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Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
100% argeement with this.
Per Jurecki, Skelton to start vs Seahawks
- Thread starter Chopper0080
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100% argeement with this.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
I fee he *could* be a good coach, but he outsmarts himself, gets too stubborn, plays favorites, refuses to adapt his system...yadda yadda yadda...the list goes on. All he would have to do is become flexible and realize his shortcomings. Sure, it may sound simple, but to an egomaniac of a head coach? It's the hardest thing in the world to push him into. And if he doesn't remedy these things willingly (and if he couldn't do it by now, he likely never will), it won't work.
To conclude, I don't feel he is a good coach, but a coach who cannot get out of his own way.
100% disagreement with this
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Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
100% disagreement with this
I am willing to eat crow if we get someone else turns the ship around if you are willing to eat crow if Whis turns it around.
All I want are wins, playoffs and the Super Bowl, and I don't care who gets us there.
I fee he *could* be a good coach, but he outsmarts himself, gets too stubborn, plays favorites, refuses to adapt his system...yadda yadda yadda...the list goes on. All he would have to do is become flexible and realize his shortcomings. Sure, it may sound simple, but to an egomaniac of a head coach? It's the hardest thing in the world to push him into. And if he doesn't remedy these things willingly (and if he couldn't do it by now, he likely never will), it won't work.
To conclude, I don't feel he is a good coach, but a coach who cannot get out of his own way.
I agree that this a good description of Whiz. He creates his own ceiling for success.
Cbus cardsfan
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Almost all coaches are egomaniacs. They have to be.I fee he *could* be a good coach, but he outsmarts himself, gets too stubborn, plays favorites, refuses to adapt his system...yadda yadda yadda...the list goes on. All he would have to do is become flexible and realize his shortcomings. Sure, it may sound simple, but to an egomaniac of a head coach? It's the hardest thing in the world to push him into. And if he doesn't remedy these things willingly (and if he couldn't do it by now, he likely never will), it won't work.
To conclude, I don't feel he is a good coach, but a coach who cannot get out of his own way.
100% disagreement with this
Where I disagree is that if Whiz was all the things you suggest, the players would hate playing for him. Instead they continue to play hard and you don't hear any rumblings from the players.
I keep going back to the QB. Whiz has had 2 good QB's to work with and both times he's gone to the Super Bowl. And both times with different styles. So to say he is not adaptive is not true. In Pittsburgh, they ran the ball over 600 times the year Whiz was OC and won the SB. I did a post awhile back showing how Whiz was by far the most run oriented OC under Cowher.
In Arizona, they were near the league lead in pass attempts when they went to SB.
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Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
Again, agreed.
Both the '05 Steelers and '08 Cardinals were loaded with veteran players who had been with the team for years. Shows me that Coach 0-12 can coach its the talent evaluation that is lacking.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
I don't understand how you square the circle where with a young QB in Pittsburgh "he chose" to run the ball 600 times, while the next year with a young QB he came out the gate passing 60%+ of the time.
Do you think that Whis became a head coach and suddenly changed his entire offensive approach?
Cbus cardsfan
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I agree. You never heard me, or many for that matter, raving on his talent evaluation skills. In fact, that is probably his main weakness. It seems like he thinks he can make do with less than stellar talent. Hence,Joey Porter and the like.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Well, you just argued against your own post, so I don't have to do much to shoot this down
He was an OC under Cowher, who was a run-oriented coach. How in the heck do you think he was going to coach? What do you think if he went all egomaniac and told Cowher his system worked and he wasn't going to change it? He had no choice but to coach that way there, so no, it doesn't show any kind of flexibility as a head coach. He has shown complete and utter INflexibility as the head honcho. Seriously, you really undermined your own argument there.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
Well, you just argued against your own post, so I don't have to do much to shoot this down
Seriously, you really undermined your own argument there.
Mularkey:
2001 - 454 passes, 580 rushes; 56% rush
2002 - 551 passes, 512 rushes; 48% rush
2003 - 532 passes, 446 rushes; 46% rush
Whis:
2004 - 358 passes, 618 rushes; 63% rush
2005 - 379 passes, 549 rushes; 59% rush
2006 - 523 passes, 469 rushes; 47% rush
2007:
Steelers under Arians - 442 passes, 511 rushes; 53% rush
Cards under Whisenhunt - 590 passes, 402 rushes; 41% rush
So... What seems to be the trend? That the Steelers go back to core values when they hire a new offensive coordinator--run the ball, and let the offense absorb the passing game. Did Whis pick up on this?
Clearly not, because he came out in his first year throwing the ball all over the field. But wait, CBus might say, the Cards had Warner in the last quarter of the season as the starter. He probably skews the sample. Au contraire! Whis came out balanced to begin the season in San Francisco (28 passes, 38 rushes), and then promptly went pass whacky for the Seahawks game (37 passes, 26 rushes) and for the rest of the year.
Cbus cardsfan
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I don't really know what you're saying here and how you came to that conclusion.Well, you just argued against your own post, so I don't have to do much to shoot this down
Seriously, you really undermined your own argument there.
Actually, if you look at the numbers, Cowher has been about 50/50 run/pass coach. Whiz takes over the offense, and play calling, and runs it at a far greater clip than any of the other OC's under Cowher. I'm taking that your premise is that Cowher made Whiz run the ball more than any of his other OC's even though Whiz, in his own mind, wanted to chuck it around the field all day like he does in Arizona.
My thinking is Whiz saw his personnel in Pitts, with a rookie QB, power running game, and very good defense and tailored his playcalling to that team.
In Arizona,after his intial 7 games, he saw Fitz, Boldin, Warner,the makings of a dynamic passing game, and a sketchy defense, therefore adjusted the offense to match the personnel and it took off in the last half of '07 and into '08.
The result, eventually both were SB teams.
Another reason I think Whiz adjusted to his personnel can be seen in the stats. In Whiz's first 5 games, the Cards had three 100+ yard rushing games and one 300+ yard passing game. In the last 11 games they had three 100+ rushing games and four 300+ yard pasiing games.
In fact, once he sold into Warner, 3 of the last 4, and 4 of the last 6 games produced 300+ yards passing.
So, I don't see anywhere that shows he has been inflexible. It's just that now the results aren't there. BUt that's to be expected when you go from an OL that had started about 30+ games together to one with a new RG and 2 new OT's, Kurt Warner to Ryan Lindley/Skelton, and a WR corps of Fitz, Boldin, Breaston/Johnson to Fitz, Roberts, Floyd.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
I'll still debate whether or not the shift in philosophy was due to him or Cowher. Regardless, he HAS been inflexible. Look at how long it took him last year to shift to max protect. Good coaches would make the adjustments at HALFTIME. It took him 1/4 of the season to do it--'gee, maybe we should try to *help* our line out!'. And if that isn't bad enough, he didn't want to do it this season either! It took him time to make that adjustment AGAIN. So, sometimes he makes adjustments, but they happen well after they're needed, so we're already screwed.
And on the subject of adjustments, let's talk about the in-game adjustments he makes. Oh yeah, he doesn't do that. Huh.
As for the above bolded part...yes, I would agree that this makes perfect sense...IF KW weren't such an inflexible coach. He has power and input in player personnel; if many are to be believed, he has total power over these areas. You'd think, given that we DON'T have the personnel to run that offense, he'd have focused on getting us run mauler OLmen, shifted focus entirely, and gone back to the ground and pound type of offense you claim he was responsible for in Pittsburgh.
This is why I don't really believe it was his decision to do so; if it were, why in the HELL wouldn't he do that here? Either he was flexible in Pittsburgh but is too stupid to do it here, or he's just inflexible, and that's what's hurting us. Either way, he needs to go.
Starting Skelton gives the Cards a better chance of winning than anyone else we have. That does not make him worthwhile but our most recent QB could not hit Lake Michigan if he were standing on the beach.
I feel the Cards are almost forced to sign a FA QB for 2013 and I hope they also drat a QB #1. Keep on doing it until they finally find a QB. It may take 1 year or 5 years but until we have a QB we will continue down the same old path. Amazing what Manning has done for the Broncos after they were 8/8 a year ago. Amazing what a rookie like RG, luck, Keppernick are doing for their teams. I suspect a good QB is 50% of a teams offense. He effects the defense and offense and the mindset of the entire team. It may not be all Whiz's fault but this is a case where we need to make a change for the sake of change. He had no QBs to work with and had more than his share of injuries but that does not change the situation. If we think Horton is the best choice for the Head Coach next year we should be doing what ever tit takes to assure that. Horton knows he is going to have a choice of jobs so it may be he would not come to the Cards if offered the job. He knows how the internal organization works and may want no part of it. He knows we have no QB. I heard one head coach recently remark he would take no head coaching job from a team who did not have a good QB. I tend to agree with that. Some coordinator would likely do that but not many Head Coaches. I surely hate to say it but I hope we lose out so we can draft a QB as high as we can. Will our team play all out and risk injury with us in our current position? Some will but most want. I suspect those trying to keep a job will play all out. Among those will be Skelton you can be sure. I will be watching the games with half my brain wanting us to win and half wanting us to lose.
Dayman
ASFN Addict
It's pretty hilarious that Whiz's future in AZ is now in the hands of a QB he deemed worse than Max Hall and Ryan Lindley at various points.
"You know what they say about being nice to the right people on the way up,
Sooner or later you're gonna meet them coming down."-Bob Dylan
"You know what they say about being nice to the right people on the way up,
Sooner or later you're gonna meet them coming down."-Bob Dylan
Well there is hope. After all with Skelton at QB last year the Cards won 6 of 8.
It would be better though if the Skelton hadn't regressed from last year to the point that he no longer belongs in the NFL other than as a #3 QB.
