Per Jurecki...(Horton's Jets TD decision and Dockett fined)

[Red Dawn]

Our offense is terrible - do you really think they would be able to move the ball, score and get a 2 pt conversion? That's crazy, lol

This is getting used alot lately but:

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[Cardinals.Ken]

@kentsomers: So let me get this straight. Player ignores coach order. Starts fight with teammate. And some of you think that ok? Wow

My question to Mr. Schill...err...I mean Mr. Sommers/The Whis & Co. would be:

"When has allowing the other team to score quickly, so that your team could get the ball back to take one more crack at the endzone ever work?"

I'm 100% behind Fartbox on this; you play to win...always.

You never lay down, regardless of strategy.

Shame on The Whis & Co., especially Horton for even considering such an "order".

 

[WarnerHOF]

No, it wasn't questionable at all. You let the Jets score and you're down by 8 with a kickoff upcoming and 1:30 or so on the clock to drive for a TD and 2pt conversion. Very unrealistic to think the offense would do anything, but at least we'd have the fate in our own hands. Not allowing the Jets to score resulted in them kneeling twice and we never saw the ball again.

My point was that Whis has no guts and no sense of urgency late in games when we're behind. At least letting them score would've meant a CHANCE. You have NO chance if the Jets kneel to kill the clock. That was my point. Go back and look at SB32 when the Packers let the Broncos score late in the game. It gave them one last shot at a touchdown to tie or even win the game.

Simply allowing the other team to kneel is GIVING UP especially when you had another option in a one possession game. Easy to say in hindsight of course.

This is true. Letting the team take the kneel down is unequivocally playing for stats.

 

[Darkside]

Cards DC Ray Horton ordered the code red, he asked Whiz to let the Jets score.

Looks like we know who should be the head coach moving forward. Glad to hear one of our coaches has guts. Love Ray-Ray!!!

I don't think it has anything to do with guts, but I do want to address your point. Mathematically and on paper letting them score gives us the best chance to win--that's not a gutsy call. That being said, I totally get why Dockett was adamantly against the idea: as putrid as this offense is, the chances of them forcing a fumble and getting the ball back is roughly the same as our disgusting offense marching down the field, scoring a TD, and then scoring a 2 pt conversion, after they hadn't even secured a first down all freaking game. It wasn't going to happen, and so I totally get why Dock would be so upset--because from his perspective the chances of them forcing a TO were the same as our offense scoring a TD. The chances of either thing happening are roughly zero, but I don't blame Dock for wanting the opportunity, given that our offense couldn't generate a single 3rd down conversion.

As far as the whole Horton V Whis debate, there's no evidence Horton would be a good head coach, but there's evidence that Horton has his guys much better prepared than Miller and Whis have their guys (on offense) prepared.

Anecdotal evidence:

The Cards have forced a turnover on the first offensive play of the opponent in four different games this season: Against the Patriots, Jets, Bills and Falcons.

Both he and Johnson talked about knowing the Jets’ first play, which resulted in a Rhodes’ interception.

“There were guys from the sideline yelling out the play because we could see from the splits the receivers were giving us things we had talked about during the week,” Johnson said. “So a lot is how prepared we are as a unit.”

Those are quotes from just one game. Four games this season we've gotten a turnover on our opponents first play of the game! When is the last time our offense was able to say: "We saw some looks that were exactly what we were looking at in practice and we executed our scheme the way coach told us to." When is the last time that happened?

I consider myself a Whis supporter (IE., apologist) but the injury excuse really doesn't fly with me anymore. We don't have perfect players on defense, but they are coached very well and out-scheme our opponents.

Now the Cards are second in the league behind the Bears’ 20 picks. The Cardinals’ defense leads the league in percentage of interceptions at 4.9 percent of the 370 passes against Arizona. The Cardinals also have nine fumble recoveries, and the 27 total turnovers is fourth in the NFL behind three teams in playoff contention – Chicago, New England and the Giants.

“If I had to put it too anything, it’s the pressure we get, the pressure (Horton) is calling,” said safety Rashad Johnson, who had an interception and fumble recovery in Atlanta. “D-Wash (linebacker Daryl Washington) coming through the A-gap, a lot of quarterbacks see those types of looks and their eyes get big and think, ‘We’ve got to get rid of this ball.’
“Sometimes we show that and drop into a zone, and the QB is thinking he has to get rid of it and he throws it to the wrong guy. We create a lot of confusion.”

Schemes and coaching. That's what coaches do. We may not have SB talent on defense, but we have a SB defense because of coaching. And we're wasting it, along with a HOF'er like Larry Fitzgerald. Do people realize how many millions he's making per catch because we can barely get this guy the ball? How many millions per yard? It's ridiculous and comes down to coaching and schemes.

I'm not advocating we get rid of Whis--I'm an apologist and Whis lover after all--but we need to bring in Norv Turner as offensive coordinator at the bare minimum. And anyone who blames injuries rather than schemes and coaching is looking in the wrong place. This wreck of an offense didn't develop overnight. It took years of neglect to get this putrid.

http://www.azcardinals.com/news-and...urnovers/7ab0c990-e9a3-4a0f-8867-79db8b563c70

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't think it has anything to do with guts, but I do want to address your point. Mathematically and on paper letting them score gives us the best chance to win--that's not a gutsy call. That being said, I totally get why Dockett was adamantly against the idea: as putrid as this offense is, the chances of them forcing a fumble and getting the ball back is roughly the same as our disgusting offense marching down the field, scoring a TD, and then scoring a 2 pt conversion, after they hadn't even secured a first down all freaking game. It wasn't going to happen, and so I totally get why Dock would be so upset--because from his perspective the chances of them forcing a TO were the same as our offense scoring a TD. The chances of either thing happening are roughly zero, but I don't blame Dock for wanting the opportunity, given that our offense couldn't generate a single first down.

As far as the whole Horton V Whis debate, there's no evidence Horton would be a good head coach, but there's evidence that Horton has his guys much better prepared than Miller and Whis have their guys (on offense) prepared.

Anecdotal evidence:







Those are quotes from just one game. Four games this season we've gotten a turnover on our opponents first play of the game! When is the last time our offense was able to say: "We saw some looks that were exactly what we were looking at in practice and we executed our scheme the way coach told us to." When is the last time that happened?

I consider myself a Whis supporter (IE., apologist) but the injury excuse really doesn't fly with me anymore. We don't have perfect players on defense, but they are coached very well and out-scheme our opponents.





Schemes and coaching. That's what coaches do. We may not have SB talent on defense, but we have a SB defense because of coaching. And we're wasting it, along with a HOF'er like Larry Fitzgerald. Do people realize how many millions he's making per catch because we can barely get this guy the ball? How many millions per yard? It's ridiculous and comes down to coaching and schemes.

I'm not advocating we get rid of Whis--I'm an apologist and Whis lover after all--but we need to bring in Norv Turner as offensive coordinator at the bare minimum. And anyone who blames injuries rather than schemes and coaching is looking in the wrong place. This wreck of an offense didn't develop overnight. It took years of neglect to get this putrid.

http://www.azcardinals.com/news-and...urnovers/7ab0c990-e9a3-4a0f-8867-79db8b563c70

Excellent post.

Steve

 

[Crazy Canuck]

My question to Mr. Schill...err...I mean Mr. Sommers/The Whis & Co. would be:

"When has allowing the other team to score quickly, so that your team could get the ball back to take one more crack at the endzone ever work?"

I'm 100% behind Fartbox on this; you play to win...always.

You never lay down, regardless of strategy.

Shame on The Whis & Co., especially Horton for even considering such an "order".

It isn't about laying down. The strategy was about a last chance, albeit small, of tieing and possibly winning. If this had never, ever succeeded they wouldn't have consiered it. And one way or another it wasn't DD's call.

 

[jw7]

Looks like the fine is going to be $200K

Twitter Linky

 

[AzStevenCal]

It isn't about laying down. The strategy was about a last chance, albeit small, of tieing and possibly winning. If this had never, ever succeeded they wouldn't have consiered it. And one way or another it wasn't DD's call.

And that's the only thing that really matters. Eleven men playing as one is a bit difficult when one of the eleven is going his own way.

Steve

 

[Gee!]

This is idiotic.. I have now lowered my faith in Horton.. For the call.. The fine would have never happened if the stupid call was never called..

 

[DemsMyBoys]

200K?

That's insane. How much were the Saints fined, total, for the Bounty Scandal and taking out Kurt? Patriots got how much for illegal videotaping. And 9-0 is fined 200K for not spitting? What am I missing here?

 

[RON_IN_OC]

No, it wasn't questionable at all. You let the Jets score and you're down by 8 with a kickoff upcoming and 1:30 or so on the clock to drive for a TD and 2pt conversion. Very unrealistic to think the offense would do anything, but at least we'd have the fate in our own hands. Not allowing the Jets to score resulted in them kneeling twice and we never saw the ball again.

My point was that Whis has no guts and no sense of urgency late in games when we're behind. At least letting them score would've meant a CHANCE. You have NO chance if the Jets kneel to kill the clock. That was my point. Go back and look at SB32 when the Packers let the Broncos score late in the game. It gave them one last shot at a touchdown to tie or even win the game.

Simply allowing the other team to kneel is GIVING UP especially when you had another option in a one possession game. Easy to say in hindsight of course.

Maybe Whis new the current trend of teams laying down on the 1 yard line to run out the clock! You NEVER give up! That's a crapout by Horton.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

Yup, it's $200K...Must be more going on behind the scenes. Personally, I think Rhodes is protecting his teammate...which is something I agree with.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...ett-fined-more-than-100k-by-arizona-cardinals

 

[AzStevenCal]

200K?

That's insane. How much were the Saints fined, total, for the Bounty Scandal and taking out Kurt? Patriots got how much for illegal videotaping. And 9-0 is fined 200K for not spitting? What am I missing here?

This is a pretty big deal, what Dockett did. Whether you agree or disagree with the decisions made by your coach you never intentionally do the opposite of what they've instructed. How can you depend on any player if he believes he's bigger than the rest of the team, that he's free to go in the direction he chooses regardless of orders. It's unfathomable to me. If someone had started a rumor that DD did this, I'd dismiss it out of hand because it's just not done, ever, and especially not by one of the team leaders.

Steve

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

This is idiotic.. I have now lowered my faith in Horton.. For the call.. The fine would have never happened if the stupid call was never called..

Bull, Dockett is responsible for his own actions and should be more mature. That being said, the fine is too hefty.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

It isn't about laying down. The strategy was about a last chance, albeit small, of tieing and possibly winning. If this had never, ever succeeded they wouldn't have consiered it. And one way or another it wasn't DD's call.

Perhaps...maybe 50 years ago some team fell for this.

But, the logic is flawed from from it's inception; it assumes that the other team are idiots (insert Rex Ryan joke here) that do not realize what is going on, and that they will gleefully score without any knowledge of the consequences.

Shonn Greene taking a dive at the 1 yard line proves this point. If ever it was a viable strategy, the cat is out of the bag and everyone is aware of it now.

If it's all about the "last chance, albeit small, of tieing and possibly winning" then that bush-league crappola that Schiano pulled during the final moments of the Buc's game against the Giants is appropriate as well.

Perhaps if Horton had designed a nice blitz scheme/package specifically to try to force a fumble on the kneel down? I would be more behind that than laying my defense down to get the ball back, and I'm not behind it at all.

Just my two cents worth.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

Bull, Dockett is responsible for his own actions and should be more mature. That being said, the fine is too hefty.

So Dockett should just follow, and do as he's told regardless of his personal convictions? Why, because Horton's his boss?

You, of all people, should see how silly that thought process is.

 

[DemsMyBoys]

This is a pretty big deal, what Dockett did.

I realize that. But 200K?

No. You get control of your team. You don't hand out 200K fines. Fining him 200K shows what kind of leadership exactly? How on earth is that going to do what needs to be done to get this team back on track?

 

[Dr. Jones]

200K might be high.

However.... He did something that N. Suh or B. Romanowski have never done. He spat in his own teammates face after ignoring instructions from his coach.

 

[Gee!]

Bull, Dockett is responsible for his own actions and should be more mature. That being said, the fine is too hefty.

I didn't say anything about the fine other than if the stupid call by Horton was never made, there wouldn't be a fine.. The whole point of my post was that the call to lay down and let them score was idiotic and my view of Horton has been diminished..

( the fine BTW, is ridiculous )

 

[DemsMyBoys]

The Cardinals (Hey, Whiz) need to figure out a way to harness 9-0's passion. What he did is also the reason he plays the way he does. All out until he's standing with two minutes left in the game gasping for breath.

Never destroy that. USE it!

 

[Shane]

So Dockett should just follow, and do as he's told regardless of his personal convictions? Why, because Horton's his boss?

You, of all people, should see how silly that thought process is.

Absolutely he should. there was nothing immoral by following this coaches decision. The only reason you have a leg to stand on in this case is if the coaches are asking you to do something 1. Illegal 2. Immoral This doesnt follow under either.

The fine is stiff. But certainly warranted.

 

[Dr. Jones]

First off..... It was the right call. Mathematically, Statistically, and practically. Dockett let his own feelings get in the way of the greater good.

Plus...... You don't ignore your coaches.

 

[Gee!]

First off..... It was the right call. Mathematically, Statistically, and practically. Dockett let his own feelings get in the way of the greater good.

Plus...... You don't ignore your coaches.

It was the wrong call. The jets sniffed it and knelt down at the one yard line.. Great call..

 

[Shane]

It was the wrong call. The jets sniffed it and knelt down at the one yard line.. Great call..

Cant control that. But still was the right call. I would bet if Dockett was on here preaching that he wished we would have let them score and we hadn't you would be claiming that was the right call

 

[Lagerfilled]

Horton said it best on the radio... The goal is to WIN the game, not pad his defensive units PPG stats. To me, that's true leadership - Sacrificing for the good of team. Sorry, but DD is a subordinate and he needed to do what he was told. End of story!!!