Picking a Right Tackle

[TJ]

You don't have to re-sign Johnson, I don't understand the insistence on extending HB immediately after another major injury, yes on pass rusher, yes on center, yes on backup QB.

I just don't think you need a star at RT, or someone who will be commanding top tackle money - just someone to keep DJ honest and who could fill in as a starter if necessary.

The thought of a season hinging on DJ is terrifying, and I'd prefer some form of insurance.

Fortunately, we're discussing the right tackle position and not the left, so I wouldn't say anything is "hinging" on DJ nor is it "terrifying." Terrifying would be having Sowell, Batiste, or Levi as a left tackle. The RT position was ok last season even with Watford and Massie's inconsistent play.

As for Rashad, for all intents and purposes, he was the quarterback of the defense. When he was out, the communication seemed to break down and players in the secondary didn't know where they were supposed to go. He's arguably the smartest player on the defense, and I'm not sure how much of that, along with his playmaking ability, are replaceable.

Regarding Badger, his extension is almost imminent, and if the knee was a major concern, Keim would not have already sent him an offer. If you wait another season, you either a) have to franchise him, b) potentially extend him for far more than you would today if he has another breakout season, or c) let him test free agency. The knee may also help the Cardinals to be more flexible in contract negotiations. Instead of having to put up more guaranteed money, it can be rolled into annual non-guaranteed bonuses. He's going to cost a lot of money to retain, so having those kind of provisions in case of a setback would be helpful.

 

[TJ]

just riding or dying on a guy at T who couldn't even be on the active roster once last year seems pretty crazy to me. I don't think we should go out and blow a ton of money on a RT, but there's no obligation to hand over a massively important position on the O-line to anyone.

Is Watford still under contract? If he is, I'm not in a panic to go out and get a shiny new RT because I thought he held down the fort pretty well there and would be solid competition with Humphries.

Watford is still here for one more season, so there's your insurance if you really want/need it.

Simply put---we cant blow the bank on yet another offensive lineman that's not a center; and even there, we shouldn't blow the bank. Im 10x more comfortable with DJ as a RT than I am with AQ as a center, and I'm not even a DJ fan. Far too many priorities to even consider another high-dollar guy at tackle.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

The ideal situation would be that Humphries plays to his talent level and is starting at LT with Veldheer at RT.

 

[Cardiac]

The ideal situation would be that Humphries plays to his talent level and is starting at LT with Veldheer at RT.

I'm on this wagon but I can't see it happening in 2016.

 

[Stout]

just riding or dying on a guy at T who couldn't even be on the active roster once last year seems pretty crazy to me. I don't think we should go out and blow a ton of money on a RT, but there's no obligation to hand over a massively important position on the O-line to anyone.

Is Watford still under contract? If he is, I'm not in a panic to go out and get a shiny new RT because I thought he held down the fort pretty well there and would be solid competition with Humphries.

Thank you for the perfect response. I'm rather meh on Watford, but at RT we can probably get a reasonably priced veteran to compete at the position. A lot of people are simply making ride or die remarks, or just ready to hand the kid the job. Like you said, he couldn't be on the active roster once next year. That is the definition of crazy pants, handing him the job, IMO. The way you tank as a franchise is playing players because of draft position and $$$ rather than talent and ability.

 

[Goldfield]

You people are way too hasty and judgemental.
DJ Humphries is a 21 year old child. He will be a star 3 years from now.

I agree about the judge mental part. No way we're we going to start a rookie with a potential SB team. DJ was drafted for the future, he's way young and super athletic. I bet he starts at RT next year and does ok. Then the next year's he should be good.

 

[BACH]

Contributors of this thread should listen to the latest Big Red Rage Podcast with Steve Keim visiting.

He states that both DJ and Cooper are expected to start and it's up to them if they are going to start, because there's going to be competition for the starting positions. They just have to play well enough to win the starting position.

He's asked directly about about DJ and if he's disappointed about him not playing. The answer is a clear NO. DJ was drafted for an incredible talent, but they knew that he was very raw with his limited starting experience in college.

 

[TJ]

Thank you for the perfect response. I'm rather meh on Watford, but at RT we can probably get a reasonably priced veteran to compete at the position. A lot of people are simply making ride or die remarks, or just ready to hand the kid the job. Like you said, he couldn't be on the active roster once next year. That is the definition of crazy pants, handing him the job, IMO. The way you tank as a franchise is playing players because of draft position and $$$ rather than talent and ability.

So who's a "reasonably priced" FA veteran RT who can compete with DJ who would also be better than Watford? Consider, you already have $26mil in cap room allocated to the o-line, and that's with AQ Shipley as your starting center, at the moment.

 

[Harry]

I keep hearing DJ is raw. He comes out of an established program with good coaching. I can't recall the last time I heard of a first round OT that didn't play a down in his first season. It certainly wasn't because the talent at the position was so great. He did show good athleticism for a guy his size in college, but maturity (work ethic) and being raw are not the same thing for me. He seems to lack that mean streak and love for the game that a player must have deep down when he's hurting and has to persevere. BTW at this stage of his career Penn wouldn't break the bank. If DJ beats him out you have a solid G/T backup. The Cards have free agent dollars. They can't/won't buy a pass rusher of note. OT is a good place to invest some of the dollars.

 

[Stout]

So who's a "reasonably priced" FA veteran RT who can compete with DJ who would also be better than Watford? Consider, you already have $26mil in cap room allocated to the o-line, and that's with AQ Shipley as your starting center, at the moment.

I don't know. I'm not a capologist, and I don't know enough to speculate on the dollars at that position.

I keep hearing DJ is raw. He comes out of an established program with good coaching. I can't recall the last time I heard of a first round OT that didn't play a down in his first season. It certainly wasn't because the talent at the position was so great. He did show good athleticism for a guy his size in college, but maturity (work ethic) and being raw are not the same thing for me. He seems to lack that mean streak and love for the game that a player must have deep down when he's hurting and has to persevere. BTW at this stage of his career Penn wouldn't break the bank. If DJ beats him out you have a solid G/T backup. The Cards have free agent dollars. They can't/won't buy a pass rusher of note. OT is a good place to invest some of the dollars.

I'm liking what Harry has to say on the topic. I'll just add a +1 here.

 

[WildBB]

ARZ could get a good OT in Round 3 or 4.

Kyle Murphy
Spencer Drango
La'Raven Clarke
Joe Haeg
John Theus

Don't forget our 3rd is almost a 4th.

 

[Finito]

I keep hearing DJ is raw. He comes out of an established program with good coaching. I can't recall the last time I heard of a first round OT that didn't play a down in his first season. It certainly wasn't because the talent at the position was so great. He did show good athleticism for a guy his size in college, but maturity (work ethic) and being raw are not the same thing for me. He seems to lack that mean streak and love for the game that a player must have deep down when he's hurting and has to persevere. BTW at this stage of his career Penn wouldn't break the bank. If DJ beats him out you have a solid G/T backup. The Cards have free agent dollars. They can't/won't buy a pass rusher of note. OT is a good place to invest some of the dollars.

Yes you can be raw coming out of good college . CC was VERY raw coming out of The U but he was a huge man with great athletism and that was a potential pick he didn't amount to much his first couple of years how people forget this.

The book on DJ coming out was he has the size and is a great athlete with a mean streak however he didn't really know how to play the position he was lacking fundamentals. This was a depth pick.

Watford played very well while Massie was out.

A funny thing has happened here on this board. The more we win the more some Cardinal fans love touch with reality and perspective. Fans complaining about DJ not beating out Massie but Massie is actually a very good RT and will def get paid by someone. It wasn't that long ago our line was the joke of the NFL.

DJ is gonna be alright

 

[kerouac9]

Yes you can be raw coming out of good college . CC was VERY raw coming out of The U but he was a huge man with great athletism and that was a potential pick he didn't amount to much his first couple of years how people forget this.

The book on DJ coming out was he has the size and is a great athlete with a mean streak however he didn't really know how to play the position he was lacking fundamentals. This was a depth pick.

Watford played very well while Massie was out.

A funny thing has happened here on this board. The more we win the more some Cardinal fans love touch with reality and perspective. Fans complaining about DJ not beating out Massie but Massie is actually a very good RT and will def get paid by someone. It wasn't that long ago our line was the joke of the NFL.

DJ is gonna be alright

I'm less concerned with Humphries being unable to beat out Massie than I am with him being able to beat out Sowell or Watford. Watford, who'd never played tackle until training camp and Humphries face-planted, and Sowell, who is hot garbage.

Your first round pick should be able to get off the scout team in 16 weeks.

 

[juza76]

I'm less concerned with Williams being unable to beat out Massie than I am with him being able to beat out Sowell or Watford. Watford, who'd never played tackle until training camp and Williams face-planted, and Sowell, who is hot garbage.

Your first round pick should be able to get off the scout team in 16 weeks.

Williams?

 

[kerouac9]

Williams?

Humphries. D.J. Williams was a good ILB for the Broncos.

 

[Stout]

I'm less concerned with Humphries being unable to beat out Massie than I am with him being able to beat out Sowell or Watford. Watford, who'd never played tackle until training camp and Humphries face-planted, and Sowell, who is hot garbage.

Your first round pick should be able to get off the scout team in 16 weeks.

+1

 

[football karma]

my optimistic (with a heavy dose of rationalization) take on DJ:

1. with the spread offense in college, many, many tackles come into the NFL just not prepared on fundamentals. Fisher, Joeckel, L Johnson, Matthews et al have all shown up and been bad their first year but improved the next

2. Arians seems would rather put a less talented player who know what he ought to be doing out there than a more talented one who will make a mistake. Larsen over Cooper as an example. While Sowell isnt good -- I guess Arians thinking is that he will at least slow up a rusher while getting beat vs Humphries just flat our turning one completely free.

3. Arians has seen life without Palmer, and is erring on the side of protecting him. He wasnt willing this year to let DJ learn on the fly.

as a side note: for as good a job as Keim has done overall -- developing o-linemen has not been good.

 

[WildBB]

my optimistic (with a heavy dose of rationalization) take on DJ:

1. with the spread offense in college, many, many tackles come into the NFL just not prepared on fundamentals. Fisher, Joeckel, L Johnson, Matthews et al have all shown up and been bad their first year but improved the next

2. Arians seems would rather put a less talented player who know what he ought to be doing out there than a more talented one who will make a mistake. Larsen over Cooper as an example. While Sowell isnt good -- I guess Arians thinking is that he will at least slow up a rusher while getting beat vs Humphries just flat our turning one completely free.

3. Arians has seen life without Palmer, and is erring on the side of protecting him. He wasnt willing this year to let DJ learn on the fly.

as a side note: for as good a job as Keim has done overall -- developing o-linemen has not been good.

Ahhh... Yes, Humphries is a rookie this year. We need him to develop into the RT we need now.

I think that Watford could also handle the position if need be.

 

[Cardiac]

my optimistic (with a heavy dose of rationalization) take on DJ:

1. with the spread offense in college, many, many tackles come into the NFL just not prepared on fundamentals. Fisher, Joeckel, L Johnson, Matthews et al have all shown up and been bad their first year but improved the next

2. Arians seems would rather put a less talented player who know what he ought to be doing out there than a more talented one who will make a mistake. Larsen over Cooper as an example. While Sowell isnt good -- I guess Arians thinking is that he will at least slow up a rusher while getting beat vs Humphries just flat our turning one completely free.

3. Arians has seen life without Palmer, and is erring on the side of protecting him. He wasnt willing this year to let DJ learn on the fly.

as a side note: for as good a job as Keim has done overall -- developing o-linemen has not been good.

I agree with all this.

 

[Chopper0080]

I keep hearing DJ is raw. He comes out of an established program with good coaching. I can't recall the last time I heard of a first round OT that didn't play a down in his first season. It certainly wasn't because the talent at the position was so great. He did show good athleticism for a guy his size in college, but maturity (work ethic) and being raw are not the same thing for me. He seems to lack that mean streak and love for the game that a player must have deep down when he's hurting and has to persevere. BTW at this stage of his career Penn wouldn't break the bank. If DJ beats him out you have a solid G/T backup. The Cards have free agent dollars. They can't/won't buy a pass rusher of note. OT is a good place to invest some of the dollars.

So, I look at 1st round linemen being drafted over the years and I believe it is safe to come to the conclusion that the learning curve has increased from playing tackle in college vs tackle in the pros. I agree with the belief that you have to have an option on the roster to fill in if Humphries fails again, but I also see that Humphries is not the only young offensive lineman to fail to make an impact in year one. I don't like the fact that Humphries didn't start year one, but I don't view his failure to suit up as a bad thing either. When it comes to refining muscle memory and technique, the worst thing you can do is rush. The same goes with QB mechanics. If you rush, the player in naturally regress to what he has done for 3 or 4 years vs what he has practiced for 4 months.

This isn't to say that Hump will be a great player. I don't know. I didn't love the pick, but I also know that you can't improve the line without inserting drafted talent. We will see. I am more optimistic on Hump than I am on Cooper which is sad.

 

[TJ]

I'm less concerned with Humphries being unable to beat out Massie than I am with him being able to beat out Sowell or Watford. Watford, who'd never played tackle until training camp and Humphries face-planted, and Sowell, who is hot garbage.

Your first round pick should be able to get off the scout team in 16 weeks.

I don't think it's so much that Humphries could not beat out Sowell or Watford, but rather, the coaches and front office had an individualized plan from Day 1 to give him a de facto red shirt season to get mental reps, learn the speed of the game during practice, and familiarize himself with the intricacies of playing the position at the professional level versus in college, in which he only played in 22 games.

I hate to use this term, especially for a first-round pick; but DJ was more or less a "draft and stash" player.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't think it's so much that Humphries could not beat out Sowell or Watford, but rather, the coaches and front office had an individualized plan from Day 1 to give him a de facto red shirt season to get mental reps, learn the speed of the game during practice, and familiarize himself with the intricacies of playing the position at the professional level versus in college, in which he only played in 22 games.

I hate to use this term, especially for a first-round pick; but DJ was more or less a "draft and stash" player.

Evidence for this? Or is this as supported as your "Daryl Washington is coming off suspension any day now/it's the NFL's fault for dragging their feet" assertion?

Active roster spots on game day are precious. The fact of the matter is that D.J. Humphries should've made Sowell expendable from Week 1. There's no evidence that "From Day 1" the Cards intended Humphries to be inactive; if that were the case, the staff wouldn't have leaked "Knee Deep."

Campbell said on BRR at the end of the season that Humphries was "falling over himself" early in the year. Having him practice and get that muscle memory at LT instead of RT for the past year should be a HUGE red flag about where he actually fits in to the plan at this point.

IMO, Humphries was a value pick that there wasn't a plan for. I'm not sure I buy that the Cards had legitimate trade down offers that were more appetizing. I think they took the best player available on their board, and it's possible that a risky prospect at a fairly low-risk position just isn't good.

We'll know in a couple months.

 

[Chopper0080]

Evidence for this? Or is this as supported as your "Daryl Washington is coming off suspension any day now/it's the NFL's fault for dragging their feet" assertion?

Active roster spots on game day are precious. The fact of the matter is that D.J. Humphries should've made Sowell expendable from Week 1. There's no evidence that "From Day 1" the Cards intended Humphries to be inactive; if that were the case, the staff wouldn't have leaked "Knee Deep."

Campbell said on BRR at the end of the season that Humphries was "falling over himself" early in the year. Having him practice and get that muscle memory at LT instead of RT for the past year should be a HUGE red flag about where he actually fits in to the plan at this point.

IMO, Humphries was a value pick that there wasn't a plan for. I'm not sure I buy that the Cards had legitimate trade down offers that were more appetizing. I think they took the best player available on their board, and it's possible that a risky prospect at a fairly low-risk position just isn't good.

We'll know in a couple months.

I would agree that the Cardinals drafted Hump believing he would either beat out Massie or make Sowell expendable, neither of which happened. They took what they thought was the best player on the board at a value position and assumed he would make an impact right away. I do believe that once the Cardinals saw that Hump wasn't ready to beat out Sowell out of training camp, they decided to sit him for the year unless injuries arose. My guess is that depth at tackle was the only reason he wasn't put on IR for an "injury".

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't think it's so much that Humphries could not beat out Sowell or Watford, but rather, the coaches and front office had an individualized plan from Day 1 to give him a de facto red shirt season to get mental reps, learn the speed of the game during practice, and familiarize himself with the intricacies of playing the position at the professional level versus in college, in which he only played in 22 games.

I hate to use this term, especially for a first-round pick; but DJ was more or less a "draft and stash" player.

I really doubt Arians would have ridden Humphries as hard as he did, blasting him in the media if their plan from Day 1 was to de facto red shirt the kid.

 

[kerouac9]

I would agree that the Cardinals drafted Hump believing he would either beat out Massie or make Sowell expendable, neither of which happened. They took what they thought was the best player on the board at a value position and assumed he would make an impact right away. I do believe that once the Cardinals saw that Hump wasn't ready to beat out Sowell out of training camp, they decided to sit him for the year unless injuries arose. My guess is that depth at tackle was the only reason he wasn't put on IR for an "injury".

I don't know. If you're on IR you can't practice, and that leads to a whole host of other, Jonathan Cooper-type, problems. I think the last thing you want to do if you have a guy with motivation and focus issues is send him back to Florida for 12 months.