Chaplin
Better off silent
When was the last time any professional athlete did that? There may have been one, but over the last 15 years or so, that's a pretty low number.
Penny Goes Off
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When was the last time any professional athlete did that? There may have been one, but over the last 15 years or so, that's a pretty low number.
jbeecham
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Didn't Shawn Kemp just do that?
Chaplin
Better off silent
Who else?
Chaplin
Better off silent
Speaking of Shawn Kemp, I got this off of his forum--a nice way to put a smile on your face...
Chaplin
Better off silent
Tom Gugliotta is no Mark McGwire.
SirStefan32
Krycek, Alex Krycek
I think people need to back the heck of from Penny Hardaway. Leave him alone!
Having said that, I wish he'd just take matters into his own hand ON THE COURT, as opposed to the media.
Having said that, I wish he'd just take matters into his own hand ON THE COURT, as opposed to the media.
George O'Brien
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I guess Penny struck a nerve on this board, if not with his team.
:wink:
My guess is that Penny's complaint (assuming he made it) was more accurately directed at JJ than Stephon, although I can see how it would be ascribed to Marbury.
For the past two seasons I have been complaining about the Suns shooting too many 3's. The problem with 3's is that while they pad the player's stats, they tend to hurt the team.
In theory, shooting 33% of 3's is equivalent to 50% of 2 point shots. The problem is that in practice shooting 3's generates long rebounds that trigger fast breaks. If anything, the Suns tend to shoot more 3's when the opponent is making a run, which only makes things worse.
In another thread, I mentioned that JJ shoots twice as many 3's per minute as Penny, but hits only 26% of them. Penny's 3 point shots are hit at almost the same percentage as his overall average. (The same can be said about Casey).
Unfortunately, the stats do no indicate how many of these shots are taken with only a few seconds on the clock. Stephon seems to hit more of those despiration shots than JJ, but I cannot prove it either way. I have a suspicion that opponents have learned to back off JJ when there are only a few seconds left because they know he cannot hit them. (Maybe I'm giving the opponents more credit than they deserve, but scouting in the NBA has improved a lot.)
If JJ should not be shooting 3's, then it is up to M D'A to stop him. Not every player should have the green light all the time -- but that comes from the top.
Stephon is a different story. We may be forced to accept the bad with the good from him. I think better execution by the rest of the team will help him more than might be expected.
:wink:
My guess is that Penny's complaint (assuming he made it) was more accurately directed at JJ than Stephon, although I can see how it would be ascribed to Marbury.
For the past two seasons I have been complaining about the Suns shooting too many 3's. The problem with 3's is that while they pad the player's stats, they tend to hurt the team.
In theory, shooting 33% of 3's is equivalent to 50% of 2 point shots. The problem is that in practice shooting 3's generates long rebounds that trigger fast breaks. If anything, the Suns tend to shoot more 3's when the opponent is making a run, which only makes things worse.
In another thread, I mentioned that JJ shoots twice as many 3's per minute as Penny, but hits only 26% of them. Penny's 3 point shots are hit at almost the same percentage as his overall average. (The same can be said about Casey).
Unfortunately, the stats do no indicate how many of these shots are taken with only a few seconds on the clock. Stephon seems to hit more of those despiration shots than JJ, but I cannot prove it either way. I have a suspicion that opponents have learned to back off JJ when there are only a few seconds left because they know he cannot hit them. (Maybe I'm giving the opponents more credit than they deserve, but scouting in the NBA has improved a lot.)
If JJ should not be shooting 3's, then it is up to M D'A to stop him. Not every player should have the green light all the time -- but that comes from the top.
Stephon is a different story. We may be forced to accept the bad with the good from him. I think better execution by the rest of the team will help him more than might be expected.
Penny is the 4th or sometimes 5th option on this team and recently he has been probably shooting the highest percentage of any of the players. Next to Scott he has the most experience on a consistently winning team. Williams is the only Sun player with any championship jewelry however his rings have come on the coat tails of Jordan.
With that said, Penny should be able to give his teammates the benefit of his experience. He is the only Sun that has been the number 1 or 2 option on a successful team with plenty of playoff experience. In reality .... Our leaders Marion and Marbury can't speak on any of the things that Penny has experienced. I ain't mad at Penny because he didn't say anything in that article that I hadn't thought.
With that said, Penny should be able to give his teammates the benefit of his experience. He is the only Sun that has been the number 1 or 2 option on a successful team with plenty of playoff experience. In reality .... Our leaders Marion and Marbury can't speak on any of the things that Penny has experienced. I ain't mad at Penny because he didn't say anything in that article that I hadn't thought.
Chaplin
Better off silent
That's the problem. Right now, he shouldn't be the 4th or 5th option--with the way he is playing, he should easily be our 3rd option, not JJ. When Amare and Z come back, maybe that will change, but Penny has played himself into a much bigger role. And I mean, isn't that what we've always wanted for the past 4 years?
George O'Brien
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One of the problems with making JJ the third of fourth option is that means he gets the ball with only a few seconds left on the shot clock. It takes time to drive to the basket, but that is what JJ needs to be doing.
JCSunsfan
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Penny will NEVER be part of a Suns championship team. That is why he plays on the bench. We are making a commitment to younger players EVEN IF THEY DON'T PERFORM AS WELL AS THE OVERPAID VETS.
Dem's da berries, Penny. You can whine about it all the way to the bank.
The crit of JJ is fascinating to me. If he passes the ball and plays D, he's not aggressive enough (that was the main complaint about him up til now). If he's aggressive, then he's selfish. Make up your minds!
He's not likely our long term answer, but at least he is tradeable.
If JJ isn't the answer, try Casey. If he doesn't work out, go to Barbosa. If neither one of them is the answer, try the draft next summer, a FA signing, or a trade. Whatever the case, Penny is not going to be our starter, except for spot duty when someone is injured or someone needs a wakeup call.
This seems to be a very ill-advised comment from Penny. If he really wants to make a point, name names. My hunch is that he is talking about JJ primarily. If he is, his comment was foolish in that it certainly looks like he's calling out Steph. Steph is the leader on this team, and Penny's picked a fight with the wrong guy if he's calling out Steph.
And for all the Penny apologists, I would make this same criticism of anyone else on the team if they said something similar.
Dem's da berries, Penny. You can whine about it all the way to the bank.
The crit of JJ is fascinating to me. If he passes the ball and plays D, he's not aggressive enough (that was the main complaint about him up til now). If he's aggressive, then he's selfish. Make up your minds!
He's not likely our long term answer, but at least he is tradeable.
If JJ isn't the answer, try Casey. If he doesn't work out, go to Barbosa. If neither one of them is the answer, try the draft next summer, a FA signing, or a trade. Whatever the case, Penny is not going to be our starter, except for spot duty when someone is injured or someone needs a wakeup call.
This seems to be a very ill-advised comment from Penny. If he really wants to make a point, name names. My hunch is that he is talking about JJ primarily. If he is, his comment was foolish in that it certainly looks like he's calling out Steph. Steph is the leader on this team, and Penny's picked a fight with the wrong guy if he's calling out Steph.
And for all the Penny apologists, I would make this same criticism of anyone else on the team if they said something similar.
elindholm
edited for content
Again, I rather doubt that Hardaway said any such thing. But if he did, it seems clear that he must be talking about Marbury. When has Johnson had 25 points and 10 assists? Ever? Hardaway (if the quote is accurate) feels like he should be the team's leader, never mind their starting SG.
I couldn't agree more. If this is a direct quote, and I believe it is, there should be no doubt who lead is directed towards. It's definitely not directed at JJ. He's not trying to average 25 points and 10 assists, and he definitely has no shot at making the All-Star team.
It's definitely about Marbury. Bolvin was just on the radio. She indicated that this dialogue started last week, and I do agree that Marbury has played some individualistic basketball over the last couple of weeks. The fourth quarter of that Sacramento game in particular standout in my mind. However I think it was wrong to call him out in the media. I also think he needs to realize that a lot of the problem is that none of Marbury's teammate step up to help him out. Hardaway stands around the perimeter just as much as Joe Johnson and Shawn Marion do. Is there a reason to get them involved when they are basically going to pass the ball around the three-point line or maybe stand there and dribble until the shot clock is down to a few seconds?
Scott Williams is on the radio right now. He is saying that the team gets along really well, and they have good off the court chemistry. He's basically agreeing with Hardaway that some of the players have wanted to get some of the attention that other players were getting last year during the success. Now Williams did say that he had not read the entire story. He had basically just listened to what had been talked about on the radio. I think when he read some of the quote he will realize that this is directed at Marbury.
On the radio they keep saying that this might have been a good thing because this team needed a kick in the pants. I disagree. It's one thing to come out and say something like Marbury has been saying over the last couple games. That is that the team needs to work harder and come alive. It's an entirely different and more destructive thing to say people are only playing for themselves trying to get themselves in the All-Star game. I just don't see how that helps.
And for those of you who think that we all just want to jump on Penny Hardaway's case I say of Marbury had said this exact same things about other players on the team we would be complaining just the same. This isn't about Hardaway. It's about the things he said.
Joe Mama
elindholm
edited for content
And for those of you who think that we all just want to jump on Penny Hardaway's case I say of Marbury had said this exact same things about other players on the team we would be complaining just the same.
I would complain, but not to the same degree. It is one thing for a team's franchise player to say something like that, even if his own performance has been substandard recently. It is quite another for the "calling out" to come from a spiteful, broken-down, role-playing veteran who is psychologically unable to accept his reduced role and skills.
If he said it at all, that is.
I would complain, but not to the same degree. It is one thing for a team's franchise player to say something like that, even if his own performance has been substandard recently. It is quite another for the "calling out" to come from a spiteful, broken-down, role-playing veteran who is psychologically unable to accept his reduced role and skills.
If he said it at all, that is.
George O'Brien
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The agressiveness we are looking for has to do with attacking the basket, not throwing up threes. As it is, he tends to be indecisive when gets the ball and gives the defense time to react. When Zarko was playing, he rarely had the ball in hands for more than an instant. He either shot or passed as soon as he got the ball, rather than agonizing over what to do.
As a side note, I keep wondering if there is something about the way JJ shoots the ball that gives it a side spin rather than a top spin. I swear I have never seen a shooter have as many balls spin out of the basket as JJ gets.
elindholm
edited for content
I swear I have never seen a shooter have as many balls spin out of the basket as JJ gets.
That's often due to a poor (low) arc. I haven't studied Johnson's shot enough to notice whether this is an issue, but I'll look out for it. Unless anyone has some insight into this already.
That's often due to a poor (low) arc. I haven't studied Johnson's shot enough to notice whether this is an issue, but I'll look out for it. Unless anyone has some insight into this already.
msdundee
Registered
"He's basically agreeing with Hardaway that some of the players have wanted to get some of the attention that other players were getting last year during the success."
I believe Penny's comment was more likely directed at Marion, and Shawn as much as admitted it with statements in a recent article in the Trib. Said he felt "left out" of the offense this year, said "everyone knows this is Steph's and my team." Marion mailed it in most games until Amare went down, and at that point he very suddenly and obviously picked it up big-time. Before last year he got most of the attention. Now we have a new boy wonder who's getting all the press and his feelings were hurt. The NBA is full of egos.
I believe Penny's comment was more likely directed at Marion, and Shawn as much as admitted it with statements in a recent article in the Trib. Said he felt "left out" of the offense this year, said "everyone knows this is Steph's and my team." Marion mailed it in most games until Amare went down, and at that point he very suddenly and obviously picked it up big-time. Before last year he got most of the attention. Now we have a new boy wonder who's getting all the press and his feelings were hurt. The NBA is full of egos.
IMO, JJ's shot just doesn't seem to have some "touch". I know that's very vague but you'll notice that most of his misses are really bad CLANKS. He looks good while shooting it though but the results are the direct opposite. It's like he just tosses the ball around the basket vicinity. Even his drives and short pull ups are like that.
Chaplin,
Please r-e-a-d my message about the Nickel. My main complaint is that he whines about **** in the media.
When he wants to stand up and be self accountable...when he wants to talk TO a teammate instead of ABOUT a teammate then he won't get slammed on this board.
It is pretty simple. I could care less how good he has been playing when he does things that are detrimental to the team as a whole. Maybe somewhere in your self-absorbed universe you missed out on the fact that I have been a staunch Hardaway supporter since last season. Oh, but that doesn't fit into the "Chaplin's smug ass guide to always being right"
Please r-e-a-d my message about the Nickel. My main complaint is that he whines about **** in the media.
When he wants to stand up and be self accountable...when he wants to talk TO a teammate instead of ABOUT a teammate then he won't get slammed on this board.
It is pretty simple. I could care less how good he has been playing when he does things that are detrimental to the team as a whole. Maybe somewhere in your self-absorbed universe you missed out on the fact that I have been a staunch Hardaway supporter since last season. Oh, but that doesn't fit into the "Chaplin's smug ass guide to always being right"
Chaplin
Better off silent
Give me a break.
That's the best you can do? Another veiled personal insult? This site is full of em.
Sorry Chaplin,
I don't think I have said one negative thing to you in at least two years.
That being said, you seem to be a magnet for insults here. It must be everyone else but you though right
I don't think I have said one negative thing to you in at least two years.
That being said, you seem to be a magnet for insults here. It must be everyone else but you though right
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First of all, Penny saying that thing about getting 25 points and 10 dimes doesn't have to be directed at Stephon Marbury at all. As an individual basketball player, pretty much the best you could do is average those stats and be an all-star, so Penny is stating that some players on this team are reaching for those types of games instead of the types of games where you get a W.
So far this year, this team has been crap. Every game we lose, it's always "forget about it, we have a game in 2 days, let's look to that." That's fine, until the losses start piling up. Mike D'Antoni says you need luck to get out of a slump. Stephon Marbury says you gotta focus on the positives. It doesn't seem like Shawn Marion quite understands, and Scott Williams doesn't hold enough credibility because he is a guy averaging like 15 minutes a night. Somebody needed to say it. Players are sulking on the court, but once the game is over they act like everything is fine. I have news for you guys, and I think Penny Hardaway would agree with me on this: Everything is not fine. This team does need a kick on the ass. Now, I guaruntee you everybody that read Penny's comments is going to be focusing on the games a little closer, seeing if players might be playing somewhat selfishly. The next time somebody displays a "me-first" attitude on the court, we'll all see it. And, believe it or not, that's a deterrent.
The fact of the matter is, whether Penny's comments are true or not, it will certainly force some self examination. At least it will if some of these guys will look past their egos and see the truth as it is.
In the NBA where nobody is held truly accountable, this might have been a very good thing for Penny to do. The team struggles for the first 20 games of the season, and who is blamed? Frank Johnson. Now the players think, "well, it's not my fault that we've been losing, it's our coach's." D'Antoni's record is horrible, it's his fault. Penny's comments will force some of the players to reevaluate their roles on this team, and their part in this young season's blunders.
Penny Hardaway is the ONLY player on this team who has been a 1st or 2nd option on a lot of playoff teams. Stephon Marbury has had very little success anywhere he's gone. Shawn Marion has been notorious for folding in the playoffs. Joe Johnson's never been there before, and either has Amare or Barbosa or Voskhul or Zarko or any of these guys. Bottom line: Penny knows how to win. So when he says something, I suggest these young guys listen. Because let's face it, we are 9-16, and that's far from okay.
So far this year, this team has been crap. Every game we lose, it's always "forget about it, we have a game in 2 days, let's look to that." That's fine, until the losses start piling up. Mike D'Antoni says you need luck to get out of a slump. Stephon Marbury says you gotta focus on the positives. It doesn't seem like Shawn Marion quite understands, and Scott Williams doesn't hold enough credibility because he is a guy averaging like 15 minutes a night. Somebody needed to say it. Players are sulking on the court, but once the game is over they act like everything is fine. I have news for you guys, and I think Penny Hardaway would agree with me on this: Everything is not fine. This team does need a kick on the ass. Now, I guaruntee you everybody that read Penny's comments is going to be focusing on the games a little closer, seeing if players might be playing somewhat selfishly. The next time somebody displays a "me-first" attitude on the court, we'll all see it. And, believe it or not, that's a deterrent.
The fact of the matter is, whether Penny's comments are true or not, it will certainly force some self examination. At least it will if some of these guys will look past their egos and see the truth as it is.
In the NBA where nobody is held truly accountable, this might have been a very good thing for Penny to do. The team struggles for the first 20 games of the season, and who is blamed? Frank Johnson. Now the players think, "well, it's not my fault that we've been losing, it's our coach's." D'Antoni's record is horrible, it's his fault. Penny's comments will force some of the players to reevaluate their roles on this team, and their part in this young season's blunders.
Penny Hardaway is the ONLY player on this team who has been a 1st or 2nd option on a lot of playoff teams. Stephon Marbury has had very little success anywhere he's gone. Shawn Marion has been notorious for folding in the playoffs. Joe Johnson's never been there before, and either has Amare or Barbosa or Voskhul or Zarko or any of these guys. Bottom line: Penny knows how to win. So when he says something, I suggest these young guys listen. Because let's face it, we are 9-16, and that's far from okay.
Chaplin
Better off silent
Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
Sorry Chaplin,
I don't think I have said one negative thing to you in at least two years.
That being said, you seem to be a magnet for insults here. It must be everyone else but you though right
Sorry, didn't mean to imply that it meant you said "another" thing to me--it's just par for the course for SOMEONE to make it personal. That's all.
That said, I find it quite condescending that my difference of opinion still forces people to respond in this manner.
So again why doesn't he try talking to his teammates instead of about his teammates?
Where is Penny saying "Even I need to work harder"
There is Penny and then there is the Nickel. This stuff is straight from the Nickel.
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