Problem: How to Discredit Jackson now?

[AfroSuns]

Phil Jackson is a great coach. I would just like to see what he could do without the best players to ever step on the court.

Me too, who is to say another coach wouldnt have won the championship with the calibres of players he had.

 

[SO91]

Greatest coach in any sport of all time is named Red, those 2 will never be and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as him...

How can you definitively make that statement when you didn't watch him coach? I know what the pundits say, and I know how many championships he won and how great the C's were with him, but I didn't watch him coach, so I couldn't make a statement like that.

 

[AfroSuns]

How can you definitively make that statement when you didn't watch him coach? I know what the pundits say, and I know how many championships he won and how great the C's were with him, but I didn't watch him coach, so I couldn't make a statement like that.

I thought that is what records are for, that is what hall of fame and legacies are for, if that doesnt convince you i dont know what will.

 

[SO91]

I thought that is what records are for, that is what hall of fame and legacies are for, if that doesnt convince you i dont know what will.

It proves a particular coach or player was great, but it doesn't prove he was the greatest ever, which is what Andrew is stating. He went as far saying he was the greates coach in any sport. It's like comparing players you never got a chance to watch regularly. I just don't think it can be done.

 

[mojorizen7]

When Nash was going for the tying 3 pointer with the clock winding down in game 5, Pops didnt have him fouled to prevent the shot. If I remember correctly this same scenario DA did the same thing and was questioned incessantly ont his board. POP is a better coach than DA, or at least his team responds to him better as their execution is better. But the 2nd guessing game can be made in both cases except Nashs 3 pt shot didnt fall and Duncans did. And between the two, I'd rather let Duncan shoot the 3 pter than Nash.

PJ and POP command player attention like no other coaches as they each have at least 4 championships. Players who want to be champions, listen to the guy whos done it, many times.

As for the lakers roster: "kobe and a bunch of scrubs", as it has already been pointed out Gasol is an all star, Odom would easily start for the suns, and the lakers have better outside shooters than the suns WITHOUT kobe. The lakers team is the deepest team int he playoffs, and they bring too much size and skill up front for this spurs team. Which scrub will oberto guard? Shall it be gasol or odom?

Like i said somewhere else....you've got to go deeper than that.
If...IF...you've got a solid defensive team(especially in terms of perimeter defense)then i can see not fouling and letting your team just defend the 3. However, the SUNS are not a good defensive team(especially on the perimeter) and the right call was to put them on the line for 2 shots. Arguing that "this coach didn't foul"....or "that coach intentionally fouled" when comparing this scenario is shortsighted.
Keep on apologizing for D'Antoni though...

 

[BC867]

Popavich I think more so than Jackson just walked into a great situation. He's a great coach, but without Duncan he'd be an average coach. Phil Jackson is probably the luckiest coach I've ever seen. He's gotten to coach 3 of the most dominant players of all time in Jordan, Shaq and Kobe.

To his credit, Jackson shaped a team around Kobe this year.

Once upon a time, Pat Riley replaced Paul Westhead as Coach of the Lakers and turned them into a dynasty.

Westhead had a team of all-stars and great role players, but couldn't produce. Riley did. That's what coaching is about. It didn't happen, any more than it happened to Phil Jackson. He's made it happen.

It's interesting that Westhead recently walked away from a Phoenix Mercury championship, after playing D'Antoni's brand of basketball.

Perhaps he knew what D'Antoni didn't. That if you don't coach complete basketball, you can milk it for only so long.

Reinsdorf knows it, too.

 

[Darth Llama]

Once upon a time, Pat Riley replaced Paul Westhead as Coach of the Lakers and turned them into a dynasty.

Westhead had a team of all-stars and great role players, but couldn't produce. Riley did. That's what coaching is about. It didn't happen, any more than it happened to Phil Jackson. He's made it happen.

That's exactly right. The team Phil took over for the 2000 season was loaded with talent. Shaq, Kobe, Glenn Rice, Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, John Salley, etc. That team however, could never get it done. Year after year, they would look great in the regular season, go into the playoffs and flame out. Good coaches can get you wins during the regular season, and Del Harris was a "good" coach. Great coaches win in the post season, and win consistently. As soon as Phil took over that team, they won 3 straight titles. People who discredit coaching in the playoffs really have no realistic basis for that theory. Coaching is everything in the playoffs, the only reason the Suns didn't beat the Spurs is coaching. They're not the only team that has this problem either, there are a few teams that are very talented, but don't have the coaching to get them over the top.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

here's what i think . . .

for years i have flip-flopped back and forth whether pj was a great coach or not. it's hard to deny the incredible talent that he's had at his disposal. same with pop. the dude had a team with david robinsons and tim duncans. was it the talent winning? yeah it was. but . . .

those teams had also been coached by other coaches prior to pj (and to a lesser extent pops) coming on board. those teams were good, but never won a championship. pj and pops def brought something to the table that others hadn't.

what really haven't seen is either coach with a crappy team. we don't know if they could raise a clippers to a playoff level or a sixers to the nba finals like larry brown.

does this mean larry brown is the best coach in the league? better than pj or pops? no. not by a longshot. what i think it is, is this . . .

. . . some coaches are made to coach talent to perfection, and others are made to coach up lesser talent. i think they may be different skillsets. you cannot reproach pj or pops for their success just b/c they had talent b/c they still succeeded where others had not. similarly we have no idea if they could get the current memphis team outta the cellar.

in the end, who cares who the "best coach ever" really is? do pj and pops have a combined 13 rings? yup. i'm sure their fans only care about those rings, not could they coach up a bunch of sags.

someone earlier in this thread made a statement about the suns team search for a new coach. i agreed with their assessment. you don't look for a guy with a proven track record unless that proven track record includes a championship (imo). you look for the next "great." he's gotta come from somewhere. why not compile a list of attributes and experience that you believe concoct the perfect recipe for greatness and seek him out. even if it's an unlikely assistant that none have heard of before? i'll tell you why it won't happen with the suns . . . the ownership (not kerr) is all about SELLING. shaq was acceptable to sarver b/c he'd SELL. i don't think sarver will accept anything less than a SALE as our head coach. and that's why, for at least now, we won't hire the "next great."

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Anyone who thinks Phil Jackson isn't the greatest coach of our era is not paying attention.

You can make the case that Pop has been riding Timmys coattails but PJ has now taken THREE completely different teams to multiple rings, or in todays case, a team of one star and a bunch of good players to the cusp. Think whatyou want but there were other compentent coaches in place with the SAME talent (Doug Collins had MJ and Pip, Del Harris had Shaq and Kobe IIRC) and not only didn't win rings but got no where near rings.

Phil Jackson has the X's and O's down pat and knows how to feature his stars in the offense. He also (and even more importantly) knows how to assuage egos and get everyone playing for the greater good of the team.

You might have been able to say he was overrated when he was just getting rings with MJ. But he took a underachieving center and won rings with him too.

And hes about to do it again. Anyone who discredits PJ is better served not having an opinion.

 

[Michael]

I wouldn't call Odom and Gasol "a bunch of good players".

Imagine Odom instead of Marion alongside Nash for the last four seasons. He would have been an all star for sure.
Gasol was Memphis franchise player for years and is just entering his prime.

I'm not saying they are on the same level as Bryant, but to me, at least, they are definitely "stars".

It's more like PJ has one superstar (one of the 3 best players in the league) and two stars and a bunch of good players.

 

[Gaddabout]

Once upon a time, Pat Riley replaced Paul Westhead as Coach of the Lakers and turned them into a dynasty.

Westhead had a team of all-stars and great role players, but couldn't produce. Riley did. That's what coaching is about. It didn't happen, any more than it happened to Phil Jackson. He's made it happen.

It's interesting that Westhead recently walked away from a Phoenix Mercury championship, after playing D'Antoni's brand of basketball.

Perhaps he knew what D'Antoni didn't. That if you don't coach complete basketball, you can milk it for only so long.

Reinsdorf knows it, too.

Well, Westhead and the Lakers won the 1980 championship. And he was known for breakneck basketball long before D'Antoni -- it was the style he adopted in the mid-80s with Loyola Marymount and the style that buried him with the Denver Nuggest in the 89/90 season. He has been known for that since his LMU days with Bo Kimble and the late Hank Gathers. He hasn't changed since then, he just wanted to be back in the NBA.

 

[BC867]

Well, Westhead and the Lakers won the 1980 championship.

Thanks to superstar Kareem scoring 40, then Ervin Johnson making Magic with 42, when Kareem went down with an injury.

From the archives:

In the '81 post-season, Los Angeles was stunned by the Houston Rockets in the first round of the playoffs. Led by Moses Malone, the Rockets bumped the Lakers in a best-of-three series, notching both victories in Los Angeles.

Owner Jerry Buss fired Coach Paul Westhead after the Lakers went 7-4 to start the 1981-82 season. Buss promoted Assistant Coach Pat Riley, a former Lakers backup point guard, to head coach on November 19, and the team won 17 of its next 20 games.

The Lakers took the Pacific Division title and then embarked on one of the most impressive playoff journeys in NBA history. They swept both Phoenix and the San Antonio Spurs with an average margin of victory of 11 points. Los Angeles then stretched its postseason winning streak to nine games by taking the first contest of the NBA Finals from the 76ers. Philadelphia came back to win Game 2, but the Lakers prevailed in the series, four games to two, to win their second title in three years. The team's playoff record that year was 12-2.

Westhead was in the right spot at the right time in 1980 -- with the right superstars. But it was Phil Jackson who turned the team into a dynasty.

It's ironic that Westhead walked away from the Phoenix Mercury at the end of last season because of the LA team. Lisa Leslie back from maternity leave and the brilliant rookie Candace Parker, who just missed a triple-double in her first start and leads the Sparks in scoring and assists and is tied for the lead in rebounding.

Westhead walked away with a Championship. The Lakers fired him with one.

Oh well, that's two more Championships than our Suns have.

 

[Irish]

Well, Westhead and the Lakers won the 1980 championship. And he was known for breakneck basketball long before D'Antoni -- it was the style he adopted in the mid-80s with Loyola Marymount and the style that buried him with the Denver Nuggest in the 89/90 season. He has been known for that since his LMU days with Bo Kimble and the late Hank Gathers. He hasn't changed since then, he just wanted to be back in the NBA.

Actually that's not true. When he was with the Lakers, he ran afoul of Magic Johnson.

1979-80 Westhead took over for Jack McKinney 14 games in and finished 60-14 and beat the Sixers in the finals. They averaged 115.1 ppg, they shot 52.9% and let their opponents shoot 47.0%.

1980-81 the Lakers won only 54 games and lost to the Rockerts in the first round. The Lakers scored ONLY 111.2 ppg and shot 51.2%, letting opponents shoot 46.5%.

In 1981-82 Westhead was 7-4 when let go and replaced by Riley. The Lakers averaged 114.6 ppg and shot 51.7%; but let opponents shoot 48.8%.

The Lakers under Riley did not exactly shut down opponents. Opponents shot

1981-82 --48.9% (won 58 games) Champion
1982-83 --49.0% (won 58 games)
1983-84 --48.3% (won 54 games)
1984-85 --48.0% (won 62 games)Champion
1985-86 --48.0% (won 62 games)
1986-87 --48.7% (won 65 games)Champion
1987-88 --47.6% (won 62 games)Champion
1988-89 --47.0% (won 57 games)
1989-90 --46.7% (won 63 games)

1990-91 46.2% (won 58 games under Dunleavy)

The stats suggest that Westhead may very well have been more defense oriented than he's given credit for, at least in comparison with Riley of that era.

 

[nowagimp]

Anyone who thinks Phil Jackson isn't the greatest coach of our era is not paying attention.

You can make the case that Pop has been riding Timmys coattails but PJ has now taken THREE completely different teams to multiple rings, or in todays case, a team of one star and a bunch of good players to the cusp. Think whatyou want but there were other compentent coaches in place with the SAME talent (Doug Collins had MJ and Pip, Del Harris had Shaq and Kobe IIRC) and not only didn't win rings but got no where near rings.

Phil Jackson has the X's and O's down pat and knows how to feature his stars in the offense. He also (and even more importantly) knows how to assuage egos and get everyone playing for the greater good of the team.

You might have been able to say he was overrated when he was just getting rings with MJ. But he took a underachieving center and won rings with him too.

And hes about to do it again. Anyone who discredits PJ is better served not having an opinion.

Lets not let perceptions get in the way of reality here. Doug collins, no great coach for sure, but he had pippen as a rookie, as well as the 4 other 1st round picks the bulls had that year. Jackson took over in the the 2nd year of the great lotto draft of the bulls. So did you expect collins to win with MJ and a bunch of rooks against the bad boy pistons? When Pat Reilly took over the lakers and made a dynasty, Magic was a rookie, and he won his first NBA championship in his first year. The greatest PG ever was that good coming out in his first year. Giving Pat Reilly the credit for magics dominance is pretty questionable. All of the coaches that are mentioned here made use of all time great players. When PJ had the lakers before pau(2006,7), and the deep lakers bench, it was first round and out. Sure PJ is an excellent coach, but the guy, and riley, and pops won alot of rings with the most dominant superstars of their eras. Frankly LB's championship with the pistons and Dalys 2 championships with the bad boy pistons seem more impressive from a coaching perspective.

 

[cobbler]

Lets not let perceptions get in the way of reality here. Doug collins, no great coach for sure, but he had pippen as a rookie, as well as the 4 other 1st round picks the bulls had that year. Jackson took over in the the 2nd year of the great lotto draft of the bulls. So did you expect collins to win with MJ and a bunch of rooks against the bad boy pistons? When Pat Reilly took over the lakers and made a dynasty, Magic was a rookie, and he won his first NBA championship in his first year. The greatest PG ever was that good coming out in his first year. Giving Pat Reilly the credit for magics dominance is pretty questionable. All of the coaches that are mentioned here made use of all time great players. When PJ had the lakers before pau(2006,7), and the deep lakers bench, it was first round and out. Sure PJ is an excellent coach, but the guy, and riley, and pops won alot of rings with the most dominant superstars of their eras. Frankly LB's championship with the pistons and Dalys 2 championships with the bad boy pistons seem more impressive from a coaching perspective.

Good points. However, your reality of the Lakers pre pau is a little distorted. Their bench was not so deep. In the 2 first round losses, Farmar was not there for one and a rookie in the other. Sasha has just come into his own this year. Turiaf was a rookie. Bynum was green. The only player on this years deep bench that was a semi decent player was Walton. Not to mention the starting guard/center combo of smush and Kwame. That that team even made the playoffs is a great coaching job. That they took a favorite to win the title to a 7th game was huge.

IMO

 

[Irish]

Any team with Kobe is a contender. There were some very odd things in that series, such as the refusal of the refs to let Nash call a timeout.

 

[nowagimp]

Good points. However, your reality of the Lakers pre pau is a little distorted. Their bench was not so deep. In the 2 first round losses, Farmar was not there for one and a rookie in the other. Sasha has just come into his own this year. Turiaf was a rookie. Bynum was green. The only player on this years deep bench that was a semi decent player was Walton. Not to mention the starting guard/center combo of smush and Kwame.
IMO

OK point taken, but to suns fans kwame, Bynum, and Mihm looked pretty good next to Jake Tsakalidis and Jake Voskuhl. And really, Kobe plus lamar, mihm, and change should get you into the playoffs. Because the lakers dont really use a PG to distribute the ball, smush isnt as bad as if he would be running a conventional offense.

 

[cobbler]

OK point taken, but to suns fans kwame, Bynum, and Mihm looked pretty good next to Jake Tsakalidis and Jake Voskuhl. And really, Kobe plus lamar, mihm, and change should get you into the playoffs. Because the lakers dont really use a PG to distribute the ball, smush isnt as bad as if he would be running a conventional offense.

Agreed. However, Smush's weakness was defense. Getting in the playoffs and advancing past the first round are different animals as well but good points.

 

[ambchang_]

Greatest coach in any sport of all time is named Red, those 2 will never be and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as him...

For someone who sounds like he hasn't watched more than 10 years of NBA, that is a huge statement.

Perhaps you could explain why Red is so much better than either Phil Jackson or Gregg Popovich? Or even Larry Brown, Chuck Daly or Hubie Brown?

 

[Maligzar]

But now what? He has Kobe Bryant and a bunch of scrubs on the court, and they're really handing it to the Spurs.

Pao Gasol is the reason why the Lakers are doing so well, not Phil Jackson.

Not that Phil isn;t a great coach, he is, but calling Pau a "scrub" is a falacy.