recruiting year they had.

3. ND if it is to survive needs to bring in some proven recruiters and they need to schedule easier schedules (toughest in the nation again last year.) The other thing ND needs to do is either lower academic standards for players OR make it so that other schools increase their standards. The biggest joke in College Football is the football factories with their phoney college courses and 30% graduation rates. College football is becoming a minor league for the NFL. It needs to go back to being played by STUDENTS taking real courses, not semi-pros who aren't going to graduate!
 

Southpaw

Provocateur aka Wallyburger
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2003
Posts
39,818
Reaction score
3,410
Location
The urban swamp
Hornung is just another "dumb jock" who has "dumb ideas" and can command an audience. The Golden Boy is tarnished. Anytime an institution sacrifices quality of play for academics, that institution should be applauded, but Notre Dame is not guilty of letting academics be the reason for their poor performance. Try a series of bad choice head coaches and an athletic department run by a Franciscan Monk. Ironic that Paul didn't mention that 2 - 8 team he was on when he won the Heisman Trophy. Put the bottle down Paul.
 
Joined
Nov 15, 2002
Posts
13,292
Reaction score
1,160
Location
SE Valley
vikesfan said:
The biggest joke in College Football is the football factories with their phoney college courses and 30% graduation rates. College football is becoming a minor league for the NFL. It needs to go back to being played by STUDENTS taking real courses, not semi-pros who aren't going to graduate!


Excellent statement!!!

I understand that college sports have become "big business". I just think that the fact that it has reeks!

This is the top reason I admire Joe Paterno. As someone already mentioned with Paterno it has truly always been school first, football second. JoePa may have slipped some in coaching abilities over the past several years, indeed I believe he should retire. But thank God, that he has never compromised his principles on education.

For the athletes that can't hack the academics.... they can always go to Miami!
 

jolt

Veteran
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Posts
307
Reaction score
0
Paul Horning is a moron, but in a way it's almost impressive how he managed to degrade everyone at once. According to his statement, black players are dumb and white/latino/asian players all suck at sports.
 

Southpaw

Provocateur aka Wallyburger
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2003
Posts
39,818
Reaction score
3,410
Location
The urban swamp
CardLogic said:
Excellent statement!!!

I understand that college sports have become "big business". I just think that the fact that it has reeks!

This is the top reason I admire Joe Paterno. As someone already mentioned with Paterno it has truly always been school first, football second. JoePa may have slipped some in coaching abilities over the past several years, indeed I believe he should retire. But thank God, that he has never compromised his principles on education.

For the athletes that can't hack the academics.... they can always go to Miami!

Do you actually believe the junk you write or are you just trying to get attention? :shrug:
 

Krangodnzr

Captain of Team Murray
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
36,333
Reaction score
34,058
Location
Orange County, CA
Great observations Skkorp. Just when I think I can't be more impressed, you go and prove that you are even more intelligent and articulate than I could've ever imagined. :thumbup::thumbup:
 

40yearfan

DEFENSE!!!!
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Posts
35,013
Reaction score
456
Location
Phoenix, AZ.
vikesfan said:
1. Just to preface I am an ND fan. The problem with his statement is he said "blacks" it is racist to suggest that dumb athletes are only blacks. There are plenty of dumb white athletes.
It's not just good athletes who are black who don't get into ND there are whites as well.
That is racism.

2. I think ND is in trouble. The management has been atrocious. Sound familiar? They fired Holtz mistake number one - then hired Davie mistake number two. The book is out on Ty he might be good he might be a bust. What worries me is the atrocious recruiting year they had.

3. ND if it is to survive needs to bring in some proven recruiters and they need to schedule easier schedules (toughest in the nation again last year.) The other thing ND needs to do is either lower academic standards for players OR make it so that other schools increase their standards. The biggest joke in College Football is the football factories with their phoney college courses and 30% graduation rates. College football is becoming a minor league for the NFL. It needs to go back to being played by STUDENTS taking real courses, not semi-pros who aren't going to graduate!

vikesfan, I disagree with you if you are intimating that Horning is a racist. Maybe he could have phrased his statement better, but he spoke the truth about educational opportunities not being equal between whites and minorities and believe me, that's what he was trying to say. It was actually a left handed compliment to black players. If we are going to play the race card every time someone speaks without thinking, then we should level charges against Spike Lee as hard as we do if the person is white.
 

CaliCards

Registered
Joined
Oct 14, 2003
Posts
446
Reaction score
0
Skoorpion, you made some good points

Skkorpion said:
"Anquaan Boldin would have succeeded anywhere. Nebraska regularly has academic all-American football players."

"What's missed in all this is that Paul Horning was correctly pointing out Notre Dame's hypocrisy. The school wants it both ways - to maintain high academic entrance requirements for athletes, and to compete for national championships."

"So what Paul Horning should have said is that if Notre Dame wishes to compete for National titles, the school should lower entrance requirements so more public school kids from poor backgrounds can get into Notre Dame. Proportionally, more black high school football players go through poor public educational systems than do white high school football players. Can I prove it? No, it's just my casual observation."
:thumbup:

The three passages from your post provides a good example of what can happen if people allow their minds to become corrupt with stereotypes. Paul Horning, like many Americans, are guilty of using sterotypes as accumulated facts and historic background on many important issues. So, when they speak out on issues such as education, race, or US foreign policy the result is usually a bit more than commiting a faux pas.

Paul Horning failed to point out that 55% of Notre Dame footbal players are African-Americans (ESPN), has a latargic offensive system, and no longer has an advantage in recruiting elite players, as it once did, because its games were featured on TV more than all the other schools combined. Since the dawning of cable TV, ND has had to compete with Miami, Stanford and other teams for elite players--schools that are also situated in a warmer climate.
 

vikesfan

ASFN Lifer
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
Jan 18, 2004
Posts
3,007
Reaction score
0
40yearfan said:
vikesfan, I disagree with you if you are intimating that Horning is a racist. Maybe he could have phrased his statement better, but he spoke the truth about educational opportunities not being equal between whites and minorities and believe me, that's what he was trying to say. It was actually a left handed compliment to black players. If we are going to play the race card every time someone speaks without thinking, then we should level charges against Spike Lee as hard as we do if the person is white.

Well if he was saying black kids in America don't get as good an education as white kids in America. I agree. If he is saying blacks are dumber then whites - then his COMMENT is racist - whether he is racist or not.
 

JeffGollin

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
20,472
Reaction score
3,056
Location
Holmdel, NJ
College football is becoming a minor league for the NFL. It needs to go back to being played by STUDENTS taking real courses, not semi-pros who aren't going to graduate!
Correction. It already is a minor league.

My problem with Hornung's statement is that he appears to be placing "having a good football team" at ND at a higher priority than "providing a good education." (i.e. I think he said: "Let's lower the standards so that we can have a better football team).

I agree that college football should go back to having rosters stocked with students who like to play football instead of aspiring pro athletes. Colleges shouldn't be an NFL minor league, because it corrupts their "industry" which should be - Education.

The current court decision regarding letting high schoolers and underclassmen play pro ball may nudge the process in the right direction. But only if the League provides its own assortment of life-skills college-level courses for pro football players - which include: financial management, dealing with agents, public speaking, personal health, careers after football and anything else an aspiring pro football player needs to know in order to cope in his unique world and what will come after.

Final point - As a spectator sport "all things are relative" when it comes to watching football. (I find watching HS football quite entertaining in its own right). So long as the competitive playing field of college football isn't tilted (as it is now) I think fans will still watch college football as ardently as they do now. (In fact maybe even more, because when you don't have to be concerned about recruitment and preparation of your players for the pros, you can try all kinds of unorthodox things - like the single-wing; like unorthodox defensive and offensive systems. The variety alone would, therefore, make the college football product more fun to watch).
 

dopleganger

Veteran
Joined
Jan 1, 2003
Posts
310
Reaction score
0
Location
Central Illinois
vikesfan said:
Well if he was saying black kids in America don't get as good an education as white kids in America. I agree. If he is saying blacks are dumber then whites - then his COMMENT is racist - whether he is racist or not.

I would love to say Paul is not racist but I don't know the man and have not even seen the actual quote. But this race baiting bit is relly getting old and gets in the way of finding real answers.

Having gone to high school that was 48% black I still can not even begin to attest to the inteligence of them as a race. I know some were very smart, some were not. But there is(was) a large segment that just do not apply themselves, the question is why?

The exact same was true for whites but this segment was much smaller, at lest thats the way it seemed to me.

I believe its the Hiphop/******** culture that has gotten equated to the black culture. Its not, or it shouldn't be. The hiphop culture is crap.

But maybe I am a racist for saying that hungh??
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top