Player changes so far.

[F-Dog]

I know you think Sarver is simply cheap.

I don't think that at all. I haven't seen any evidence to contradict it, but I'm holding my opinion on the subject until next summer.

It's true that I don't think there's ever an excuse to sell first-round picks, but there's no reason to believe that Sarver is behind the #27 debacle. It could easily be a matter of incompetence in the front office.

See, sarcasm is easy. I can do it.

Now there's a claim backed up with solid evidence.



It's easy to find the Ignore button too, George.

 

[Chaplin]

I don't think that at all. I haven't seen any evidence to contradict it, but I'm holding my opinion on the subject until next summer.

You see nothing to contradict it, but you see something to support it? I don't get it--do you assume everyone is cheap until they prove otherwise?

It's true that I don't think there's ever an excuse to sell first-round picks, but there's no reason to believe that Sarver is behind the #27 debacle. It could easily be a matter of incompetence in the front office.

Now there's a claim backed up with solid evidence.

And what evidence is that? If Sarver wasn't a part of that, which you yourself have postulated, why get rid of the pick? AND get $3 million in return for it? People seem to forget that part.

I just wonder why a bunch of people on this board find it hard to believe that there were no players we wanted to develop at that spot. I'm a little surprised there wasn't anybody, but I'd much rather them help themselves in other ways than make a pick for no reason other than simply to make it.

 

[nowagimp]

Plus, IIRC the only first-round pick in recent history who's been unmoveable by the following summer was Julius Hodge, and I think he had a serious injury. ?

If another team knows the suns are trying to move someone to make more room for a draft pick, it INSTANTLY becomes more expensive. Its all business, you know what your trading partner needs and you make him pay for it. Part of the reason the suns couldnt get a backup point in a trade this year is that the other teams all KNOW that the suns are desperate to get Nash some rest, so that backup point gets alot more expensive. I suspect Ainge was holding his cards(or guards) until the suns got desperate and wanted to make his kind of deal. Next year, the suns can dump marks and have Pike on a minimumj as a poor mans TT. Ager does not fill any need in the frontcourt. The acquisition of banks makes ager useless to the suns in the backcourt.

I just dont see how the management of the suns can be viewed as "incompetent" not knowing any of the specifics of the proposed deals for a better pick or the scouting reports on the draft class of '06. Oh well, I guess the complaining on this board is not as bad as the howling that accompanied the JJ for Boris and 2 #1 picks deal last year.

 

[F-Dog]

You see nothing to contradict it, but you see something to support it? I don't get it--do you assume everyone is cheap until they prove otherwise?

No, exactly the opposite--I'm assuming (hoping?) Sarver isn't cheap, until the proof is incontrovertable.



I get the feeling you skim through my posts instead of actually reading them.

 

[F-Dog]

If another team knows the suns are trying to move someone to make more room for a draft pick, it INSTANTLY becomes more expensive.

You know what's really expensive? Paying the luxtax to sign Devean George for $1.6m, when you could have drafted Bobby Jones to do the exact same job for $800k.

You can burn through $3m pretty quick at the luxury tax line.

 

[Chaplin]

No, exactly the opposite--I'm assuming (hoping?) Sarver isn't cheap, until the proof is incontrovertable.

Then why mention the word "cheap" and Sarver in the same sentence? You wouldn't do that if you didn't think there was some truth in it.

 

[F-Dog]

Then why mention the word "cheap" and Sarver in the same sentence? You wouldn't do that if you didn't think there was some truth in it.

George wrote that, not me. I haven't used the word "cheap" in this thread, and I don't recall using it in another thread.


Maybe I should quit using the quote function, since it seems to confuse you.

 

[Chaplin]

George wrote that, not me. I haven't used the word "cheap" in this thread, and I don't recall using it in another thread.

You said:

It looks like the Suns will carry 13 this year, which is the number they're required to carry. They certainly haven't moved into luxury tax territory yet. What exactly is that $3m supposed to be buying again? Is Sarver not even willing to spend up to the luxtax if the Suns don't sell their draft first?

You're right, you never used the word "cheap", and perhaps its your wording, but it just seems that you're complaining about that $3million when, in your mind, there were players we could have had instead--which isn't accurate, from a basketball sense, it appears, since we didn't draft anyone.

Anyway, this mini-argument is getting personal, so I will refrain.

 

[Joe Mama]

You know what's really expensive? Paying the luxtax to sign Devean George for $1.6m, when you could have drafted Bobby Jones to do the exact same job for $800k.

You can burn through $3m pretty quick at the luxury tax line.

you can't honestly think that Bobby Jones will be as good this season as George. Are you forgetting that George has several seasons of championship experience? Good teams do not count on second round rookies, especially when there are good, veteran players to be had.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Devon can shoot, he's just too inconsistent for my taste. Bobby Jones can't shoot at all. If he could, he's have been in the first round because he's a great defender.

 

[Hugh D'Man]

Maybe I am missing something about this $3 mill pick sale...

I was under the impression we paid Boston = grant's salary (1.8) just to get him off our books.

2006 draft
= 21st + 27th + Brian Grant
= cleveland 2007 1st + 1.2 million

 

[Chaplin]

Maybe I am missing something about this $3 mill pick sale...

I was under the impression we paid Boston = grant's salary (1.8) just to get him off our books.

2006 draft
= 21st + 27th + Brian Grant
= cleveland 2007 1st + 1.2 million

We sold the 27th pick to Portland, who chose Sergio Rodriguez (and who might have taken Skita off waivers also).

 

[Joe Mama]

Maybe I am missing something about this $3 mill pick sale...

I was under the impression we paid Boston = grant's salary (1.8) just to get him off our books.

2006 draft
= 21st + 27th + Brian Grant
= cleveland 2007 1st + 1.2 million

Nope, Boston paid the rest of grant's salary. In return for the #21 draft pick the Phoenix Suns received the Cleveland 2007 first-round draft pick, and the Boston Celtics assumed the rest of grant's salary.

Joe Mama

 

[Hugh D'Man]

From nbadraft.net

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Phoenix acquires a future first-round pick from Boston for Brian Grant, the Draft rights to Rajon Rondo and cash considerations.[/FONT]

 

[F-Dog]

you can't honestly think that Bobby Jones will be as good this season as George. Are you forgetting that George has several seasons of championship experience? Good teams do not count on second round rookies, especially when there are good, veteran players to be had.

Joe Mama

Would I rather have Jones (or Novak, or Alex Johnson) over George this season? No. Would I rather have Jones next season? Quite possibly.

There's a point at which veterancy isn't worth that much--who would have been better as the Suns' 10th man last year, Brian Grant or Ryan Gomes? All that championship experience didn't prevent Devean from shooting 38% in the Phoenix series, or from getting eaten alive by Barbosa in game 7 of that series.


Anyway, my point was that Jones would have been an acceptable use of the pick (build your own role player from scratch, using a very solid four-year collegian) and also an acceptable use of the roster space (to provide intermittant minutes for developing a rookie, especially if they're planning to give some of those minutes to Sean Marks anyway). Right now, the Suns don't have any answer for either the pick or the roster space, so it looks like the real choice was between a second-round rookie and nothing.

 

[F-Dog]

Maybe I am missing something about this $3 mill pick sale...

I was under the impression we paid Boston = grant's salary (1.8) just to get him off our books.

2006 draft
= 21st + 27th + Brian Grant
= cleveland 2007 1st + 1.2 million

There's your mistake--as Chaplin said, the Suns sold the #27 pick to another team.

The Boston trade was #21 + BG for CLE 2007 #1+cash.

 

[Hugh D'Man]

FDog ... I realize that #27 was sold for $$$.
My point was we paid Boston to take Grant. Then repacked our pockets with the sale #27.

Thus the net result of the 2006 draft was Cleve's '07 #1 and $1.2 mill (3mill - 1.8 mill) and of course, 1.8 mill more in cap room.

I requote :

Phoenix acquires a future first-round pick from Boston for Brian Grant, the Draft rights to Rajon Rondo and cash considerations.

Signing Grant was a huge mistake, compared to what he was 'going' to provide, according to the talking heads when they signed him. He gave us nothing to speak of, and we had to buy his bus ticket out of town.

 

[Joe Mama]

Would I rather have Jones (or Novak, or Alex Johnson) over George this season? No. Would I rather have Jones next season? Quite possibly.

There's a point at which veterancy isn't worth that much--who would have been better as the Suns' 10th man last year, Brian Grant or Ryan Gomes? All that championship experience didn't prevent Devean from shooting 38% in the Phoenix series, or from getting eaten alive by Barbosa in game 7 of that series.

The Phoenix Suns are putting together this team to go after he championship THIS season. Lets face it. The chances that a player taken #27 or later is even going to amount to much in the NBA are pretty slim. You can point out two or three guys that have played fairly well in the summer leagues, but you know it's doubtful any of these guys who contribute next season or the season after. I hope you also realize that if the Phoenix Suns had used their draft choice version no guarantee they would have taken one of those players.

Anyway, my point was that Jones would have been an acceptable use of the pick (build your own role player from scratch, using a very solid four-year collegian) and also an acceptable use of the roster space (to provide intermittant minutes for developing a rookie, especially if they're planning to give some of those minutes to Sean Marks anyway). Right now, the Suns don't have any answer for either the pick or the roster space, so it looks like the real choice was between a second-round rookie and nothing.

See, it's not that I wanted the Phoenix Suns to sell the #27 draft pick. I would have been happy with Johnson, Novak, or Ager. I just don't think it's a big deal. I wasn't in love with any players at that point in the draft anyhow. Even you are only saying it would have been "acceptable" to use the draft pick. That hardly sounds like something to get upset over.

They basically bought out Brian Grant (I think we can all agree that his signing was a mistake), and traded the #21 for Cleveland's 2007 first-round pick. I wanted Marcus Williams there, but I can appreciate that there were reasons not to take him. I also think that Cleveland pick will have good value in next year's draft.

I also put some value in a good, veteran presence on the floor and in the locker room. I don't like that second guaranteed year on Pike's contract condom but otherwise I'm just and for the Phoenix Suns have done this summer. I like Sean Marks. He hasn't been a very efficient shooter over his career, but last season he shot 52% the better part of those shots being midrange jumpers.

Joe Mama

 

[F-Dog]

FDog ... I realize that #27 was sold for $$$.
My point was we paid Boston to take Grant. Then repacked our pockets with the sale #27.

So your guess is, Sarver wouldn't allow D'Antoni to trade the #21 pick if he didn't sell the #27 pick first? It's certainly possible, but (as I said before in this thread) I'd like to believe otherwise.


One big problem with the Suns receiving cash (instead of other assets) is that their finances are completely opaque. If the Suns were the most profitable team in the league each of the last two years, as Forbes claims, then they should already have had room in their budget to absorb a minor setback. (Remember that the Suns had 11 home playoff games this year, exactly as many as Dallas had; those games are supposed to be worth more than a million bucks a pop.)

If your theory is correct, my question would be, why are the Suns' pockets that empty in the first place? I can understand if Sarver is 'philosophically' opposed to paying the luxury tax, but if he expects to make normal profit on his $400m investment as well, then yes, he's cheap.

I'd prefer it if there was an alternative explanation.

 

[F-Dog]

The Phoenix Suns are putting together this team to go after he championship THIS season. Lets face it. The chances that a player taken #27 or later is even going to amount to much in the NBA are pretty slim. You can point out two or three guys that have played fairly well in the summer leagues, but you know it's doubtful any of these guys who contribute next season or the season after. I hope you also realize that if the Phoenix Suns had used their draft choice version no guarantee they would have taken one of those players.

Whatever their goals are, the team the Suns are putting together has a big, fat hole where their 10th man should be. Considering what the Suns knew before the draft (if they didn't get Thabo, they were looking at a very weak FA class, and their first target would be a guard) it's not that big a stretch to predict that at least one forward available at #27 would be useful.

As for whom, if the Suns had been forced at gunpoint to pick somebody at #27 last year, they probably would have gone with Ryan Gomes or David Lee, since those were the two players still available who'd impressed them in workouts. Coincidentally, either of those players would have been helpful for the Suns last season, and would also solve their current problem.

Did the Suns even work out Bobby Jones, Steve Novak or Alex Johnson this year? Not as far as I know.

Even you are only saying it would have been "acceptable" to use the draft pick. That hardly sounds like something to get upset over.

Since the alternative is "unacceptable", yeah, I'm upset.

 

[_Ra]

If the Suns did take any of those rooks it is basically a crap shoot. No need to take a chance on a rookie being productive for the 9th or 10th man. If we trade all 3 first round picks for a higher pick in next years draft would we be able to get a top 5 lottery pick?

It seems to me that having so much flexibility to trade up in next years draft is more important than taking a chance on a rookie who will only play 3 minutes per game just to say that you succeeded in bolstering the frontline.

A top 5 pick in next years draft is almost guaranteed that you would be getting a solid player.

 

[Joe Mama]

Whatever their goals are, the team the Suns are putting together has a big, fat hole where their 10th man should be. Considering what the Suns knew before the draft (if they didn't get Thabo, they were looking at a very weak FA class, and their first target would be a guard) it's not that big a stretch to predict that at least one forward available at #27 would be useful.

As for whom, if the Suns had been forced at gunpoint to pick somebody at #27 last year, they probably would have gone with Ryan Gomes or David Lee, since those were the two players still available who'd impressed them in workouts. Coincidentally, either of those players would have been helpful for the Suns last season, and would also solve their current problem.

You are mixing drafts now. I said a million times that I would have loved to get Blatche in the 2005 draft. The Phoenix Suns supposedly really liked Gomes and David Lee. However that's neither here nor there since they traded their pick last year in order to get rid of Q and get Kurt Thomas. We are talking about the 2006 draft... one that certainly looks a lot weaker.

Did the Suns even work out Bobby Jones, Steve Novak or Alex Johnson this year? Not as far as I know.


Since the alternative is "unacceptable", yeah, I'm upset.

I don't know if they worked out any of those players. I don't really care quite honestly. Their scouts spend a lot of time figuring out which players to bring in and looking at what they actually do in basketball games. BTW I could be wrong, but didn't Alexander Johnson have some pretty serious knee injury at Florida State?

The opposite of "acceptable" is "unacceptable". There are many alternatives such as the one I like which is "there might have been a player to that I would have liked at #27, but I don't have a problem with what they did".

Joe

 

[Errntknght]

If you look at the selling of #27 in isolation I'll have to admit its not a big deal but in light of what the team has been doing with draft picks of late, its sort of the last straw. They've been shedding draft picks at every turn - I know they have a good spin for it every time and, who knows, maybe some of the moves have been beneficial but to me the pattern indicates they don't have confidence in their ability to draft well.

I'm interested to see what they do next year - they've gotten themselves into a an enviable position in a strong draft so if they muck that up that really will be the last straw.

 

[Chaplin]

If you look at the selling of #27 in isolation I'll have to admit its not a big deal but in light of what the team has been doing with draft picks of late, its sort of the last straw. They've been shedding draft picks at every turn - I know they have a good spin for it every time and, who knows, maybe some of the moves have been beneficial but to me the pattern indicates they don't have confidence in their ability to draft well.

I'm interested to see what they do next year - they've gotten themselves into a an enviable position in a strong draft so if they muck that up that really will be the last straw.

So what is the last straw--selling a pretty much little worth #27 pick or waiting until next summer? Make up your mind.

And there is virtually no basis for comparing them selling the #27 and the team getting rid of the pick that could have been Igoudala or Deng.

 

[nowagimp]

I'm interested to see what they do next year - they've gotten themselves into a an enviable position in a strong draft so if they muck that up that really will be the last straw.

Question: will it be the last straw if they win the NBA championship this year? Will the suns be judged on winning or on drafting? What if all the players the suns could have drafted this year turn out to be duds? Will the "straw" be reevaluated? If the suns would have drafted Marcus Williams at 21, would Banks have signed? Which would you prefer to win now while Nash is still playing at the MVP level?