Position by position evaluation

[Covert Rain]

Steeldog loves his "gives up more points from the point guard position" stat, but of course he ignores where most of those PG points come from. Right at the basket. Any perimeter defender has to rely on the guys behind him. That stat Steeldog brings up tells me more than anything, Nash had NO help from his bigs behind him.

Oh come on Chap. Are you saying that 20 teams or so in the NBA had better quality big men the the Suns sitting behind their PG? Also, since when to PG come right from the basket? Most PG are setting up plays at the top of the key for their guys.

Come on.

Watch the games, Nash's individual man-to-man defense is not good at all, but his team d is solid. Not spectacular, but good. And don't forget, the number of charges the guy takes are amazing. Do you think it's blind luck that he's at the right place at the right time?

Now I know we must be watching a different player. Nash hardly comes to the rescue when it comes to "help defending". In fact, it's just the opposite, Nash's team mates most of the time were helping him.

And I know you're going to accuse me of being a homer, but I admit freely that Nash is a poor perimeter defender. But his genius on offense overshadows that. If it didn't, he wouldn't be a starter, let alone in the NBA in the first place. Any GM would love to have him. Any one of them.

You know as well as I do that if your a flashy offensive guy in the NBA teams are going to line up at your door. Nash wasn't exactly a house hold name either until D'Antoni's system made basketball fun again during a time when the NBA was struggling with it's image of thug ball.

Ofcourse any GM would love to have him. However, ask just about any coach in the NBA if they think they can survive with Nash at the helm without alot of defense around him. You might get a different answer.

I have said this before. I thought the difference in the years in which we were close was the lack of defense. I consider Nash the biggest culprit on the team and always have. If we had Chris Paul, Chancey Billups on those same teams.....the Suns were better. It might not be the popular thing to say but I believe it.

 

[Gaddabout]

Oh come on Chap. Are you saying that 20 teams or so in the NBA had better quality big men the the Suns sitting behind their PG?

Defensively? Oh my, yes. Amare is good for a weakside block, but he doesn't stand anyone up one-on-one. Teaming Nash with Shaq to guard the pick-and-roll was comical. Shaq is worse than Nash defending the pick/roll.

A basketball team's defense is only as good as it it's center middle. Put real defender at the 5 and no one's talking about Nash's defense -- there's no incentive to take him off the dribble.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Defensively? Oh my, yes. Amare is good for a weakside block, but he doesn't stand anyone up one-on-one. Teaming Nash with Shaq to guard the pick-and-roll was comical. Shaq is worse than Nash defending the pick/roll.

A basketball team's defense is only as good as it it's center middle. Put real defender at the 5 and no one's talking about Nash's defense -- there's no incentive to take him off the dribble.

It takes both the pg and the middle for a good defensive team. If all you have is a good interior defender, little guys will get them in foul trouble in no time. If it is just a good perimeter defender, well, no perimeter defender is good enough to keep the better pg's out of the middle (or from scoring) more than say, 50% of the time.

 

[Gaddabout]

It takes both the pg and the middle for a good defensive team. If all you have is a good interior defender, little guys will get them in foul trouble in no time. If it is just a good perimeter defender, well, no perimeter defender is good enough to keep the better pg's out of the middle (or from scoring) more than say, 50% of the time.

Show me all the starting PGs who are both good perimeter defenders and also adequately run an offense. I can count two. After that, the defenders I can find are either hurting their team (even more) with their inability to get other people involved OR their offensive scheme is designed to hide them.

Be careful what you ask for.

 

[Covert Rain]

It takes both the pg and the middle for a good defensive team. If all you have is a good interior defender, little guys will get them in foul trouble in no time. If it is just a good perimeter defender, well, no perimeter defender is good enough to keep the better pg's out of the middle (or from scoring) more than say, 50% of the time.

Nailed it.

A basketball team's defense is only as good as it it's center middle. Put real defender at the 5 and no one's talking about Nash's defense -- there's no incentive to take him off the dribble.

I don't care if you have the best defender sitting back there in the middle. If you have a PG who can't keep anybody in the front of him, that "great" middle uses up the fouls in no time. Not to mention forces your team into bad defensive rotations which was 10 times more of a problem then the Suns pick and roll defense.

I guarantee the Suns gave up more points to bad defensive rotations then they did guys coming off the pick and roll. Hell most team in the NBA can't even run a good effective pick and roll. There are probably 4 to 5 teams in the entire NBA that can do it effectively on a consistant basis.

This teams lack of pick and roll defense was grossly overexaggeratted. Prior to having Shaq the Suns were never critisized for their pick and roll defense yet the Suns had one of the worst interior paint defenses in the entire NBA pre-Shaq. At least with Shaq they had an interior presense and an all-star center. Nash proved that as long as he is at the helm, have a paint presence doesn't matter. If anything the failed Shaq experiment proved that as long as Nash is here, this team will never be good defensively.

 

[Gaddabout]

Prior to having Shaq the Suns were never critisized for their pick and roll defense yet the Suns had one of the worst interior paint defenses in the entire NBA pre-Shaq.

So you weren't paying attention during the D'Antoni years? The Suns' awful pick-and-roll defense has been the subject of jokes for the entire decade. Stoudemire was especially brutalized. You can stick or you can switch, but your big man has to do one or the other well.

 

[Covert Rain]

So you weren't paying attention during the D'Antoni years? The Suns' awful pick-and-roll defense has been the subject of jokes for the entire decade. Stoudemire was especially brutalized. You can stick or you can switch, but your big man has to do one or the other well.

I heard the Suns being brutalized for defense as a whole during the D'Antoni era. People were not singling out pick and roll defense like they did when Shaq got here which is ridiculous. The thing most talked about was lack of interior toughness and no paint play.

Shaq was a horrible pick and roll player in LA and again in Miami. Those teams won titles DESPITE Shaq's lack of pick and roll ability. Why? Because pick and roll defense doesn't make or break your entire defensive scheme. Because pick and roll plays don't account for a very high number of points in an overall game.

The big difference between Shaq and Nash is that you can win titles despite Shaq's pick and roll deficiencies if surrounded with a good enough defensive team. You cannot win a title despite Nash's overall defensive deficiencies unless you are deep defensively positions 2 through 5. That's never going to happen IMO. The only shot Nash has at winning a title IMO would be to play on a good defensive team like the Celtics who could use an offensive punch but are deep enough that they wouldn't be torn apart by Nash's lack of defensive skills.

 

[mojorizen7]

I heard the Suns brutalized for defense as a whole during the D'Antoni era. People were not singling out pick and roll defense like they did when Shaq got here which is ridiculous. The thing most talked about was lack of interior toughness and no paint play.

Shaq was a horrible pick and roll player in LA and again in Miami. Those teams won titles DESPITE Shaq's lack of pick and roll ability. Why? Because pick and roll defense doesn't make or break your entire defensive scheme. Because pick and roll plays don't account for a very high number of points in an overall game.

The big difference between Shaq and Nash is that you can win titles despite Shaq's pick and roll deficiencies if surrounded with a good enough defensive team. You cannot win a title despite Nash's overall defensive deficiencies unless your a deep defensively positions 2 through 5. That's never going to happen IMO. The only shot Nash has at winning a title IMO would be to play on a good defensive team like the Celtics who could use an offensive punch but are deep enough that they wouldn't be torn apart by Nash's lack of defensive skills.

+1
There hasn't been one single aspect of the SUNS defensively thats been decent or even satisfactory over the past 5 seasons other than.....
Nash & Bell gave up their bodies and took alot of charges....

You must be registered for see images

...yay lets give 'em each a Ladmo bag.

Guards that are good perimeter defenders that can distribute and score...?
C.Paul
D.Williams
C. Billups
R.Rondo
T.Parker
D.Harris
J.Kidd
Not all these guys had/have a defensive rock playing the 5 behind them,but they did/do have other quality defenders around them,or a system that emphasized "D" over jumpshots.

Nash is the better shooter and passer over all these guys...but that isn't enough anymore IMO.

Like Steeldog said, the p&r defense isn't the lone reason our "D" has been crap. The help defense has been bad,the double teaming has been bad,the man on man has been bad,the zone has been bad,the transition D has been bad....you name it.
It's not all on Nash but it starts with Nash, the blame can also fall on Amare....Barbosa,Diaw,JRich,Shaq,Lopez,Banks,and any other poor defenders that have been here..... and the system thats been a fixture here for years.
Ugghh

 

[JCSunsfan]

+1
There hasn't been one single aspect of the SUNS defensively thats been decent or even satisfactory over the past 5 seasons other than.....
Nash & Bell gave up their bodies and took alot of charges....

You must be registered for see images

...yay lets give 'em each a Ladmo bag.

Guards that are good perimeter defenders that can distribute and score...?
C.Paul
D.Williams
C. Billups
R.Rondo
T.Parker
D.Harris
J.Kidd
Not all these guys had/have a defensive rock playing the 5 behind them,but they did/do have other quality defenders around them,or a system that emphasized "D" over jumpshots.

Nash is the better shooter and passer over all these guys...but that isn't enough anymore IMO.

Like Steeldog said, the p&r defense isn't the lone reason our "D" has been crap. The help defense has been bad,the double teaming has been bad,the man on man has been bad,the zone has been bad,the transition D has been bad....you name it.
It's not all on Nash but it starts with Nash, the blame can also fall on Amare....Barbosa,Diaw,JRich,Shaq,Lopez,Banks,and any other poor defenders that have been here..... and the system thats been a fixture here for years.
Ugghh

Kidd was regularly abused by smaller quicker pg's. That was one of the big complaints about him while he was here. Parker and Harris are marginally better defenders than Nash (Oh, I will hear it about that comment). Parker's redemption is that he has Duncan standing behind him.

I agree about Billups. He is great on D. But none of these holds a candle to the overall offensive output of Nash. Its not even close.

 

[mojorizen7]

Kidd was regularly abused by smaller quicker pg's. That was one of the big complaints about him while he was here. Parker and Harris are marginally better defenders than Nash (Oh, I will hear it about that comment). Parker's redemption is that he has Duncan standing behind him.

I agree about Billups. He is great on D. But none of these holds a candle to the overall offensive output of Nash. Its not even close.

-Marginally? Yeah you're gonna hear it with that comment. Again, Nash is prob the worst starting PG in the league defensively....name 5 people worse please.

-None of these guys holds a candle to Nash offensively? Come on now...I agree that Rondo cannot be mentioned yet....but i already said that Nash is the superior offensive player over all these guys. Now you're saying that these guys can't even compete offensively when compared to Nash? Overstated JC. Look at their numbers....all these PG's are very good offensively,they're just not quite as prolifically one-dimensionally awesome as Nash.

I believe my argument originally was that Nash's offensive prowess isn't enough to compensate for his horrific defense anymore in the quest for a title. These very good PG's won't kill you either way.

 

[Chaplin]

Point guard or no, superstar or no, Steve Nash is the best shooter in the NBA. That's a statistical fact. Add that to his ability to make his teammates better, and you have a superstar who deserves the title, regardless of how bad he is defensively.

 

[HooverDam]

Point guard or no, superstar or no, Steve Nash is the best shooter in the NBA. That's a statistical fact. Add that to his ability to make his teammates better, and you have a superstar who deserves the title, regardless of how bad he is defensively.

Id say he's the best all around shooter in the history of the game, just as an aside.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Point guard or no, superstar or no, Steve Nash is the best shooter in the NBA. That's a statistical fact. Add that to his ability to make his teammates better, and you have a superstar who deserves the title, regardless of how bad he is defensively.

He is also incredibly good at crunch time.

 

[Covert Rain]

I believe my argument originally was that Nash's offensive prowess isn't enough to compensate for his horrific defense anymore in the quest for a title.

Kidd was regularly abused by smaller quicker pg's. That was one of the big complaints about him while he was here. Parker and Harris are marginally better defenders than Nash (Oh, I will hear it about that comment). Parker's redemption is that he has Duncan standing behind him.

I agree about Billups. He is great on D. But none of these holds a candle to the overall offensive output of Nash. Its not even close.

Marginally?!?!?!?. Spurs ranked 5th best in the NBA at allowing opposing PG points and 10th in Opposing PG FG%. Since when is that marginally better? Even if you don't give all the credit to Parker, the Suns couldn't be more on the opposite end of the spectrum. You are talking one of the best to one of the worst.

Harris is not on the same planet as Parker IMO defensively. I have not looked up Harris's numbers or watched him play that much since he was traded so I won't argue that point.

However, if that is your definition of "marginally", then sign me up for acquiring a bunch of marginal defenders.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Marginally?!?!?!?. Spurs ranked 5th best in the NBA at allowing opposing PG points and 10th in Opposing PG FG%. Since when is that marginally better? Even if you don't give all the credit to Parker, the Suns couldn't be more on the opposite end of the spectrum. You are talking one of the best to one of the worst.

Harris is not on the same planet as Parker IMO defensively. I have not looked up Harris's numbers or watched him play that much since he was traded so I won't argue that point.

However, if that is your definition of "marginally", then sign me up for acquiring a bunch of marginal defenders. On offense, after a couple of nifty passes from Steve and Timmy D would be giggling like a little girl.

Those statistics can be quite misleading. The pace of game, and who actually defends who, makes a big difference.

Again the interior defense has a lot to do with pg scoring. Tim Duncan and company had alot to do with their ability to defend pgs.

I would contend that if you swapped Parker for Nash, the defensive numbers for each team would only change marginally. Offensively, once Timmy got a couple of passes from Nash, he would be giggling like a little girl.

 

[Covert Rain]

Those statistics can be quite misleading. The pace of game, and who actually defends who, makes a big difference.

Again the interior defense has a lot to do with pg scoring. Tim Duncan and company had alot to do with their ability to defend pgs.

I would contend that if you swapped Parker for Nash, the defensive numbers for each team would only change marginally. Offensively, once Timmy got a couple of passes from Nash, he would be giggling like a little girl.

Tim Duncan doesn't go around guarding PG's. Yes he clogs up the lane but teams pull Tim Duncan out of the paint all the time. You explanation doesn't hold much water. Also, look at the individual numbers for each player (opposing scoring).

Parker - 18.1 points Per
Nash - 22.5 points per

It doesn't seem like much of a difference on paper but it really is.

I would contend that not only would Nash make the Spurs much worse but Tim Duncan would become a league leader in fouls from the C/PF position. I would also bet you hands down that if Tim Duncan could trade Parker for Nash tomorrow he would say no. Tim is defensive minded guy and has said in several interviews that is the most important aspect of the team. You think Tim would want to put one of the worst defensive PG's in the entire NBA on his team??? I don't think so.

The Spurs don't need Nash. Because of their defense, they already score enough points to win.