Pelicans @ Suns Tuesday Playoff game thread 4-26-2022 - Game 5

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Wow, you've been busy on these Suns' threads. Watch out @Ronin

Lol. Too much time!

 

[Covert Rain]

Lol. Too much time!

You and me both. I had 4 cancelled conference calls today and 3 rescheduled meetings. Now I am sitting here with my wife waiting for my daughters performance to start.

 

[Sunburn]

That was a foundational factor in my analysis.

As it should be. The times Ayton is out of position when a shot does not go up are irrelevant.

 

[82CardsGrad]

My criticism has been twofold:

1. Ayton being outrebounded by 5 per game. Not saying he should outrebound Jonas, just not such a wide margin. Literally my only criticism of ayton; and

2. Your contention that his defending the perimeter is preventing him from being capable of being a better rebounder. Not a criticism of Ayton at all.

1. So again I ask... what would be an acceptable rebound # for Ayton, in your opinion? You've said you don't expect Ayton to outrebound Jonas. So what is the number you would accept?

2. My contention is that the way in which he plays and is used by the Suns, such as defending the perimeter, is a factor in his lower than "hoped-for" rebound totals. I have zero doubt that he would be a better rebounder if he altered his style of play, and/or the Suns chose to use him differently. And, I have zero doubt that as the years progress, his rebound totals will increase... To be real though, I don't ever see him being one of the great, dominant rebounding centers. And that's totally ok. If he takes his rebound average from the current 10.5, up to 12.5 or so, while averaging 18-20 points per game, while increasing his assists to 3-4 per game, and working hard on the defensive end by forcing bad shots/blocking shots/causing players to veer out of the paint or stay away from the hoop - I'd be totally fine with all of that.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I am talking about scenarios in which the Suns strategy put our bigs at a disadvantage because there would not have been an opportunity to recover and establish in the paint. That was by design. Some resulted in missed opportunities.

I just finished. IMO there were at least 5 other occurrences where I felt the defensive set put our bigs at a disadvantage on the second half. Ayton finished with 9 rebounds. Not sure off the top of my head what McGee or Biyombo did. However, IMO there were plenty of opportunities had they been in position to secure at least one more rebound in Ayton's case and more overall for our bigs. It could have given any of them on or two more then everybody likely isn't nitpicking his rebounding. There is another piece of this though...see below.

Three things I didn't see before? Biyombo is better at recovering than either Ayton or McGee. There were multiple like scenarios where Biyombo looked way out of position because he was trapping or covering a perimeter player and recovered. Second, when we played the Twin towers it seems Monty had a no trap strategy. I didn't see many traps at all when playing two bigs. Third? I counted at least a dozen times where our bigs instead of planting on the Left block, Right Block or at the free throw line were instead playing at the very edge of the free throw line circle which is unusual unless you plan on crowding the perimeter.

So, IMO, I think it's fair to say that our bigs mostly covered the paint in a traditional way but IMO there were plenty of plays and defensive position sets that made it more difficult.

TO BE CLEAR. I am in no way saying that Ayton didn't make mistakes and couldn't have grabbed a rebound or two more. 100% agree with that. I am just saying that the Suns game plan at times could have also made it more difficult on our bigs to secure more. The Suns were trying to close on the Pelicans shooters and trap. I think both can be true.

Not to belabor this any further....but... With respect to Biz being better at recovering, I wonder if that was when Jonas was in our out of the game, as I think Jonas has the ability to impact the degree a big is able to recover, more-so than Nance/Hayes...

Also, I have zero doubt that Ayton could've grabbed another rebound or two. But, can't that be said about any big? Or any other player expected to contribute with rebounds, like Crowder, Bridges, Johnson...or, Nance, Hayes or Ingram?

I mean, no player ever plays a perfect game. Heck, I'm sure if we wanted to replay the game last night, we would find that Bridges could've/should've had another rebound or two... It happens... To all players...In all games...

@Ouchie-Z-Clown - WARNING! I am not @ing you to troll you! Just wanted to say that I agree with your comment that players like Ayton, and Book before DA, who possess such incredible talent and upside potential, will get the majority of the scrutiny. And, I agree that in the regular season, DA is worthy of ALL of it and then some. But in the post season and in particular, in this series, I just can't get onboard with criticizing the only player who has decided to show up in every game, where he's increased virtually every statistical area over his regular season numbers.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Not to belabor this any further....but... With respect to Biz being better at recovering, I wonder if that was when Jonas was in our out of the game, as I think Jonas has the ability to impact the degree a big is able to recover, more-so than Nance/Hayes...

Also, I have zero doubt that Ayton could've grabbed another rebound or two. But, can't that be said about any big? Or any other player expected to contribute with rebounds, like Crowder, Bridges, Johnson...or, Nance, Hayes or Ingram?

I mean, no player ever plays a perfect game. Heck, I'm sure if we wanted to replay the game last night, we would find that Bridges could've/should've had another rebound or two... It happens... To all players...In all games...

@Ouchie-Z-Clown - WARNING! I am not @ing you to troll you! Just wanted to say that I agree with your comment that players like Ayton, and Book before DA, who possess such incredible talent and upside potential, will get the majority of the scrutiny. And, I agree that in the regular season, DA is worthy of ALL of it and then some. But in the post season and in particular, in this series, I just can't get onboard with criticizing the only player who has decided to show up in every game, where he's increased virtually every statistical area over his regular season numbers.

Even here you are ignoring facts about the postseason. You keep saying he showed up in every game when he had a weak 10 points and 9 rebounds in Game 2 where we gave up HCA. No one showed up in that game save Booker in the first half before he got injured.

 

[Ronin]

Wow, you've been busy on these Suns' threads. Watch out @Ronin

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[82CardsGrad]

Even here you are ignoring facts about the postseason. You keep saying he showed up in every game when he had a weak 10 points and 9 rebounds in Game 2 where we gave up HCA. No one showed up in that game save Booker in the first half before he got injured.

You're right... Game 2 was a miss for DA.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

1. So again I ask... what would be an acceptable rebound # for Ayton, in your opinion? You've said you don't expect Ayton to outrebound Jonas. So what is the number you would accept?

2. My contention is that the way in which he plays and is used by the Suns, such as defending the perimeter, is a factor in his lower than "hoped-for" rebound totals. I have zero doubt that he would be a better rebounder if he altered his style of play, and/or the Suns chose to use him differently. And, I have zero doubt that as the years progress, his rebound totals will increase... To be real though, I don't ever see him being one of the great, dominant rebounding centers. And that's totally ok. If he takes his rebound average from the current 10.5, up to 12.5 or so, while averaging 18-20 points per game, while increasing his assists to 3-4 per game, and working hard on the defensive end by forcing bad shots/blocking shots/causing players to veer out of the paint or stay away from the hoop - I'd be totally fine with all of that.

1. It’s not the number, it’s the disparity. Even if he didn’t get the rebound I’d like to see him stop Jonas from rebounding. It can be any combination of the two. Five is just ridiculous. If Jonas was averaging 10 and Ayton was averaging 5 would you still say it’s okay?

2. Yes we know what your hypothesis is. I’ve already done my study and determined you’re wrong. Covert did his own and found something between my analysis and your hypothesis. And if Ayton reaches those numbers and maintains his defense he’ll be a superstar the level of a Tim Duncan. I hope you’re right!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You must be registered for see images attach

Lol. Awesome.

 

[Western Font]

I wouldn't. Dude is damaged goods. Trade him before that is a certainty. It's more likely than not.

Imagine what a desperate for relevance Knicks team would give up for him? And those picks would likely be fairly good since you just know Williamson will get hurt.

I think this is fair. The Knicks are a situation where it could actually been for both teams because he’d be a star in NYC despite availability.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

1. So again I ask... what would be an acceptable rebound # for Ayton, in your opinion? You've said you don't expect Ayton to outrebound Jonas. So what is the number you would accept?

2. My contention is that the way in which he plays and is used by the Suns, such as defending the perimeter, is a factor in his lower than "hoped-for" rebound totals. I have zero doubt that he would be a better rebounder if he altered his style of play, and/or the Suns chose to use him differently. And, I have zero doubt that as the years progress, his rebound totals will increase... To be real though, I don't ever see him being one of the great, dominant rebounding centers. And that's totally ok. If he takes his rebound average from the current 10.5, up to 12.5 or so, while averaging 18-20 points per game, while increasing his assists to 3-4 per game, and working hard on the defensive end by forcing bad shots/blocking shots/causing players to veer out of the paint or stay away from the hoop - I'd be totally fine with all of that.

These are Ayton's rebounding numbers through 4 years.

10.3
11.5
10.5
10.2

The one outlier he played in only 38 games. In the playoffs he is nearly the same. That's 4 years of data and multiple playoff opponents for nearly the same outcome.

It's more about the player than the system.

 

[82CardsGrad]

These are Ayton's rebounding numbers through 4 years.

10.3
11.5
10.5
10.2

The one outlier he played in only 38 games. In the playoffs he is nearly the same. That's 4 years of data and multiple playoff opponents for nearly the same outcome.

It's more about the player than the system.

As I’ve said, he will never be a great, dominate, prolific rebounding Center.
But he has shown in the post season the ability to increase, slightly, his rebounding totals.
I do believe the system contributes as well. But yea, if the expectation is for DA to dominate on the boards, the expectations are off…

 

[Chris_Sanders]

As I’ve said, he will never be a great, dominate, prolific rebounding Center.
But he has shown in the post season the ability to increase, slightly, his rebounding totals.
I do believe the system contributes as well. But yea, if the expectation is for DA to dominate on the boards, the expectations are off…

The comment that he is a top 6 guy in everything in the playoffs is good enough for me. He won't dominate one catagory but the sum of him is greater than one thing.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

The person who needs to up his game to regular season levels is Crowder. He has been brutal in this series. He is averaging 3 less rebounds per game, 2 less points per game, and his eFG went from 51% to 35%

That's the guy that I am frustrated with.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The person who needs to up his game to regular season levels is Crowder. He has been brutal in this series. He is averaging 3 less rebounds per game, 2 less points per game, and his eFG went from 51% to 35%

That's the guy that I am frustrated with.

Crowder has been truly awful. His shots aren’t even close.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The person who needs to up his game to regular season levels is Crowder. He has been brutal in this series. He is averaging 3 less rebounds per game, 2 less points per game, and his eFG went from 51% to 35%

That's the guy that I am frustrated with.

He's been mostly horrible for quite awhile (especially on offense). I'm not sure if it's a lingering injury or if this is just the reason Miami and others let him walk. I do know that he hurt his hand (?) and was supposed to be out for awhile but came back without giving it time to heal because we were short handed.

 

[82CardsGrad]

The person who needs to up his game to regular season levels is Crowder. He has been brutal in this series. He is averaging 3 less rebounds per game, 2 less points per game, and his eFG went from 51% to 35%

That's the guy that I am frustrated with.

I think pre-injury Can Johnson is in this category as well...and of course, Cam Payne.

 

[Covert Rain]

Crowder has been truly awful. His shots aren’t even close.

Crowder has been off for a bit, Cam J. still doesn't look pre-injury Cam J. (but looks like he is making progress) and Payne has been an awful 3 point shooter all year and horrible overall since March. Those are 3 guys main guys off our bench that simply have been struggling for some time now. It's hurt us in this series for sure and we are not even playing the elite of the elite yet in the playoffs.

 

[95pro]

Crowder has been crap this year, a little less the past season.

CJ starting was nice, but who would be the back up to CJ? Crowder? Crowder as a back up doesn't provide a punch to our second unit. This guy is close to being un-serviceable.

Are his moments "clutch"? Or are they instances where he's bound to actually do something positive?

 

[zett]

Crowders contribution is on the defensive end, I personally don't like to see him shoot anymore then 3 to 4 times a game. he denies passing lanes gets strips and and stays between his man and the basket. (mostly) and plays great help defense. and we need his toughness to stand up to thugs that want to try and push us around.

 

[Covert Rain]

Crowder has been crap this year, a little less the past season.

CJ starting was nice, but who would be the back up to CJ? Crowder? Crowder as a back up doesn't provide a punch to our second unit. This guy is close to being un-serviceable.

Are his moments "clutch"? Or are they instances where he's bound to actually do something positive?

Crowders physicality was huge in the last win.

 

[Absolute Zero]

Really? Because the resident geniuses here said play Holiday. Check. Play Twin Towers. Check. Limit Pauls minutes second half Check.

I would say resident ASFN geniuses did OK.

You were responding to my post below which was a reminder that Monty has more basketball knowhow than those who post here, even some calling his moves dumb. So when your respond with "Really?" It kinda sounds like you do know more than Monty. Am I misreading that?

Absolute Zero said:
Apparently, Monty knew a bit more than our resident ASFN geniuses tonight

 

[Mainstreet]

Chris Paul gets a flagrant 1 foul for contact with Jose Alvarado.

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[Covert Rain]

You were responding to my post below which was a reminder that Monty has more basketball knowhow than those who post here, even some calling his moves dumb. So when your respond with "Really?" It kinda sounds like you do know more than Monty. Am I misreading that?

I was responding in general to the comment about ASFN posters who, at least the knowledgeable ones, are not really that bad and get things right too. I don't contend that anybody here thinks they are more knowledgeable than Monty.