Playoffs: Suns @ Nuggets Tuesday game thread 5-9-2023 - Game 5

[Covert Rain]

Acting like an injury plagued star making $50m+ a year will have high value at 37 years old is hilarious. Being leery of our future riding on him or his trade value in 2 years is common sense. Literally no one that old has brought back half of what we paid for him.

Thinking the Suns are the only team in the entire league willing to pay big for Durant is even funnier.

 

[Mainstreet]

When did I say that? The only thing I recall saying is that after the season there might have been a bigger bidding war depending on the outcome of the playoffs or where teams are with salary. That was also before the CBA announcement.

This was my recollection. The new CBA adds a new wrinkle which make it even harder.

 

[Covert Rain]

This was my recollection. The new CBA adds a new wrinkle which make it even harder.

The above was my opinion which is different than what you said and unless you see the future nobody had seen the apron thing coming.

 

[Hoop Head]

Thinking the Suns are the only team in the entire league willing to pay big for Durant is even funnier.

Except teams wouldn't just be paying his salary but giving up assets for him as well, which isn't likely to happen. Especially considering the new CBA how salaries can not be aggregated to equal 1 KD if they're already tax payers. So try again.

As far as no one seeing the new CBA coming, GM's and executives should have. Which is why they shouldn't have pushed for through the deal when they did because odds of competing this year were slim at best anyways.

 

[Chaplin]

If we were willing to take on a ton of salary in the Durant trade then the idea that Cam Johnson's extension was a major obstacle is nonsense.

That's a pretty simplistic way of looking at the cap.

 

[Covert Rain]

Except teams wouldn't just be paying his salary but giving up assets for him as well, which isn't likely to happen. Especially considering the new CBA how salaries can not be aggregated to equal 1 KD if they're already tax payers. So try again.

As far as no one seeing the new CBA coming, GM's and executives should have. Which is why they shouldn't have pushed for through the deal when they did because odds of competing this year were slim at best anyways.

There are about 50 proposals from each side that never come to fruition from both sides. There is no way to know if that was going to be accepted. Plus, Ishbia even said he didn’t touch the business side of things at all until the sale was completed.

In terms of assets how could you possibly know what every team is is not willing to give up. Try again.

 

[Hoop Head]

There are about 50 proposals from each side that never come to fruition from both sides. There is no way to know if that was going to be accepted. Plus, Ishbia even said he didn’t touch the business side of things at all until the sale was completed.

In terms of assets how could you possibly know what every team is is not willing to give up. Try again.

I know that the Suns won't get the greatest haul in NBA history for KD in 2 years, which is what half of what we gave up would be. No team has ever paid that much for a 37 year oft-injured star. So I feel pretty safe making the claim I did. You're banking on the opposite and want me to try again? That's rich.

 

[Covert Rain]

I know that the Suns won't get the greatest haul in NBA history for KD in 2 years, which is what half of what we gave up would be. No team has ever paid that much for a 37 year oft-injured star. So I feel pretty safe making the claim I did. You're banking on the opposite and want me to try again? That's rich.

Who thinks we would get the greatest haul in NBA history in 2 years? So let me get the staring you want to hang your hat on something nobody said or thinks to try and make a point?

Now THAT is rich!

 

[Phrazbit]

That's a pretty simplistic way of looking at the cap.

I don't think you understand how the cap works in this situation.

We would have been over the threshold either way but STILL with less in salary than the Suns are currently projected to pay.

Your idea that we would have let him walk is complete nonsense.

 

[Mainstreet]

There are about 50 proposals from each side that never come to fruition from both sides. There is no way to know if that was going to be accepted. Plus, Ishbia even said he didn’t touch the business side of things at all until the sale was completed.

In terms of assets how could you possibly know what every team is is not willing to give up. Try again.

Mat Ishbia helped broker the trade for Kevin Durant.

See links below.

https://www.si.com/nba/2023/02/21/mat-ishbia-suns-mercury-owner-interview

Suns owner Mat Ishbia on Kevin Durant trade: 'I don't look at it like a risk'

New Phoenix Suns owner Mat Ishbia is excited, not worried, about the grand expectations after the Kevin Durant trade.

arizonasports.com

 

[Hoop Head]

Who thinks we would get the greatest haul in NBA history in 2 years? So let me get the staring you want to hang your hat on something nobody said or thinks to try and make a point?

Now THAT is rich!

I really like how you continue shifting goalposts. If I haven't made myself clear, I'll spell it out. We won't get 1 up and coming player on a good contract and 2 more 1st round picks for KD when he's 37, which approximately half of what we gave up. You've said there will be teams hungry for a title though and they'll be willing to pay a premium for KD at 37 years old. No team has ever received that sort of return for a player that old, which is why I said it'd be the best haul in NBA history. So please tell me how I'm wrong.

 

[Covert Rain]

Mat Ishbia helped broker the trade for Kevin Durant.

See links below.

https://www.si.com/nba/2023/02/21/mat-ishbia-suns-mercury-owner-interview

Suns owner Mat Ishbia on Kevin Durant trade: 'I don't look at it like a risk'

New Phoenix Suns owner Mat Ishbia is excited, not worried, about the grand expectations after the Kevin Durant trade.

arizonasports.com

You would expect he would be involved in that but that’s a far cry from running day to day operations and being involved in every aspect of the team. I will find the comments but he said he was going to leave the details to the front office. He said he is not moving here to run the day to day.

 

[Covert Rain]

I really like how you continue shifting goalposts. If I haven't made myself clear, I'll spell it out. We won't get 1 up and coming player on a good contract and 2 more 1st round picks for KD when he's 37, which approximately half of what we gave up. You've said there will be teams hungry for a title though and they'll be willing to pay a premium for KD at 37 years old. No team has ever received that sort of return for a player that old, which is why I said it'd be the best haul in NBA history. So please tell me how I'm wrong.

You literally said something nobody said which is the definition of shifting the goal post but I digress. I said that we can get something for KD because there will be teams hungry for a title. Unlike you I am not pretending to know what we can get. So much plays into that. So, let me be clear so you don’t continue to make stuff up that is not being said. As long as his numbers don’t cave teams will be happy to take almost 30 PPG. For what? Not sure. Saying other wise is ludicrous. Naturally all bets are off if he is hurt or his game goes completely south. Nobody suggested we are getting the same haul we sent out. NOBODY.

 

[Hoop Head]

You literally said something nobody said which is the definition of shifting the goal post but I digress. I said that we can get something for KD because there will be teams hungry for a title. Unlike you I am not pretending to know what we can get. So much plays into that. So, let me be clear so you don’t continue to make stuff up that is not being said. As long as his numbers don’t cave teams will be happy to take almost 30 PPG. For what? Not sure. Saying other wise is ludicrous. Naturally all bets are off if he is hurt or his game goes completely south. Nobody suggested we are getting the same haul we sent out. NOBODY.

You said someone would pay "big" and I assigned half of what we traded for him as "big", which I believe is fair since that's still a relatively "big" haul. I also explained how teams are limited in what they could offer in a deal since tax paying teams can't combine smaller salaries to equal KD's in a trade so any sort of return we could get would be limited to bad contracts, basically. That doesn't sound like someone offering a big return, as you claimed. Now you want to quibble over what I believe big is, fine. No one has paid positive value for an aging superstar at the end of their career, which is part of why the Suns couldn't just move CP3 for value. He's the same age KD will be after 2 more seasons, give or take a few months, and has durability issues as well, like KD. Old stars aren't moved for big hauls, as you claim will be possible, especially given the new restrictions to the CBA. For it to happen in 2 years would be the first time it has happened, unless someone does it between now and then, so we're stuck in this spot hitching our wagon to an aging KD. Let's hope Booker is ok with spending the beginning of his prime years with 2 over the hill co-stars for help because there's no quick fix here unless we can dup some team into paying a kings ransom for Ayton.

 

[Covert Rain]

You said someone would pay "big" and I assigned half of what we traded for him as "big", which I believe is fair since that's still a relatively "big" haul. I also explained how teams are limited in what they could offer in a deal since tax paying teams can't combine smaller salaries to equal KD's in a trade so any sort of return we could get would be limited to bad contracts, basically. That doesn't sound like someone offering a big return, as you claimed. Now you want to quibble over what I believe big is, fine. No one has paid positive value for an aging superstar at the end of their career, which is part of why the Suns couldn't just move CP3 for value. He's the same age KD will be after 2 more seasons, give or take a few months, and has durability issues as well, like KD. Old stars aren't moved for big hauls, as you claim will be possible, especially given the new restrictions to the CBA. For it to happen in 2 years would be the first time it has happened, unless someone does it between now and then, so we're stuck in this spot hitching our wagon to an aging KD. Let's hope Booker is ok with spending the beginning of his prime years with 2 over the hill co-stars for help because there's no quick fix here unless we can dup some team into paying a kings ransom for Ayton.

I said there likely would have been a bidding war for Durant If he had not demanded to be traded to Phoenix. I stand by that. After the season was over teams start tearing things apart. Some teams start shedding salary. Plenty of 3 team trade scenarios. I am saying there are so many scenario it’s impossible to tell what the market would have bared out for Durant. We gave up a ton. Never denied that. IMO it would have still been a haul. There are not a ton of comparisons for guys like Durant because teams rarely trade guys of his caliber when they have something left.

I am with you in that if I had it my way, we would have traded for a young super star to play along with Booker. Those guys are never traded though in their prime.

I am sure Book would be the first to say he would rather get a shot with two future HOF then stand pat and just be competitive during his prime years.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So are you willing to blow it up after two seasons with Durant? That 4 year salary stays on the books.

And do you still think Durant will have more trade value this summer?

The Suns lost a ton of talent and draft picks. It takes years to start over.

If they decided to blow it up they obviously wouldn’t recoup what they paid, but there’s always a team looking for that talented guy to push them over the top. Think the rockets acquiring Barkley and pippen back in the day. We could likely still get something for him. Maybe a younger player and a pick or two firsts.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Just as a Cam Johnson extension was going to happen.

Because it got done the first time? Oh wait…

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think you are underestimating the number of teams wanting a title.

We have a lot of fans that are happy with 50 and fade. It’s tough for them to understand that NBA teams will willing push all their chips in at the chance at a title. The only teams that can do that and maintain long term success contemporaneously are those that drafted incredibly well. That is not us. If Ayton had been a legit #1 with his play it would’ve been us. Heck, we would have beaten the bucks for the championship.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If KD guaranteed a title, why are we trading him?

No one has ever used that word.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I hope so. I want to see the Suns trade Durant this summer and get more in return than they gave up.

If it happens, I want to be first in line to congratulate you.

It won’t be this summer. They’ve already seen the value he has a) on Booker; b) to the team (if this team were Booker and the rest of the roster they would be among the worst teams in the nba, instead they are two wins from the WCFs); and c) they want to give a full chance to the KD experiment (not just 20 games acquired at end of season post injury). Trading him this summer would be about the dumbest reactionary action they could take.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If we were willing to take on a ton of salary in the Durant trade then the idea that Cam Johnson's extension was a major obstacle is nonsense.

Except for the evidence of last season. And cam Johnson being nowhere near KDs class of player.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I thought you said Durant would have more trade value this summer if the Suns had waited, so that was your reasoning why they needed to make the trade now.

I think we would’ve had more competition. The Celtics likely fall short this year. The griz fell short. Looks like the warriors could fall short, the mavs might’ve been in play.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Acting like an injury plagued star making $50m+ a year will have high value at 37 years old is hilarious. Being leery of our future riding on him or his trade value in 2 years is common sense. Literally no one that old has brought back half of what we paid for him.

Man you like the cherry pick to make bad arguments sometime. No one his age that was averaging his numbers had ever been traded period.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Except teams wouldn't just be paying his salary but giving up assets for him as well, which isn't likely to happen. Especially considering the new CBA how salaries can not be aggregated to equal 1 KD if they're already tax payers. So try again.

As far as no one seeing the new CBA coming, GM's and executives should have. Which is why they shouldn't have pushed for through the deal when they did because odds of competing this year were slim at best anyways.

I’d like for you to find any post on ASFN predicting anything close to the new CBA.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If they decided to blow it up they obviously wouldn’t recoup what they paid, but there’s always a team looking for that talented guy to push them over the top. Think the rockets acquiring Barkley and pippen back in the day. We could likely still get something for him. Maybe a younger player and a pick or two firsts.

I know Barkley was just an example but to me his case points out one of the problems we're going to be facing. Durant, if he was playing at a superstar level, at almost 50 Million per would still be a negative value contract and so far, we've yet to see quite that level from him. But even assuming it's on the horizon he will be a tough sell for other teams looking to add their last piece given the cap and the new rules.

Barkley, back then was in decline, but he was only making about 18% of the Cap whereas KD will be making almost 36% of ours. Plus Barkley was 33 when he played his first game for Houston and KD will be 35 before he plays his next regular season game.

Edit: Corrected Barkley's age, had it at 32 previously.