Please Stop Complaining About Small Ball...

[FrustratedSON]

Unless you have a better solution, or have reason to believe Minnesota is interested in trading Kevin Garnett for Joe Johnson.

WE ARE A SMALL TEAM. FACE FACTS. YOU PLAY WITH WHAT YOU'VE GOT.

 

[devilalum]

Originally posted by FrustratedSON
Unless you have a better solution, or have reason to believe Minnesota is interested in trading Kevin Garnett for Joe Johnson.

WE ARE A SMALL TEAM. FACE FACTS. YOU PLAY WITH WHAT YOU'VE GOT.

I think we should hold out for Tim Duncan.

 

[Chaplin]

I think we have too many white people on this team.

The coaches wear funny ties.

The floor is way too shiny.

Better?

 

[George O'Brien]

I get frustrated with games like against the Hornets when the Suns get killed on the boards, but unless we get more big guys who can stay out of foul trouble we're sunk.

Prior to the Hornets game, I predicted that PJ Brown would have trouble defending against Shawn Marion. Shawn scored 31 points and picked up 7 rebounds. Brown scored 13 points and had four rebounds.

Unfortunately, Brown's impact had more to do with blocking out because JAMAAL MAGLOIRE had 14 rebounds. The Hornets took 12 offensive rebounds and turned them into 19 second chance points.

If the Suns are going to play small ball, then everyone is going to have to go to the defensive boards. I'm not sure most of the Suns players are really willing to deal with the physical stuff inside, but that is the way the NBA is played.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
I get frustrated with games like against the Hornets when the Suns get killed on the boards, but unless we get more big guys who can stay out of foul trouble we're sunk.

Prior to the Hornets game, I predicted that PJ Brown would have trouble defending against Shawn Marion. Shawn scored 31 points and picked up 7 rebounds. Brown scored 13 points and had four rebounds.

Unfortunately, Brown's impact had more to do with blocking out because JAMAAL MAGLOIRE had 14 rebounds. The Hornets took 12 offensive rebounds and turned them into 19 second chance points.

If the Suns are going to play small ball, then everyone is going to have to go to the defensive boards. I'm not sure most of the Suns players are really willing to deal with the physical stuff inside, but that is the way the NBA is played.

I need to start reporting these games even when I watch them live. I thought two thirds of the Hornets' offensive rebounds were right over smaller Phoenix Suns players. White in particular kept getting pushed too far under the basket. After the first five minutes or so I was quite disappointed with his play. I also thought Scott Williams, if he was really available, should have seen some time at power forward and Center tonight.

Joe Mama

 

[newfan101]

I wasn't impressed with White at all. I haven't been since his first game in a Suns uniform. He has bulk, but no athletism, bad hands, and is undersized. I noticed almost a half dozen times Hornets quicker, taller big men grab rebounds over him. I hate to say it, but I think he's almost as useless as Jake in most situations. At least Jake had height. There was a reason he was the 3rd string center on a bad Washington team.

Of the three scenarios, I would still rather have Brevin Knights expiring contract to White or Jake and Bo, but that's in the past.

 

[George O'Brien]

I did not watch the game. His box score showed 5 rebounds in 21 minutes, which is OK but nothing to get excited about.

I think the whole question is whether the Suns can get White to lose weight and become more mobile. I think it would help his game dramatically.

I suspect the Suns management know that. Their problem with Big Jake was that he went into the Rocky Mountain Review in the best condition of his career and he was still terribly slow.

Maybe they think they can get White to improve his conditioning. It did not work with O. Miller, but maybe this time it will.

 

[newfan101]

BTW, on a side note, while White did nothing for me, I was totally impressed with PJ Brown. I think he may be the most underrated big man in the league. Great defense, great position rebounder, sets great picks, is mobile and athletic, has good hands, and is tough.

The Hornets have built their team the best way you can, in my opinion, without having a superstar big man. Two quality mobile big men, a bunch of great shooters, and a penetrating point guard. If the Suns could get a PJ Brown type big man to play with Amare, and shooters to spread out the floor, they might look very similar to that Hornets team, only younger. That would be fine with me.

 

[Ryanwb]

Can one keep complaining if he has small balls???

 

[FrustratedSON]

You talking to me? .... Cause i'm only the one here on at the moment... You talking to me?

edit (oops Joe Mama and 3rdside are here)

Chap, sarcasm doesn't get away from the fact that we are a SMALL TEAM...So why do people complain when we play small ball. What else can we do? We simply don't have the capacity to play big... whilise Amare and Zarko are out, and even then we're small.

 

[George O'Brien]

PJ Brown was one of the more sought after big men this summer, but New Orleans came through with a four year $8 million contract for a guy that does not score very much.

If you want to watch a feeding frenzy, Jamaal Magloire will be a free agent next summer. Anyone who thinks they can get HIM for a mid range cap exemption is crazy.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

everyone's expectations for white are too much. he is what he is, a large, adequate rebounding wide body. he was brought here to be a good compliment to amare, and that's what he is. he gets puts back and easy garbage buckets when all attention is focused on amare, steph and marion. when there are only two people on the floor to be aware of jahidi can't get lost in the mix as easily. he's no superstar, he is complimentary. and when the stars are either gone or not performing, his role becomes subsumed.

 

[Wally]

Is this as good as it gets? Jack Nicholsen (sp?), I mean D'Antoni might have to try someting different. This group of individuals suck when it come to playing as a team with a desire to win. The other night when FJ put in Trybanski and Archiibald, they at least acted like they wanted to make something happen. Why do we have to suck with smallball when we can suck with these big guys who are wearing holes in the seat of their shorts. This comes back to why did we bother taking Trybanski off the IL. Better yet, just let them go home - they can probably do some yard work and feel better about accomplishing something. I say, if we're going to be this bad, lets see all the players get a chance to either suck or play with the desire to win.

Gotta go, it's halftime and the Nuggets are ahead of the sixers 54 - 43.....GO NUGGETS!!!!

 

[Errntknght]

Jahidi White isn't the problem... it's our coaches - primarily the departed one, but coach D' hasn't rectified things yet. As I've said all season, give FJ plenty of guys to use at center and he'll make a mess of it - which he promptly did as soon as we had Jahidi. Starting him the moment he got off the plane was terrible coaching. What we needed was for FJ to have to rely on Jake so he'd have no course but to play him heavy minutes and encourage him.

What D'Antoni needs to do is install Jake as the starting center, give him lots of love and make sure he has his priorities right on the floor - defend the other teams center, defend the paint, block out on rebounds, grab rebounds, make the outlet pass promptly, run the floor hard, set solid picks, keep flushing the ball with two hands every chance that presents itself and practice his free throws. Jake can do all that reasonably well now and will improve with PT as long as he stays focussed. Generally, people stay focussed better if they are certain what their job is and I don't see any reason Jake wouldn't be like everyone else.

Forget FJ's nonsense about Jake being the energy guy off the bench - we need a stable center position more than that. Besides which, we can use energy to start the game - setting a good tone at the beginning is as important as anything.

Sure, Jake isn't everything you could wish for in a center but he's the right age for this team, he's not injury prone, he works hard and seems to be coachable. If he stays focussed and keeps working on his fundamentals I think he's on odds on favorite to become a middle rank center. For the Suns, that's a big step forward! If he developes a reliable 15 foot jumper and some cunning he might make it to the upper middle ranks.

On a related note, has anyone watched Brad Miller with the Kings... the guy has really blossomed. (At least I think it's a blossoming as I didn't see him play much before he came west.) If he keeps it up he'll be easily worth what Sac is paying him. And what a fit he would have been with the Suns. What is my point - the Sacramento Kings have been no luckier than the Suns getting draft rights to dominating centers but in the last eight years or so they've traded for Miller and Vlade - both better than any center the Suns have ever had.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by Errntknght

On a related note, has anyone watched Brad Miller with the Kings... the guy has really blossomed. (At least I think it's a blossoming as I didn't see him play much before he came west.) If he keeps it up he'll be easily worth what Sac is paying him. And what a fit he would have been with the Suns. What is my point - the Sacramento Kings have been no luckier than the Suns getting draft rights to dominating centers but in the last eight years or so they've traded for Miller and Vlade - both better than any center the Suns have ever had.

we had no shot at vlade 'cuz he wanted to live in cali for his wife's acting career. he's stated it time and time again.

and just what would you have proposed trading to pick up brad miller?

easy to complain, not as easy to provide alternatives.

 

[KingLouieLouie]

Several teams have won in the past while relying on "Small Ball."
Take the Pistons of the "Bad Boy" era who had a solid 3-guard rotation with Isiah, Joe Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson. True they did benefit from Dennis Rodman and Bill Laimbeer (who wasnt a prototypical center) and James Edwards by then was over-the-hill.... So with Marion, Marbury, and Johnson/Hardaway, that is comparable to the Pistons in that era......

I just wont pass/reserve any judgment until Amare and Zarko are healthy and back in full force....

 

[Billythekid]

Sorry dude, but no f%&king way is Marbury, Marion and Penny/JJ comparable to the Piston trio.

Dumars was one of the greatest defenders of all time and one of the best shooters of recent time. Isiah was also a great defender +scorer.

 

[Errntknght]

"we had no shot at vlade 'cuz he wanted to live in cali for his wife's acting career. he's stated it time and time again.

and just what would you have proposed trading to pick up brad miller?

easy to complain, not as easy to provide alternatives."


I didn't mean that we somehow should have grabbed Vlade and Millier instead of Sac. But, many people love to excuse our never getting a good center by the fact that we've never had the chance to draft one. It's true we haven't had a plethora of draft opportunities but Sacramento's example shows that you can trade for or sign them if you know what you're doing and work at it. When it comes to centers, I believe that the lame results our management has gotten over decades is a strong indication they don't know a whole lot or don't work hard at it. It ain't all the "curse of the coin flip"!

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I don't personally remember this, but someone on the board talked about a trade that supposedly was set up for us to get Deke when he was in his prime. However the league rejected it (the original poster didn't say why)



Personally, I didn't expect Miller to flourish the way he has, and thought he was very overpaid when they got him. It will be interesting to see how he meshes with Webber.

 

[Errntknght]

"Several teams have won in the past while relying on "Small Ball."
Take the Pistons of the "Bad Boy" era who had a solid 3-guard rotation with Isiah, Joe Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson. True they did benefit from Dennis Rodman and Bill Laimbeer (who wasnt a prototypical center) and James Edwards by then was over-the-hill.... "

The Pistons had a 3 guard rotation - they didn't play all three at once! They also had John Salley and Ricky Mahorn bolstering their front court - and playing significant minutes. They were called the 'Bad Boys' for their bruising play in the paint. They did run some but they were not playing small ball by any means.

 

[cly2tw]

Ostertag is turning out to be a good center now! Why can't we wait for Big Jake's development similarly? I guess the reason is we don't have real coach like Sloan.

 

[George O'Brien]

Ostertag is turning out to be a good center now! Why can't we wait for Big Jake's development similarly? I guess the reason is we don't have real coach like Sloan.

There is a good reason why Sloan is not available. Most available coaches are available for a reason.

As for Ostertag, this is his 9th season. For his career, he averaged only 20 minutes a game and 5.4 rpg. This year he is grabbing 9.1 in over 30 minutes. In looking over his career stats, they were never awful and never outstanding. This year he is scoring 7.4 ppg with a percentage of 43.4%

With Big Jake, one issue was whether the Suns wanted to re-sign him next summer. My impression was "no".

I checked the Memphis web site. He played only 5 minutes against the Nets on Saturday and is averaging only 14 minutes a game in just 10 of the 21 games they played.

 

[KingLouieLouie]

Originally posted by Billythekid
Sorry dude, but no f%&king way is Marbury, Marion and Penny/JJ comparable to the Piston trio.

Dumars was one of the greatest defenders of all time and one of the best shooters of recent time. Isiah was also a great defender +scorer.

I should have phrased that differently.... To me they have the potential to develop into that over-time......Just they need the right coaching....Wouldnt Chuck Daily be ideal for the Suns, but don't believe he'll ever return back into coaching.....

The Pistons had a 3 guard rotation - they didn't play all three at once! They also had John Salley and Ricky Mahorn bolstering their front court - and playing significant minutes. They were called the 'Bad Boys' for their bruising play in the paint.
They did run some but they were not playing small ball by any means.

Rick Mahorn was only a member of the Pistons 1st championship team (when he was drafted by the Timberwolves in the Expansion draft and then dealt to Philly), so that was essentially when the "BadBoy Era" ended......

The Pistons did use 3 guard sets when they had Adrian Dantley and subsequently Mark Aguirre playing in the same line-up with Isiah and Dumars.... Salley just was used in role situations (he was commonly referred as the "X" Factor).....

The fact is they didnt have a "legit" center during that time...It seems that most teams who won the NBA Finals in the East lacked that true center, except Dr. J, Robert Parrish, and Bill Cartwright.....

 

[Errntknght]

"The Pistons did use 3 guard sets when they had Adrian Dantley and subsequently Mark Aguirre playing in the same line-up with Isiah and Dumars.... "

Adrian Dantley and Mark Aquirre were both unquestionably small forwards. Neither one was tall for that position but they were both wide bodies and made good use of the fact. Aquirre could shoot from outside but he made his living banging guys around in the low post with that very substantial behind of his. Kelly Tripuka was the most guard like of their small forwards in that era.

 

[George O'Brien]

The Bad Boy Pistons were unusual. What made Chuck Daly so important to the evolution of the NBA was that he figured out that the refs would not call games as tightly as they would regular season games. So he put together a team which had unathletic physical players inside:

Edwards
Lambier
Mahorn

Plus Salley and Rodman (back when he played defense and not just rebound). Lambier could shoot from the outside and Salley had some offensive skills, but mostly these guys played physical defense (ie they fouled all the time).

In a few years, eveyone in the east copied this style. Chicago played very physical defense, the Knicks under Riley were very physical, and the game became a wrestling match.

I admit my bias, I hate what Chuck Daly did to the NBA (and the NBA management let it happen). I would rather return to the days when mugging someone was called a foul. (I'd like it if they would call the three second violations, palming, and charging when a player knocks a guy down when backing up).