Pedro Martinez = most overrrated player ever

[Cheesebeef]

At least I'm not an ignorant old timer, who refuses to change no matter how much the evidence proves. Didn't a person just list of a paragraph of Pedro's great games in the playoffs? I believe he did.

yeah - he listed two - A truly remarkable game against the Indians - even though he wasn't on two days rest (nice embellishment) and then he went 7 innings, gave up 3 runs and 7 hits against the A's (that's a good performance but I'd hardly call it great).

And even so - what inevitably happened in the next series - you know - the League Championship series? One great 6 inning performance does not prove anything but rather it shows it's the exception to the rule.

And if you think I hate the Sox or something like that (even though I do think it wouldbe classic to see them come all the way back and lose) and thats why I'm writing this - I am cheering like crazy for tonight for them to win . . . big Schilling fan (go figure).

Also - have deep hatred for the Yanks.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Sorry Cheese your argument holds no water unles you ignore 1997 - 2003, when he was the most dominant pitcher in baseball. In those seven seasons his highest ERA was 2.39 in the American League in a hitters park. He has won 3 Cy Youngs, finished Top 5 in MVP voting twice, 3 strikeout titles, and 5 ERA titles.

And as far as big games goes, Pedro's postseason ERA is 3.10 (AL). By comparison, Randy Johnson's is 3.08 (NL), Roger Clemens' is 3.47 (AL), Greg Maddux's is 3.22 (NL). These were all prior to the present postseason. Just because the guy can't beat the Yankees shouldn't diminish his legacy.

Also if you want to talk about dropping off in 2004, Pedro this season amongst AL pitchers was 8th in ERA (not forgetting the garbage defense behind him), 2nd in strikeouts, 3rd in batting average allowed, and 4th in WHIP.

If you want to harp on his inability to get people out after 100 pitches, I will tell you Kerry Wood, Randy Johnson, Brad Radke, and Carlos Zambrano all had higher batting averages allowed after the century mark in pitches than Pedro.

Sorry the argument is false both statistically and visually.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Sorry Cheese your argument holds no water unles you ignore 1997 - 2003, when he was the most dominant pitcher in baseball. In those seven seasons his highest ERA was 2.39 in the American League in a hitters park. He has won 3 Cy Youngs, finished Top 5 in MVP voting twice, 3 strikeout titles, and 5 ERA titles.

And as far as big games goes, Pedro's postseason ERA is 3.10 (AL). By comparison, Randy Johnson's is 3.08 (NL), Roger Clemens' is 3.47 (AL), Greg Maddux's is 3.22 (NL). These were all prior to the present postseason. Just because the guy can't beat the Yankees shouldn't diminish his legacy.

Also if you want to talk about dropping off in 2004, Pedro this season amongst AL pitchers was 8th in ERA (not forgetting the garbage defense behind him), 2nd in strikeouts, 3rd in batting average allowed, and 4th in WHIP.

If you want to harp on his inability to get people out after 100 pitches, I will tell you Kerry Wood, Randy Johnson, Brad Radke, and Carlos Zambrano all had higher batting averages allowed after the century mark in pitches than Pedro.

Sorry the argument is false both statistically and visually.

bottom line for me Mao - it's a big game - is Pedro the guy you want starting?

I just don't think he should be mentioned in the same breath as Johnson, Schilling and Clemens.

I will retract my most overrated player ever statement - that was abit much but it was a reaction to him once again failing against the Yanks.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

bottom line for me Mao - it's a big game - is Pedro the guy you want starting?

Through 2002, yes, because he could still bring it upper 90s like you want from a Game 7 pitcher. I wouldn't want Glavine or Maddux to start a Game 7 for me either but that shouldn't diminish their status as two of the greatest pitchers of tis generation

I just don't think he should be mentioned in the same breath as Johnson, Schilling and Clemens.

As Clemens or Johnson no. He should be mentioned in a breath above Curt Schilling, who is dominated in nearly every statistical category by Pedro, who has far less starts and innings pitched. When all is said and done, you're going to find Pedro with Clemens among the all-time records while Curt will be far behind both.

I will retract my most overrated player ever statement - that was abit much but it was a reaction to him once again failing against the Yanks.

Again, losing to the Yanks is meaningless. The franchise has won almost half of the pennants over the last eighty years. More great pitchers than I can count have failed against the MFY's.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Mao - call me crazy - but I think people are gonna remember games like Schilling's in the playoffs - everywhere he's gone - as THE shut-down pitcher over the course of his career - with Philly, the amazing year with the D-Backs and now tonights perfomance long after they look at Pedro's stats.

Tonight's performance is exactly what I'm talking about - I don't care what the stats say.

On a bad wheel - his team trying to come back from 0-3 - he goes out and throws 7 innings - 1 run - 4 hits.

I do think it's a huge mistake to take him out right now.

 

[Beaver]

Pedro is Hall bound, no doubt. Only Randy, Maddux, and Clemens have more CY Youngs. Best pitcher during last 10 years? Lowest ERA, top 5 W, top 3 Ks, top 3 hits allowed. Tough choice.

 

[Homer Simpson]

I find it funny that those who chose to bash Pedro have brought both his Game 7 failure last season AND that he doesn't compare to Roger Clemens, among others. Anyone remember who the Yankee starter was in that Game 7 that put the Yankees in that early hole and got pulled early?

Oh, and Pedro was the winning pitcher in Game 5 versus Oakland last season.

 

[cardsunsfan]

I have to say I would take Schilling over Pedro... I don't think we win our World Series with Pedro instead of him,.. If Schilling had been on the Sox's team last year I bet they make the World Series. I would take Schilling on my team anyday over him...

 

[Cardinal Bob]

I find it funny that those who chose to bash Pedro have brought both his Game 7 failure last season AND that he doesn't compare to Roger Clemens, among others. Anyone remember who the Yankee starter was in that Game 7 that put the Yankees in that early hole and got pulled early?

Oh, and Pedro was the winning pitcher in Game 5 versus Oakland last season.

Another thing to note, Clemens was an awful postseason pitcher until he joined the All-Star team in the Bronx. Supporting cast has a lot to do with getting to the playoffs, let alone winning once you get there. Over most of the past I don't know how many years, the Yankee line-up and pitching staff has been much better than Boston's.

cheese - I wasn't trying to embellish the 2 days rest thing. I was typing all that from memory (which has been damaged by beer & herb over the years...especially college and H.S.) and fully expected there to be mistakes.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Another thing to note, Clemens was an awful postseason pitcher until he joined the All-Star team in the Bronx. Supporting cast has a lot to do with getting to the playoffs, let alone winning once you get there. Over most of the past I don't know how many years, the Yankee line-up and pitching staff has been much better than Boston's.

cheese - I wasn't trying to embellish the 2 days rest thing. I was typing all that from memory (which has been damaged by beer & herb over the years...especially college and H.S.) and fully expected there to be mistakes.

No prob - good luck tonight - this series has been absolutely riveting. Schilling was like The Natural out there yesterday with the bloody sock - unbelievable.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Anyone who would take Schilling's career over Pedro's is a victim of pure homerism or lack of knowledge.

And Cheese you're absolutely incorrect if you don't think Boston fans will remember Pedro coming back to the hill with a severely strained back to throw six hitless innings in that deciding game in 1999. That performance was just as, if not more impressive than Schilling's last night given the circumstances. If Boston loses tonight, both Schilling and Martinez's performance will be equals in Red Sox lore. Of course if the Sox win it all they will be remembered differently but that still remains to be seen.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Anyone who would take Schilling's career over Pedro's is a victim of pure homerism or lack of knowledge.

And Cheese you're absolutely incorrect if you don't think Boston fans will remember Pedro coming back to the hill with a severely strained back to throw six hitless innings in that deciding game in 1999. That performance was just as, if not more impressive than Schilling's last night given the circumstances. If Boston loses tonight, both Schilling and Martinez's performance will be equals in Red Sox lore. Of course if the Sox win it all they will be remembered differently but that still remains to be seen.

I'm not talking about Boston fans remembering - I'm talking about the entire baseball world remembering and the sporting world in general. Schilling's game is already been put in the Willis Reed, Kirk Gibson class - yet there is no mention of Pedro anywhere today.

People remember what the great ones do when the chips are down - pitching on back to back three days rest in the World Series for the Backs - pitching brilliant games in the World Series for the Phillies and coming up with one of the gutsiets performances in any sport of all time last night will be remembered long after Pedro's regualr season stats, a one game miracle against the Indians (come on - it was the Indians - only the Sox and Cubs were more cursed than them) and Pedro being NY's bitch.

Bottom line - I bet if you ask any Red Sox fan who they would want on the mound in any pressure situation - having watched Schilling beat the Yanks in the Series and after tonight - they would want his 37 year old ass out there over Pedro's fragile physicalities and mental weakness every time.

You can compare regualr season stats between the two of them all you want - but you can't argue with Schilling's complete and utter post-season domination against nearly everyone he faces, nor his ability to actually win the biggest game and be the leader of his team against Pedro's post-season record and it is in the post season where the Legends in the game are made.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Pedro comes in and what happens - like a script - he gets SHELLED.

Weakest Big game player to match his talent I have ever seen.

 

[Brandon_Webb]

...Damn Francona. What is he thinking bringing in Pedro? On what 3 days rest? He doesn't even need to pitch him.

 

[Cheesebeef]

...Damn Francona. What is he thinking bringing in Pedro? On what 3 days rest? He doesn't even need to pitch him.

I won't put all the blame on Pedro here - Francona is an ABOLSUTE ******** to bring him in. Two days rest . . . the crowd is absolutely silent and the Yankees own his ass - way to get the Yanks and the crowd back in the game Francona.

Big outs there at the end though - it could have been worse.

 

[Cardinal Bob]

I won't put all the blame on Pedro here - Francona is an ABOLSUTE ******** to bring him in. Two days rest . . . the crowd is absolutely silent and the Yankees own his ass - way to get the Yanks and the crowd back in the game Francona.

Big outs there at the end though - it could have been worse.

I was sitting there in the 7th last night, screaming at my TV, all the while thinking to myself "I gotta log on today and tell cheesebeef I take it all back. He was right!"

I guess we'll see what kind of big game pitcher Pedro is in the W.S. when it's not Yankees he's facing. It's obvious the Yankees have his number and have really gotten in his head.