Playoffs: Nuggets @ Suns Friday game thread 5-5-2023 - Game 3

[Covert Rain]

Yeah but that change had to happen after his last start (or maybe it was his second to last start?). Midway through the 4th quarter of a close game, the other team started doubling off of him on every possession. Not a single player would get within 10 feet of him, they almost panicked if they found themselves in his general vicinity. This allowed them to double just about any player with the ball. And when our players started freezing him out completely for the final several minutes, it was clear something had to be done as there was no way that wasn't going to make team scouting reports. I blame him for a lot of things, I'm not sure this decision is one of them.

Yet Monty seemingly has gone back to Okogie and Craig is having a hard time staying off the bench.

 

[Hoop Head]

This isn't all on Monty and it's impossible to tell just how much of the blame should fall on him, on JJ, on the previous owner or the new one. But Monty is a head scratcher, some very basic problems really seem to be his fault. I think there's some overreaction going on right now (me included) that will disappear if we even up the series in Phoenix but I've been unimpressed by a lot of things over the past few years that appear to be on Monty.

I agree with that. Monty hasn't been perfect. He's been average at coaching this team. He doesn't have a lot to work with and I see people blaming him for Saban Lee now not being on the playoff roster when that's not Monty's call. I'm sure he has input but he's not the GM. I'm fine with him receiving some blame but not all the blame, as it seems he's been getting. It's now to the point he's being blamed for things in the past when those things didn't get mentioned until recently, like this whole new narrative of an "epic collapse" against the Bucks in the finals. No one was saying that until around this past off-season when they wanted to strengthen their claims that Monty sucks because of the very real collapse in game 7 vs Dallas.

It's also humorous how some of the very same people calling for Monty's job have changed their tune saying this year wasn't supposed to be our year, so why is Monty being ripped shreds then for making it this far with half a team? It seems like Monty has become the scapegoat that is usually reserved for a player. 2 years ago it was CP3, last year it was Ayton, in the past it was regularly Shawn Marion. Suns fans love a scapegoat. I've taken part in blaming some of them, it's real.

It's odd that the scapegoat/whipping boy is the a coach now though since he's the best coach we've had in 20 years, easily. Arguably he's on the same level or more accomplished than D'Antoni as a Suns coach since he's made the NBA Finals. Depending on who you ask though, it seems him making the finals with this club seemed to have sealed his fate though since he didn't win because the team that never should have gone that far has now been expected to get back there with less tools at his disposal.

 

[Covert Rain]

Yeah but that change had to happen after his last start (or maybe it was his second to last start?). Midway through the 4th quarter of a close game, the other team started doubling off of him on every possession. Not a single player would get within 10 feet of him, they almost panicked if they found themselves in his general vicinity. This allowed them to double just about any player with the ball. And when our players started freezing him out completely for the final several minutes, it was clear something had to be done as there was no way that wasn't going to make team scouting reports. I blame him for a lot of things, I'm not sure this decision is one of them.

Also, Shamet? Nobody had seen that coming or understood why you insert a guy who hasn't played well during crutch time. Then keep going back to him. This isn't about just one player. Look back the last 3 seasons. Monty has had really bad substitutions and adjustments. We are not just talking about this playoffs.

 

[Hoop Head]

Uh....what? Monty spent weeks prior to the playoffs losing only one game to then changed the rotation in R1 G1. Can you show me another coach that has done that? He had Okogie in the rotation going 11-1 or whatever it was seemingly setting the rotation. Can you show me another coach who plays guys that have not played well (Shamet) and keeps going to them again inserting them into the rotation even though they played like crap since coming back in the freaking playoffs?! There were a number of guys who had contributed (not great but better) than Shamet prior to the playoffs.

The rotation wasn't set and really hadn't been outside of the 3 games KD played in March before getting hurt here. Even then we were integrating a number of a players on the fly. The starting 5 changed a lot over the last 10-15 games though, which also changed the bench.

I've already addressed Shamet and how he's been used. I also understand to a certain extent why Monty played him in the Clippers series though because behind CP3 and Booker, there isn't a PG or combo guard on the roster outside of Shamet that was available. That's on James Jones. Inserting Shamet in the 4th quarter is on Monty.

 

[Hoop Head]

Also, Shamet? Nobody had seen that coming or understood why you insert a guy who hasn't played well during crutch time. Then keep going back to him. This isn't about just one player. Look back the last 3 seasons. Monty has had really bad substitutions and adjustments. We are not just talking about this playoffs.

If not just about 1 player why do you keep bringing up Shamet in every post? No one is happy with Shamet playing but it seems that's the only thing you got.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yet Monty seemingly has gone back to Okogie and Craig is having a hard time staying off the bench.

And that I have a problem with.

I agree with that. Monty hasn't been perfect. He's been average at coaching this team. He doesn't have a lot to work with and I see people blaming him for Saban Lee now not being on the playoff roster when that's not Monty's call. I'm sure he has input but he's not the GM. I'm fine with him receiving some blame but not all the blame, as it seems he's been getting. It's now to the point he's being blamed for things in the past when those things didn't get mentioned until recently, like this whole new narrative of an "epic collapse" against the Bucks in the finals. No one was saying that until around this past off-season when they wanted to strengthen their claims that Monty sucks because of the very real collapse in game 7 vs Dallas.

It's also humorous how some of the very same people calling for Monty's job have changed their tune saying this year wasn't supposed to be our year, so why is Monty being ripped shreds then for making it this far with half a team? It seems like Monty has become the scapegoat that is usually reserved for a player. 2 years ago it was CP3, last year it was Ayton, in the past it was regularly Shawn Marion. Suns fans love a scapegoat. I've taken part in blaming some of them, it's real.

It's odd that the scapegoat/whipping boy is the a coach now though since he's the best coach we've had in 20 years, easily. Arguably he's on the same level or more accomplished than D'Antoni as a Suns coach since he's made the NBA Finals. Depending on who you ask though, it seems him making the finals with this club seemed to have sealed his fate though since he didn't win because the team that never should have gone that far has now been expected to get back there with less tools at his disposal.

I wanted to like Monty but I remember him well from his earlier stint and I think he's still the same guy. Headstrong and can't always see the forest through the trees.

And I've been on him all along for forgetting about the players he has available, most notably Frank but also Holiday and Saben to name a few. For example, on more than one occasion we could have desperately used Frank and in his postgame speech, Monty just said something like "I should have played him but I forgot all about him". I'm not saying any of those guys are shining stars or anything but when CP3 was having trouble handling the ball, Holiday should have been on the court.

And I have to disagree on Saben. If that decision wasn't 100% on Monty, we have even bigger problems than Monty. The Front office does the paperwork but the playoff roster is the kind of thing that has to be on the Head Coach. Anything else makes no sense to me unless there's money involved in the decision.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I didn't intend to respond to Covert and Hoop in the same post, sorry if it confuses the issue.

 

[Covert Rain]

If not just about 1 player why do you keep bringing up Shamet in every post? No one is happy with Shamet playing but it seems that's the only thing you got.

Again huh? You must not be paying attention.

 

[Covert Rain]

And that I have a problem with.

I wanted to like Monty but I remember him well from his earlier stint and I think he's still the same guy. Headstrong and can't always see the forest through the trees.

And I've been on him all along for forgetting about the players he has available, most notably Frank but also Holiday and Saben to name a few. For example, on more than one occasion we could have desperately used Frank and in his postgame speech, Monty just said something like "I should have played him but I forgot all about him". I'm not saying any of those guys are shining stars or anything but when CP3 was having trouble handling the ball, Holiday should have been on the court.

And I have to disagree on Saben. If that decision wasn't 100% on Monty, we have even bigger problems than Monty. The Front office does the paperwork but the playoff roster is the kind of thing that has to be on the Head Coach. Anything else makes no sense to me unless there's money involved in the decision.

Perfectly reasonable post. Nobody is saying it's all on Monty. I have consistently said he is ONE of the reasons. There is some truth that he has a short deck. We all know it. This bench isn't very talented. However, it doesn't explain exactly what you pointed out and many others in your examples, and it's happened in some fashion or other the past 3 seasons.

 

[SeattleCardinal]

Will there be a Game 6?

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[BirdGangThing]

So you can't show me a team that had any post season success that entered the postseason under similar circumstances? Ok. You were the one who started that discussion, blaming Monty for not having a set rotation and trying to bring other teams into it. I was asking for examples based on your claims, nothing more or less.

Closest I could find to a player of KD's caliber joining a playoff team right before the playoffs is Michael Jordan's return (from baseball) to the Bulls in 1995 - just as the playoffs were set to take place

"At first, Jordan wanted to return in the postseason. Jackson countered with 20 games; Jordan then envisioned 10 to 15. It would eventually be 17."

The Bulls eventually entered the playoffs as the 5th Seed (Suns are obviously 4th seed this year).

From what I gather, the Bulls beat the Hornets in the first round and then met the 1st seed Orlando Magic in round 2

Bulls lost the Orlando series in 6 games, even with Jordan back in the team, and even though Jordan was familiar with much of the roster

Special Note:
Phil Jackson was not fired after the second round loss

 

[Hoop Head]

Closest I could find to a player of KD's caliber joining a playoff team right before the playoffs is Michael Jordan's return (from baseball) to the Bulls in 1995 - just as the playoffs were set to take place

"At first, Jordan wanted to return in the postseason. Jackson countered with 20 games; Jordan then envisioned 10 to 15. It would eventually be 17."

The Bulls eventually entered the playoffs as the 5th Seed (Suns are obviously 4th seed this year).

From what I gather, the Bulls beat the Hornets in the first round and then met the 1st seed Orlando Magic in round 2

Bulls lost the Orlando series in 6 games, even with Jordan back in the team, and even though Jordan was familiar with much of the roster

Special Note:
Phil Jackson was not fired after the second round loss

So now you're saying Monty is Phil Jackson?!

It's rare, extremely rare. Look for a team that lost 2 of their 5 starters towards the end of the season and I can't imagine any went farther than the second round.

 

[BirdGangThing]

So now you're saying Monty is Phil Jackson?!

It's rare, extremely rare. Look for a team that lost 2 of their 5 starters towards the end of the season and I can't imagine any went farther than the second round.

I'm saying even the great Michael Jordan (GOAT) couldn't gel quick enough with a new team to compete in the playoffs - I'm just saying teams need time to play together - that last part about Phil not being fired was just for fun lol Monty aint on Phil's level

 

[Covert Rain]

Special Note:
Phil Jackson was not fired after the second round loss

Did Phil Jackson have two historic collapses two years in a row?

 

[Covert Rain]

Will there be a Game 6?

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Damn. This sounds like a Grade 1 groin injury per that doctor’s Tweet (7-10 days).

 

[Dr. Jones]

Reminder..... We were up 2-0 last year in round two! #Hope

 

[mjb21aztd]

Still veryyyyyy sad disapointed in awful effort l n..... tod wasnt to fun

Please can suns right team just show up 1 dang gm.all i ask for lol....

Welpp go suns fri whatever occurs happens i guess ... preparing myself lol

 

[JosiahLee]

Can anyone here build a solid argument as to how we win this series?

I honestly can’t. But let’s do some wishful thinking and list some reasons that might cause the Suns to pull off an epic comeback:

1. Getting back on their home court energies the team and helps them steal the momentum of this series so that after Sunday the series is tied 2-2.

2. Booker finds his round-1 form and averages 40+ a game the rest of the series.

3. Monty plays some guys out of necessity that haven’t been getting minutes like Ish and Ross, and it actually pays dividends.

4. Ayton finds his 2021 playoff form and finds another gear to elevate his game and help shoulder the responsibility of losing a floor general like CP3.

5. Jamal Murray experiences a freak injury and misses the remainder of the playoffs.

 

[Hoop Head]

Can anyone here build a solid argument as to how we win this series?

I honestly can’t. But let’s do some wishful thinking and list some reasons that might cause the Suns to pull off an epic comeback:

1. Getting back on their home court energies the team and helps them steal the momentum of this series so that after Sunday the series is tied 2-2.

2. Booker finds his round-1 form and averages 40+ a game the rest of the series.

3. Monty plays some guys out of necessity that haven’t been getting minutes like Ish and Ross, and it actually pays dividends.

4. Ayton finds his 2021 playoff form and finds another gear to elevate his game and help shoulder the responsibility of losing a floor general like CP3.

5. Jamal Murray experiences a freak injury and misses the remainder of the playoffs.

6. Cam Payne elevates his game now that he's thrust into the starting role, reaching his averages as a starter of 15 ppg & 8 apg. Starting Payne also energizes the Suns and cause us to play more up tempo.

 

[95pro]

6. Cam Payne elevates his game now that he's thrust into the starting role, reaching his averages as a starter of 15 ppg & 8 apg. Starting Payne also energizes the Suns and cause us to play more up tempo.

No Shamet will start

 

[AzStevenCal]

No Shamet will start

Without the comma, I like it. But I suspect you meant "no, Shamet will start", which I don't like so much. Even if I did jokingly predict it yesterday before the game.

 

[GatorAZ]

I agree with that. Monty hasn't been perfect. He's been average at coaching this team. He doesn't have a lot to work with and I see people blaming him for Saban Lee now not being on the playoff roster when that's not Monty's call. I'm sure he has input but he's not the GM. I'm fine with him receiving some blame but not all the blame, as it seems he's been getting. It's now to the point he's being blamed for things in the past when those things didn't get mentioned until recently, like this whole new narrative of an "epic collapse" against the Bucks in the finals. No one was saying that until around this past off-season when they wanted to strengthen their claims that Monty sucks because of the very real collapse in game 7 vs Dallas.

It's also humorous how some of the very same people calling for Monty's job have changed their tune saying this year wasn't supposed to be our year, so why is Monty being ripped shreds then for making it this far with half a team? It seems like Monty has become the scapegoat that is usually reserved for a player. 2 years ago it was CP3, last year it was Ayton, in the past it was regularly Shawn Marion. Suns fans love a scapegoat. I've taken part in blaming some of them, it's real.

It's odd that the scapegoat/whipping boy is the a coach now though since he's the best coach we've had in 20 years, easily. Arguably he's on the same level or more accomplished than D'Antoni as a Suns coach since he's made the NBA Finals. Depending on who you ask though, it seems him making the finals with this club seemed to have sealed his fate though since he didn't win because the team that never should have gone that far has now been expected to get back there with less tools at his disposal.

Monty wasn’t going up against dynasties like D’Antoni was so I’m not using one very lucky finals run to determine that race.

 

[Covert Rain]

No Shamet will start

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[SirStefan32]

Can anyone here build a solid argument as to how we win this series?

I honestly can’t. But let’s do some wishful thinking and list some reasons that might cause the Suns to pull off an epic comeback:

1. Getting back on their home court energies the team and helps them steal the momentum of this series so that after Sunday the series is tied 2-2.

2. Booker finds his round-1 form and averages 40+ a game the rest of the series.

3. Monty plays some guys out of necessity that haven’t been getting minutes like Ish and Ross, and it actually pays dividends.

4. Ayton finds his 2021 playoff form and finds another gear to elevate his game and help shoulder the responsibility of losing a floor general like CP3.

5. Jamal Murray experiences a freak injury and misses the remainder of the playoffs.

I can't. There might be a crazy scenario where KD goes crazy, as does Booker, and couple of bench guys get hot, but chances of that are only slightly better than me being the starting point guard for the Suns next year.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I can't. There might be a crazy scenario where KD goes crazy, as does Booker, and couple of bench guys get hot, but chances of that are only slightly better than me being the starting point guard for the Suns next year.

That’s the sole case to build… that KD and Book average a combined 70+ points per game the rest of the way. And even then it’s a stretch as I can find another 30+ points from any other combination of players.
Possible? Yea… But so is me winning Powerball.