Per Gery Woeffell .....Phoenix Suns offering Goran Dragic for first round pick

[SunsFan89]

Think I might have to start posting again. Still follow this forum from time to time, and don't have as much time to post my thoughts.

I'm fortunate enough to sit really close to the Suns bench every game. I can tell you the vibe sucks, and has sucked for most of the year. Some of the players don't listen, especially with all the crap music playing during the game. Bledsoe, IT, Green, Plumlee all have sulked on the bench like sour lemons at different points of the year. You can't have that. Some of the players on this team are in it for themselves, could give a rat's ass about the team. As long as they're getting minutes and shots... that's all they need.

Last game against Houston, Bledsoe and company missed Dragic a few consecutive times sitting in the corner for open J's. Dragic was clearly pissed as he walked back to the huddle, screaming to the coaches they had missed him "4 times". It was really the first time (that I saw) Dragic seemed genuinely frustrated.

Just some quick thoughts...

- Dragic. He's not the problem. How does a 3rd team All-NBA player get frozen out? Hasn't played his best, he'd be the first to tell you. I think he's deferred too much to Bled/IT. I still think he's the heart and soul of this franchise.

- Bledsoe. Remarkable talent. Will drive a coach nuts. The question I have is does he have the ability to play hard every night? PHX is hard to beat when Bledsoe is running full tilt 38 minutes and not turning the ball over.

- IT. Freak scorer. That's it. Pure Scoring Guard. Awful PG. Luxury player to have on championship team. IT needs to remember that he didn't lift SAC to the playoffs or anything close to .500 ball. Ish Smith was just fine. And, I think Tyler Ennis will be a helluva player in a few years. IT (in my mind) will be gone by the trade deadline.

- Marcus Morris. I kind of have a feeling that the tirade Marcus laid on Hornacek was his ticket out of town. Soon. Based on recent events, it may not be in the best interest of the brothers to keep them together.

- Miles Plumlee. What the hell has happened to this guy from the beginning of last season to today? If he were playing in NY, he'd be ripped to shreds by the media.

- PJ Tucker. Quit yapping at your teammates and just play some D and mix it up. Lead by example, not your mouth.

- Gerald Green. Just a couple weeks ago, McDonough was saying how badly they wanted to re-sign Green and he was a part of their future. Would not surprise me to see him gone for practically nothing within the next week.

- Alex Len. Kid's a player. Just needs some time, help on the front line, and stay away from nut-job players like Robin Lopez.

I've loved the Suns since I was 6. But, I'm not naive enough to think that this team doesn't have issues. I'm actually shocked that they still have the 8 seed, so I guess things could be worse.

What about Markieff Morris?

 

[WildBB]

I'm not as invested in this team as much as I was 5 years ago, but I don't understand why Bledsoe is getting so much hate. Sure he has his flaws like anyone, but he's far and away our best player.

To me, the decision isn't Bledsoe OR Dragic. It's Thomas or Dragic.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. It's about that and what they already shelled out to Bledsoe at the position. Thomas isn't better, but he's cheaper, bottom line. They'll have to throw more Big bucks at Len in two or three years to extend him.

 

[slinslin]

Thomas has been at least as good as Dragic this season, actually he has been considerably better so far.

It is not just like Thomas is cheaper, though his contract is a bargain as the value on it even decreases over the next 3 years.

 

[devilalum]

If the Suns get a first for Dragic next year they'll be able to field an entire starting lineup of late first round picks in Bakersfield.

 

[sunsfan88]

- IT. Freak scorer. That's it. Pure Scoring Guard. Awful PG. Luxury player to have on championship team. IT needs to remember that he didn't lift SAC to the playoffs or anything close to .500 ball. Ish Smith was just fine. And, I think Tyler Ennis will be a helluva player in a few years. IT (in my mind) will be gone by the trade deadline.

Great point and agreed 100%. Someone said the other day that IT is basically a SG in a 5'8 body and that's another accurate way to describe him.

Good to see someone who goes to every game agree with that assessment.

I second this! Please do post more. I am very interested in observations from behind the Suns bench.

I third this. Someone from the actual game sees things a lot differently than what we see on TV.

 

[slinslin]

Isaiah Thomas last season 60 passes per game

Goran Dragic last season 55 passes per game

But yeah Thomas is really a SG and Dragic is a true PG

 

[AzStevenCal]

I third this. Someone from the actual game sees things a lot differently than what we see on TV.

I agree but probably not in the way you meant it. I used to attend most home games and I can tell you, I see FAR MORE of the game itself sitting in front of my big screen TV than I ever did in the Coliseum, especially with the advent of high definition and DVR technology. The difference is incredible but with the right seats you can pick up things at the game that you will almost never become privy to in your living room - namely, the things happening on and around the bench. You get a much better sense of the emotional state of the players and the interactions with the coaching staff.

Steve

 

[WildBB]

Thomas has been at least as good as Dragic this season, actually he has been considerably better so far.

It is not just like Thomas is cheaper, though his contract is a bargain as the value on it even decreases over the next 3 years.

And we know from last season that Dragic is more than capable of taking over the game. He's been under utilized and plays better D.

That said it is all about the money and that they have a better ball handler in Enis sitting right now, on the cheap as well.

 

[slinslin]

Dragic has been much worse defensively than Thomas. We also know that Thomas is capable of taking over games based on last season and this season.

And I am not sure how a PG can be under utilized because regardless of whether you think that Dragic is playing as a SG he is still a PG and touches the ball a lot, he just does not produce as well as he has last year.

Hornacek certainly is not telling Dragic to play passive or sulk on the court. You can bet that Hornacek is trying to get him play aggressively.

Btw Goran Dragic's record as starting PG? 56W - 86L
11-12 Dragic at PG 13 Wins 13 Losses
12-13 Dragic at PG 23 Wins 54 Losses
13-14 Dragic at PG 20 Wins 19 Losses

 

[AzStevenCal]

And we know from last season that Dragic is more than capable of taking over the game. He's been under utilized and plays better D.

That said it is all about the money and that they have a better ball handler in Enis sitting right now, on the cheap as well.

This really isn't the case IMO. Goran is a decent defender when he plays the 2 position but he's weak against the 1's and obviously, the 3's, when he's forced to defend that position.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

I agree but probably not in the way you meant it. I used to attend most home games and I can tell you, I see FAR MORE of the game itself sitting in front of my big screen TV than I ever did in the Coliseum, especially with the advent of high definition and DVR technology. The difference is incredible but with the right seats you can pick up things at the game that you will almost never become privy to in your living room - namely, the things happening on and around the bench. You get a much better sense of the emotional state of the players and the interactions with the coaching staff.

Steve

Yea this is what I meant.

But you would need seats right behind our bench which I think sly fly has.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yea this is what I meant.

But you would need seats right behind our bench which I think sly fly has.

It sounds like it.

Steve

 

[BC867]

Yea this is what I meant.

But you would need seats right behind our bench which I think sly fly has.

Which, of course, no TV coverage can show us at home all game long. Not even 5% of the looks and comments of the players and coaches, throughout the game.

Please keep us posted, sly fly.

P.S.: Could you go out on the road with the Suns, too?

 

[Sci Fi]

Trade idea.

Goran, Zoran and Alex Len for Dwight Howard (plus needed fillers).

Any takers on either side?

 

[SirStefan32]

Trade idea.

Goran, Zoran and Alex Len for Dwight Howard (plus needed fillers).

Any takers on either side?

If the Suns Tucker, I would have ZERO reasons to watch them at that point.

 

[elindholm]

Trade idea.

Goran, Zoran and Alex Len for Dwight Howard (plus needed fillers).

Any takers on either side?

Just curious -- have you thought about how you would respond to this post if anyone else had made it? You'd call the person an idiot, with no elaboration, and then throw in another shot or two about how all Suns fans are blind and clueless.

 

[Sci Fi]

What makes you say that?

If I were a new poster, you'd basically call me an idiot, and then have no sense of quilt after you did it. You've done it several times that I've seen and when called on it you ignored it.

Is there a difference?

There is an incredibly huge chance I wouldn't respond at all. I make less than one post a day.

Here's a thought you should consider. Are people confrontational with others who are confrontational, just like you're doing now, or do they just do it wantonly?

This is an incredibly interesting trade idea from so many angles, even if it will never happen.

 

[Cheesebeef]

What makes you say that?

If I were a new poster, you'd basically call me an idiot, and then have no sense of quilt after you did it. You've done it several times that I've seen and when called on it you ignored it.

Is there a difference?

There is an incredibly huge chance I wouldn't respond at all. I make less than one post a day.

Here's a thought you should consider. Are people confrontational with others who are confrontational, just like you're doing now, or do they just do it wantonly?

This is an incredibly interesting trade idea from so many angles, even if it will never happen.

What's interesting about a trade that will never happen?

 

[Joe Mama]

This really isn't the case IMO. Goran is a decent defender when he plays the 2 position but he's weak against the 1's and obviously, the 3's, when he's forced to defend that position.

Steve

I know this will get some people going, but one-on-one, face-to-face Dragic is a better defender than Eric Bledsoe. Eric Bledsoe is better at fighting through/over screens which of course is a huge part of being a defender in the NBA. It's also a lot easier to post up on Dragic. I believe both of those advantages for Bledsoe are because he's built like a tank whereas the screen game seems to wear on Goran. Neither one of them are giving 100% effort on defense all the time. They each give up a lot of easy penetration. Just about every perimeter player on the Suns is far too aggressive closing out on shooters and they give up all lot of penetration from that.

Joe

 

[Phrazbit]

I know this will get some people going, but one-on-one, face-to-face Dragic is a better defender than Eric Bledsoe. Eric Bledsoe is better at fighting through/over screens which of course is a huge part of being a defender in the NBA. It's also a lot easier to post up on Dragic. I believe both of those advantages for Bledsoe are because he's built like a tank whereas the screen game seems to wear on Goran. Neither one of them are giving 100% effort on defense all the time. They each give up a lot of easy penetration. Just about every perimeter player on the Suns is far too aggressive closing out on shooters and they give up all lot of penetration from that.

Joe

... if all you're saying is that when Goran is right in front of a shooter he can get a better challenge off than Bledsoe then... maybe its debatable, but Goran gets torched one on one on a regular basis, no screen, he just gets beat off the dribble because he does not contain well. Bledsoe is much much much better about keeping his man in front of him, one on one, through screens, whatever, I don't think its even a comparison and the stats play it out pretty vividly, Bledsoe is also one of the best help defenders amongst guards in the NBA.

 

[slinslin]

I know this will get some people going, but one-on-one, face-to-face Dragic is a better defender than Eric Bledsoe. Eric Bledsoe is better at fighting through/over screens which of course is a huge part of being a defender in the NBA. It's also a lot easier to post up on Dragic. I believe both of those advantages for Bledsoe are because he's built like a tank whereas the screen game seems to wear on Goran. Neither one of them are giving 100% effort on defense all the time. They each give up a lot of easy penetration. Just about every perimeter player on the Suns is far too aggressive closing out on shooters and they give up all lot of penetration from that.

Joe

That is absurd considering Dragic can't even measure up defensively to Isaiah Thomas.

Or how do you explain that Dragic allows more points per pick and roll or isolation that he defends.

How do you explain that Bledsoe ranks #3 of 81 Point Guards in defensive RPM? Only John Wall and Michael Carter-Williams rank higher while Dragic ranks 74th among 98 shooting guards.

 

[Joe Mama]

... if all you're saying is that when Goran is right in front of a shooter he can get a better challenge off than Bledsoe then... maybe its debatable, but Goran gets torched one on one on a regular basis, no screen, he just gets beat off the dribble because he does not contain well. Bledsoe is much much much better about keeping his man in front of him, one on one, through screens, whatever, I don't think its even a comparison and the stats play it out pretty vividly, Bledsoe is also one of the best help defenders amongst guards in the NBA.

I'm saying if it's just one-on-one Dragic is actually better. Bledsoe gets beaten off the dribble a surprising amount of time when it's just one-on-one defense. I've been watching this since last season. At first last year it really surprised me because his reputation was as such a great defender. Now as an overall defender I agree with you that Bledsoe is better because of his strength. Of course I think Dragic is that much better than Bledsoe on offense. And please don't pull up a bunch of statistics to show me otherwise because I am going to tell you that most of that is because of the way he's being utilized this year.

Having said all that I am not excited about paying those guys a combined $30 million plus each season with Thomas taking another $7. I wish I felt better about it. As much as I really do like Dragic could not justify a deal approaching $20 million per season for him.

Joe

 

[BC867]

I'm saying if it's just one-on-one Dragic is actually better. Bledsoe gets beaten off the dribble a surprising amount of time when it's just one-on-one defense. I've been watching this since last season. At first last year it really surprised me because his reputation was as such a great defender. Now as an overall defender I agree with you that Bledsoe is better because of his strength. Of course I think Dragic is that much better than Bledsoe on offense. And please don't pull up a bunch of statistics to show me otherwise because I am going to tell you that most of that is because of the way he's being utilized this year.

Having said all that I am not excited about paying those guys a combined $30 million plus each season with Thomas taking another $7. I wish I felt better about it. As much as I really do like Dragic could not justify a deal approaching $20 million per season for him.

Joe

I think each of your points is right on, especially the part about Goran being mis-used.

Dragic ranks 74th among 98 shooting guards.

Because, as Joe alluded to, he is a Point Guard playing Shooting Guard, and even Small Forward in the 4th quarters.

He rejoined the Suns to be the lead Point Guard. They screwed him and now you're ridiculing him for it.

That is adding insult to injury.

 

[sunsfan88]

I think each of your points is right on, especially the part about Goran being mis-used.


Because, as Joe alluded to, he is a Point Guard playing Shooting Guard, and even Small Forward in the 4th quarters.

He rejoined the Suns to be the lead Point Guard. They screwed him and now you're ridiculing him for it.

That is adding insult to injury.

Not only that but stats are a terrible way to measure anyone defensively.

I remember that Pelicans game when Tyreke Evans treated Bledsoe like a rag doll and destroyed him and then they had to switch Dragic on to him to even slow him down a bit.

All that said, I still think Bledsoe is the better defender but I can certainly understand Joe Mama's argument and its a valid one.

 

[Phrazbit]

I think each of your points is right on, especially the part about Goran being mis-used.


Because, as Joe alluded to, he is a Point Guard playing Shooting Guard, and even Small Forward in the 4th quarters.

He rejoined the Suns to be the lead Point Guard. They screwed him and now you're ridiculing him for it.

That is adding insult to injury.

Of the stated positions I would say that he is actually worst at covering point guards.

I don't know what kind of glasses one has to wear, but its hard to say watching, and impossible to say statistically that Goran is any where near Bledsoe as a defender in any way imaginable.