Press conference tonight

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by elindholm

That's already $42.6 million, just in three players. It's speculation where the luxury tax line will be, but the Suns will have at most $15 million to work with for the entire rest of the team.

$15 million annually, to be spread among the following players:

Joe Johnson
Zarko Cabarkapa (let's be optimistic and say he becomes the starting PF/C, along Stoudemire)
sixth man, whoever it is
seventh man, whoever it is
eighth man, whoever it is
ninth man, whoever it is

and so on.

$15 million for two starters, three or four solid bench contributors, and a few insurance/third-stringers.

Good luck.

That's assuming that there is still a luxury tax in 3 years. I could have sworn that the current collective-bargaining agreement would end before then. I'm not sure the players will ever sign another agreement that includes the luxury tax.

Joe Mama

 

[arthurracoon]

Originally posted by Charles V
They also account for 50% of the team's production.

More than 50%

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm


And finally, the Suns organization is not "inept." They just have different priorities from what I might hope. I'd like them to do what they need to in order to compete for a title. They'd rather ensure 50-and-fade. It's a difference of philosophy, not competence.

From what you hope? Or what you perceive yourself as "knowing"? I understand what you're saying, but it's presumed arrogance to assume you know all there is to know about everything.

Myself, I'm not sure what they are thinking, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

What would you rather happen? Say we tell Marbury forget it--we're not giving you that kind of money. Ok, he says he'll go elsewhere. Do you ACTUALLY believe that we would get the same quality of player for that lesser amount we would be offering Marbury??

I'm sure everyone in Minnesota says the same thing. But it's not about whether these players deserve it--none deserve that much money--but it's about market value, and right now the market value on a player like Marbury is 20 million per. He might not be worth it--but that's the price you pay to keep a player of his caliber.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I'm sure everyone in Minnesota says the same thing. But it's not about whether these players deserve it--none deserve that much money--but it's about market value, and right now the market value on a player like Marbury is 20 million per. He might not be worth it--but that's the price you pay to keep a player of his caliber.

If there are actually players in the NBA worth $20 million per season in Marbury is not one of them. There isn't a team out there that would give him $20 million per season right now.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

So what do you suggest then? Are you really that surprised that we offered and he accepted a max deal?

I mean, I wonder sometimes what the point of all this is. To merely complain? To maybe hope someone with the Suns org sees this and finds out what the fans think?

Joe says he thinks Marbury doesn't deserve 20 million per. I agree. Now what?

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
So what do you suggest then? Are you really that surprised that we offered and he accepted a max deal?

I mean, I wonder sometimes what the point of all this is. To merely complain? To maybe hope someone with the Suns org sees this and finds out what the fans think?

Joe says he thinks Marbury doesn't deserve 20 million per. I agree. Now what?

Not everything on these message boards has to be praised for the organization. We come to the message board to discuss what we think about the team. I don't expect the Phoenix Suns management to come to this message board, read it, and change their minds. I expected to post my opinion and hear the opinions of other Phoenix Suns fans who might agree or disagree with me.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

Joe says he thinks Marbury doesn't deserve 20 million per. I agree. Now what?

Offer him less. It's very simple. He can't get more elsewhere. Other teams could offer him only a max deal, not an "overmax" one.

And frankly, if Marbury is the kind of player that would go into a five-year snit because the Suns offered him only $80 million instead of $100 million, I wouldn't want him around anyway. Chances are, over time, he would see that it was best for the organization -- and best for him, because it would give him a stronger supporting cast to work with.

I think Marbury is a good player, and I've always thought that he was potentially a key to the Suns building a title contender. But it wouldn't be the end of the world if he left. You can get virtually any player you want, if you're offering that kind of money. Heck, at today's prices, $20 million would get you both Sam Cassell and Kobe Bryant, with a little money left over!

Marbury is better than, let's say, Steve Nash -- who is due to make about $6 million each of the next two years -- but is he $14 million per year better? I don't think so. Is he $4 million per year better than Kidd, whose extension averages about $16 million per? Debatable.

What's the worst that could have happened if the Suns had held out for less?

1. Marbury would have gotten offended and gone to another team for less money. Possible, but extremely unlikely. And, like I say, if that's the kind of player he is, I don't want him around anyway. $20 million annually can bring an awful lot of talent to an NBA team.

2. Marbury would have grumbled and taken the Suns' "bargain" offer, which is still more than he could have made from any other team. This would be a minor distraction for maybe a month or so while Marbury maybe made some noise about "respect." Then he would settle down and the Suns would have money to add more talent.

Those are the worst-case scenarios. The Suns had almost nothing to lose.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
Joe says he thinks Marbury doesn't deserve 20 million per. I agree. Now what?

Offer him less. It's very simple. He can't get more elsewhere. Other teams could offer him only a max deal, not an "overmax" one.

Are you honestly assuming that they all went into Jerry's office, Steph's agent said "4 years, 80 million", they shook hands, and then left the office?

You assume too much. Way too much.

 

[elindholm]

Are you honestly assuming that they all went into Jerry's office, Steph's agent said "4 years, 80 million", they shook hands, and then left the office?

No, but that was the final result. I mean, realistically, what else could have happened?

Colangelo: So, what figure did you have in mind?
Agent: The max. Four years, 80 million.
C: Hmm, that's kind of a lot.
A: He's worth it.
C: Would you take less, say, four years at 70? It would help the team.
A: (Pause) No.
C: (Pause) Hmm. (Pause) Okay, 80 it is.

What "negotation" could there have been? You don't "negotiate" a max extension. There's nothing to debate. Negotiation means that each side gives up a little and they meet in the middle somewhere. Max is max, it's not negotation.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
Are you honestly assuming that they all went into Jerry's office, Steph's agent said "4 years, 80 million", they shook hands, and then left the office?

No, but that was the final result. I mean, realistically, what else could have happened?

Colangelo: So, what figure did you have in mind?
Agent: The max. Four years, 80 million.
C: Hmm, that's kind of a lot.
A: He's worth it.
C: Would you take less, say, four years at 70? It would help the team.
A: (Pause) No.
C: (Pause) Hmm. (Pause) Okay, 80 it is.

What "negotation" could there have been? You don't "negotiate" a max extension. There's nothing to debate. Negotiation means that each side gives up a little and they meet in the middle somewhere. Max is max, it's not negotation.

Well, considering the max is 5 years, not 4, they've already semantically gone against what you've been saying.

I just think you think very, very little of the organization--which makes it difficult for me to understand why you care so much. But, to each his own I guess.

 

[elindholm]

I just think you think very, very little of the organization

As I said before, I think the organization's priorities are different from what I might hope. They paid Marion more than they had to, and now they've paid Marbury more than they had to.

I think the risk of either of them leaving the Suns over a couple million dollars per year was very, very small:

==> Marion would have had to decline an extension and take a one-year qualifying offer, Olowokandi-style, all the while gambling that he would stay healthy and that the market for his services would stay strong. And we saw how well that worked for Olowokandi, who wound up hurt and with a smaller contract than he was offered a year ago.

==> Marbury would have had to take less money from another team, just to prove a point, and deal with the blow to his image after failing to forge a productive relationship with his third team since coming into the league.

I just don't think either of these was much of a risk. Each had probably a 5% or less chance of happening. So what did the Suns gain through paying more than they had to? (Notice that I'm not saying, "more than they players are worth.")

==> They earned good will from the players.

==> They earned good will from the fans.

Well, yippee. But "good will" doesn't win titles. It produces good, financially successul teams. What "good will" moves did the Lakers, Spurs, Bulls, or Rockets make? None. Because they wanted to make champions, not friends.

Chaplin, I'll make a deal with you. You can continue to harp on me for criticizing this decision. But a few years down the road, when we're both still here, don't complain that the Suns can't get over the hump and create a title contender. Don't complain that the Suns don't get "respect" from the media or the officials. Don't complain that another year has ended with an early departure from the playoffs.

Because, in my opinion, that is exactly what the Suns have guaranteed for themselves today. I hope I'm wrong -- believe me, I really do. But I just don't see it happening now. Marbury, Marion, and Stoudemire are a very good first three, but they need a supporting cast. And I don't know how the Suns expect to find one that's willing to play for free.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Well, we've got 2 players that are worth the max. Both are in the top 3 who play at their position.

We've got one player whose likely going to be worth the max.

Hmm. Well, I think we could have worse problems than that. Its kind of like the billionaire complaining about how much he's got to pay in taxes.

If worse comes to worse, we can always trade one of our max players for 2 or 3 decent players. There all kinds of teams out there just dying to make that kind of deal.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Jerry Colangelo has always been willing to pay max type players max money. He doesn't quibble or try to low ball good players and I am so glad he doesn't.

The day Jerry tries to low ball a player, or even just mess with him some about salary is the day Jerry becomes. . .






Bill Bidwill

 

[elindholm]

If worse comes to worse, we can always trade one of our max players for 2 or 3 decent players.

Marbury is now untradeable, just as Garnett is.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
Chaplin, I'll make a deal with you. You can continue to harp on me for criticizing this decision. But a few years down the road, when we're both still here, don't complain that the Suns can't get over the hump and create a title contender. Don't complain that the Suns don't get "respect" from the media or the officials. Don't complain that another year has ended with an early departure from the playoffs.

You see, it's this talking down you do to people that irks me the most. And yes, I have been guilty of it in the past as well. And I have tried to acknowledge it--you seem to have no idea you're doing it.

You seem to think you're making some sort of concession--but this little "deal" you're making basically says "when I'm right in 2 years, you'll have to brown nose your way into my good graces." That is ego--I never once talked about the future and that you "should" do this, or "don't" do that. I have also consistently expressed my opinions moreso in regards to this season, rather than 4 or 5 years down the road. If that makes me naive, so be it--but I'm tired of waiting. It's been 35 years--I want the Suns to put a competitive team on the floor. They can do that this year. I'm not sure if we can compete for a championship this year, but I'll tell you we're a damn site better this year than we were last, and we were the "surprise" team last year.

Don't tell me not to complain--that is the exact opposite of what you have been doing to support your position, in having the freedom of expressing your opinion. But by all means, keep expressing it--that's what we're here for, after all.

I don't care what your opinion is on the matter--you are entitled to it just as everyone else is. I do disagree, however, of the way you present said opinion. That's all. I may be off base, wrong, etc... and for that I apologize, but again, talking down to people like you do doesn't make your opinion anymore valid than slinslin's, or hcsilla's, or Stefan's or even mine.

I appreciate your questioning of the organization--I have my own questions--but I also don't think that a monkey is running the organization and that I could do better. I wish they'd find a big man, just like everyone else, but I figure they're doing what they could.

The Colangelo's past record tells me they aren't just sitting on their hands and doing nothing like you think they are. If you're still thinking they don't care about the championship--which you stated in an earlier post--that's your prerogative, but in my experience, the C's have consistently tried to find a mix that would work--it hasn't worked for 35 years, but they keep trying. And right now, in a league where there is only one champion out of nearly 30 teams, well, isn't that the best anyone can do?

 

[elindholm]

Chaplin,

I apologize if my tone offended you. I think, by and large, when it is my intent to offend someone, it's usually pretty obvious. My impression is that you talk down to me more than I do to you, but you may not see it that way.

but this little "deal" you're making basically says "when I'm right in 2 years, you'll have to brown nose your way into my good graces."

Actually, no. I might slip up and say "I told you so," but that won't be my motivation. It's the complaining that others do about external things that gets to me. Some people complain about "power rankings," or the officiating, or a post by a fan of some other team. I confess I haven't kept track of what complaining you've done. But the Suns make their decisions and have to live with them, and if we buy into them when they're made, we have to live with the consequences. Those consequences include all of that other nonsense, because it is the makeup of the team that leads to those other issues.

I have also consistently expressed my opinions moreso in regards to this season, rather than 4 or 5 years down the road... It's been 35 years--I want the Suns to put a competitive team on the floor.

It hasn't been 35 years since the Suns put a "competitive" team on the floor. They were good enough to advance in the playoffs just a handful of years ago. This year's team cannot realistically compete for a championship, if that's what you mean with your reference to 35 years.

And besides, Marbury's contract extension does nothing to help this year's team.

I do disagree, however, of the way you present said opinion... talking down to people like you do doesn't make your opinion anymore valid than slinslin's, or hcsilla's...

I can't believe that when I explain things, you put that in the same category as the bickering you, slinslin, and hcsilla seem to be so fond of. I put a lot of thought into trying to explain my way of thinking, because some people, including you, seem interested.

The Colangelo's past record tells me they aren't just sitting on their hands and doing nothing like you think they are.

I have already said -- twice -- that I think they have a well formed plan, and they are following it strategically.

but in my experience, the C's have consistently tried to find a mix that would work--it hasn't worked for 35 years, but they keep trying.

I have a confession to make. I think that the Colangelos' priorities have changed. I really believe that. I don't know if it's because Jerry's losing piles of money on the Suns and Diamondbacks, or if it's because he won a World Series, or if he's just getting too old and has partly given up. I have no idea.

But these latest moves really seem doomed to me, in a way that earlier moves never did. I'm one of the few die-hard Suns fans who supported the Majerle/Williams trade from the beginning. I thought (incorrectly, as it turned out) that Longley was worth a shot. I thought that they acquired Barkley at the right time, and then dumped him at the right time. And I also believed that, if the Colangelos thought that an extra $5 million a season would help the team win a championship, they would spend it.

But now I don't know what to think. On the same day that the team says that it wouldn't consider paying Dikembe Mutombo $1 million a year, it pays Stephon Marbury $20 million. On the same day that the team finds itself with no healthy center on its roster, it makes a move that will make having depth on future rosters all but impossible. In the same week that the team dumps one of its more promising recent center prospects in the name of "flexibility," it locks itself into a single strategy through the end of the decade, with no backup plan.

Does every team have winning a championship as its goal? I think we'd agree that the answer is no. As we all know, professional sports is a business, and maybe the business side of Jerry Colangelo is starting to overtake the "fan" side.

I just don't see how paying Marbury $20 million a year instead of $17 million puts the Suns closer to a title. But what it does is make everyone happy (well, almost everyone) and ensure an attractive entertainment product. As fans, we all have to live with this decision. I guess all I was trying to say before was, we can question it now, or we can question it later.

 

[cardsunsfan]

I have to agree with Elindholm on this one. I don't think Marbury, Marion and Stoudemire can do it alone. I think will be in the thick of it every year now for the next five years but we won't have enough to win a championship. We need two above average players to play with them and a good sixth man. What if Johnson becomes really good? We won't be able to afford him I don't think. Basically if he developes into an excellent player it won't help us in the long run. There is no way I can see us getting a great center now either.

Marbury should be taking less money. I get tired of these players always saying they need to get pay what they are "worth" Do you think he will honestly need to adjust his way of living if he makes 80mil vs 100mil? No, but will he feel better if they are a more winning team if the money goes to another player and they eventually win a championship? I think so. He isn't even worth ]100mil either...

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

First off, I like the contract extension for one main reason: It proves that Colangelo is dedicated to one plan, and one core group. We hopefully will not have to worry about a big name change every 2 or 3 summers.

About JJ....I think the C's have it figured out. He is going into his third year, which means next summer he can recieve a contract extension. Unless he BLOWS UP huge this year, he will not get any ridiculous offers. If the team is still convinced he will realize even 2/3 of his potential (which as of now they do) they will lock him up for 5-7 years at what could turn out to be a bargain rate. He could wind up being a bargain like cassell was or steve nash is.

Honestly, this team has not just 3 solid players, but 3 players who SHOULD be on every allstar team starting next season most likely. With Penny and JJ, one of them is going to be a 6th man, and hopefully a very solid one. That means all we need is once again, a serviceable center.


IMO, if the suns can continue to lock up a player each summer, and just add through the draft or minor FAs, we will be able to contend with our core in the next few years. For the bench, do not forget Zarko or Leandro, although we have no real way to guage, they at least look like they will be contributers.


I would also like to point out that they gave Marbury a 4 and not a 5 year deal. That means him and Shawn are both locked up until the same season. So if the team is unable to contend with this plan, it does give flexibility in 2009 when they would clear like 30+ million off their payroll.

 

[Errntknght]

I don't agree with Eric... he was far too kind to the Suns brass. I like Marbury a good deal but he isn't worth 17 million, much less 20 or thereabout. There are three max worthy players in the league - Duncan, Shaq and Garnett... and I'm not too sure about Garnett. Everyone else is scaled down from that.

Break down Marbs game. He's a great penetrator and a very good finisher. He's a little above average (among NBA PGs, of course) as a playmaker - he gets most of his assists off teammates shooting jump shots, not from close in shots he helps them get. And he has the ball in his hands a large fraction of the time. He's a bit above average as a jump shooter. Well above average at getting to the FT line and at running a fast break. Average or a bit below as a defender and less than average at rebounding. His intangibles are good - he's tough, shows up to play every game, a leader, makes clutch plays and doesn't whine. On the other hand, he hasn't led any team deep in the playoffs.

So yeah, he's well above average overall but his contribution doesn't nearly match that of the three max players. Maybe he's worth 13-14 million which is far above average among starting NBA PGs. If NBA revenues don't pick up that's still a bit much.

Why did the C's overpay him? I think it's simple, by paying him more than Kidd got, they can feel like they made a good trade. The sad thing is they've turned it into a poor trade by overpaying him...

 

[arthurracoon]

Originally posted by JCSunsfan
Well, we've got 2 players that are worth the max. Both are in the top 3 who play at their position.

We've got one player whose likely going to be worth the max.

Hmm. Well, I think we could have worse problems than that. Its kind of like the billionaire complaining about how much he's got to pay in taxes.

If worse comes to worse, we can always trade one of our max players for 2 or 3 decent players. There all kinds of teams out there just dying to make that kind of deal.

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by elindholm
Since you're so disillusioned, Eric, there are plenty of teams around the league that need passionate fans. I suggest maybe looking to an organization that might not be so inept for your tastes.

Chaplin, if I had any choice in the matter, I would have stopped being a Suns fan by now.

But Phoenix will always be my home, regardless of where I live, and basketball will always be my sport, regardless of whether I can even walk (which right now I can't, thanks to Achilles tendon surgery). As a friend of mine once said, "You can't choose who you love." I'm stuck with the Suns, and that can be awfully frustrating, but I can't do anything about it.

And finally, the Suns organization is not "inept." They just have different priorities from what I might hope. I'd like them to do what they need to in order to compete for a title. They'd rather ensure 50-and-fade. It's a difference of philosophy, not competence.

Wow. This is a very mature response to a very childish previous post.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by elindholm
If worse comes to worse, we can always trade one of our max players for 2 or 3 decent players.

Marbury is now untradeable, just as Garnett is.

That is simply not true.

If Marbury get injured or blows up in some way, he might be untradeable, but since it is possible to trade multiple players for one player, it is possible to trade Marbury. There are LOTS of teams that would love to trade for Marbury.

Eric, I have a lot of respect for your basketball knowledge, I really don't know how you came up with this one.

Garnett's contract goes way beyond the cap, but even he is tradeable.

 

[SirStefan32]

When you make around $20M a year, there are very few teams that will take you. I believe Shawn Marion will be tradable, but I doubt Marbury is, unless we want to take a lot of garbage in return.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by schutd
Wow. This is a very mature response to a very childish previous post.

Well, that does it. Didn't write it like a childish post, but, to each his own.

 

[F-Dog]

When you make around $20M a year, there are very few teams that will take you. I believe Shawn Marion will be tradable, but I doubt Marbury is, unless we want to take a lot of garbage in return.

Didn't they say that about Juwan Howard?

I don't think that the Suns would be able to strip-mine another team's talent like the Wolves could in a Garnett deal, but they should be able to get nothing (expiring contracts) if they need to--unless Marbury has a catastrophic injury before then.

(Knocking furiously on wood...)