Quickness of Nash question

[Russ Smith]

On a UCLA board I made a comment about Jordan Farmar where i said I'd put him between nash and Bibby in terms of quickness, bit quicker than Bibby(who has slowed down fairly early in his career), but not as quick as Nash.

One guy said I'm crazy, Nash is one of the quicker plays in the NBA, much quicker than Farmar. Another guy said Bibby is quicker than Nash.

As you can guess it's a debate among UCLA fans of how high Farmar would go in the draft.

 

[jibikao]

It's a known fact that Nash is not very quick. I think in terms of speedy, Bibby and Nash are about the same. But in terms of foot-work, Nash is better.

 

[SunsTzu]

I'd say Bibby is quicker as well. I think Nash's body control and ability to change speeds make him appear quicker than he is. Like Manu he is more deceptive than quick.

Edit- Also I think it's Nash's lack of quickness that hurts him on D.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'd say Bibby is quicker as well. I think Nash's body control and ability to change speeds make him appear quicker than he is. Like Manu he is more deceptive than quick.

interesting. I see bibby a lot and it seems like he's really slowed down, but maybe that's just the pace of the game and not him? the Kings aren't running as much these days.

 

[nowagimp]

Nash looks slower than he is because he is probing the entire defense with his penetrations, not just one defender. He's looking for a passing lane as the defense responds to a penetration move. If he goes too fast, he'll miss the read or the response will not happen with the proper timing. Other players that defend Nash are frequently frozen by the threat of a pass. Nash passes very quickly with either hand, making the threat of a pass always real. When he freezes opposing players and just goes by them, it looks almost like slow motion, hence the "slow" label. He's not really that slow. Most NBA players probe with quickness and are really paying attention to their defender, while Nash is observing the movement of the help defense when he probes. If Nash catches the help D out of position, the pass will be made.

I think that Nashs defense takes a back seat to his constant, energy consuming offensive penetration moves. Sometimes Nash will make 3 penetration moves in a single possession. Nash creates the defensive movement that leads to open shots. NBA players only have so much energy and the point position can be one of the highest energy positions, especially the way Nash plays. Billups, on the other hand, is not in constant motion on offense because the pistons create open shots with alot of screens and off ball movement. Nash moves more than any sun, while Hamilton clearly moves more without the ball than Billups does with it.

Bibby seems like he's slowed down as the season progressed. Maybe its wear and tear as the season progresses. Bibby had to carry that team offensively for quite awhile, and he's even smaller than Nash.

 

[Russ Smith]

Nash looks slower than he is because he is probing the entire defense with his penetrations, not just one defender. He's looking for a passing lane as the defense responds to a penetration move. If he goes too fast, he'll miss the read or the response will not happen with the proper timing. Other players that defend Nash are frequently frozen by the threat of a pass. Nash passes very quickly with either hand, making the threat of a pass always real. When he freezes opposing players and just goes by them, it looks almost like slow motion, hence the "slow" label. He's not really that slow. Most NBA players probe with quickness and are really paying attention to their defender, while Nash is observing the movement of the help defense when he probes. If Nash catches the help D out of position, the pass will be made.

I think that Nashs defense takes a back seat to his constant, energy consuming offensive penetration moves. Sometimes Nash will make 3 penetration moves in a single possession. Nash creates the defensive movement that leads to open shots. NBA players only have so much energy and the point position can be one of the highest energy positions, especially the way Nash plays. Billups, on the other hand, is not in constant motion on offense because the pistons create open shots with alot of screens and off ball movement. Nash moves more than any sun, while Hamilton clearly moves more without the ball than Billups does with it.

Bibby seems like he's slowed down as the season progressed. Maybe its wear and tear as the season progresses. Bibby had to carry that team offensively for quite awhile, and he's even smaller than Nash.

I think the thing that makes Nash the toughest to defend is he's balanced, if you back off he'll kill you with jumpshots, if you come up on him, he's so good handling the ball he'll go right by you.

That's the difference between him and Farmar(that and about 10 years), Farmar is not consistent enough of a shooter, or a good enough ballhandler to do that yet.

But it's sounding more and more like Farmar is going to declare without an agent so it's at least possible he'll get a first round guarantee and stay in the draft. He reminds me quite a bit of Nash, just not nearly as good at this point.

Nash' junior year at Santa Clara he wanted to declare, but NBA people advised him he was a 2nd rounder so he came back and got better. I'm expecting that's what will happen with Farmar this year.

 

[Chaplin]

I think the real thing that makes Nash "seem" fast is his passing. A pass from Nash almost seems like it's protected in midair from stealing. Plus, he can do it so fast it's barely noticable until Shawn is slamming it down.

 

[nowagimp]

I think the real thing that makes Nash "seem" fast is his passing. A pass from Nash almost seems like it's protected in midair from stealing. Plus, he can do it so fast it's barely noticable until Shawn is slamming it down.

Yes, it is the passing and his release of the ball is so quick, with either hand, off the dribble etc. I imagine defending that pass in combination with a deadly shot and its like a randy johnson fastball, there is so little time to adjust that it freezes defenders.

 

[hcsilla]

He reminds me quite a bit of Nash.

He reminds me of Steve Blake, a solid, talented PG but I don't think that he will be a star.

 

[Russ Smith]

He reminds me of Steve Blake, a solid, talented PG but I don't think that he will be a star.

that's another good comparison, i think he'll be good in the NBA eventually but nothing like Nash. of course I didn't think Nash would be near this good.Blake has become a reasonably good player.

This is what I wrote about nash in 1996 in a Usenet draft mock draft that was run by a friend of mine.


Strengths: Nash is the epitome of a gym rat, good shooter, can dribble the
ball and is an excellent passer. Smart and very competitive, knows his
limitations and uses what he has. Improved every year at Santa Clara.

Weaknesses: Not slow but not quick, improving but still a poor defender,
had trouble getting his own shot against quality opponents. Played in
Canada and thus is still adjusting to the level of play in the US.
Sometimes Nash forgets what's a good shot and what's not.

Comments: Another kid you have to like, late first rounder who could move
up, the comparisons to Stockton are skin deep, nowhere near as quick. Has
to improve his defense, played a lot of zone in college which could hurt
him in the NBA.


In hindsight I think Nash is quicker than I realized at the time that I wrote that. I live in the Bay Area so I saw all 4 years of his career on tv, and in person. Never dreamed he'd be looking at possible back to back MVP's but he's certainly earned it, what a fun player to watch.

 

[reader]

This is from the SI article that Jack McCallum wrote about Nash, earlier in the year.

Athleticism Physically gifted point guards go around (the speedy Iverson), through (the powerful Billups) or over (the spring-loaded Davis) their opponents. It's obvious that Nash isn't that powerful or blessed with much lift. But here's news: He's not all that quick, either -- not from a standing start, anyway. Nash and his teammates and coaches shake their heads when they hear testimonies to his quickness, for within his own team Bell, House, Stoudemire and All-Star forward Shawn Marion are all quicker, never mind backup guard Leandro Barbosa, who's twice as quick. Yes, the Suns are one of the league's quickest teams, yet Nash feels he can be outquicked by most of his opponents.

But not outjuked. "I'm more elusive than quick, and people confuse the two," says Nash. "I'm really good on the move, which involves coordination, timing and balance. Once I get going, I can do a lot of things. But I'm painfully bad at explosiveness." What Nash has done, then, is to master ways to be always moving. The Suns' offense is predicated on that principle, even in the half-court. Nash gives it up on the run and gets it back (by a pass or a dribble handoff) on the run. But what else would you expect?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I have told you this before Russ but i think Farmar is Jason Kidd part Deux.

I just think Kidd was more able to take advantage of running an gunning in college then Ben Howland allows for at UCLA. If you think about it, it goes completly against his defensive/rebounding first mentality to let his PG run it up and down. I have seen enough from Farmar that i think he has that knack for passing and i think he can develop as a shooter.

The one thing Kidd has on him is size and rebounding, but they seem to be a similar build and i think Farmar is only a couple inches smaller than Kidd.

I think he would be the man on the Suns. And im a Cats fan so dont think im giving this Bruin uneccessary love.....

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'd say Bibby is quicker as well. I think Nash's body control and ability to change speeds make him appear quicker than he is. Like Manu he is more deceptive than quick.

Edit- Also I think it's Nash's lack of quickness that hurts him on D.

i don't think it's his quickness that serves as his problem, it's his change of direction.

he's actually fairly quick. his acceleration is really what seems to separate him from a lot of other players. he can go from a skip to pretty fast when he sees a crease in the lane.

 

[Russ Smith]

I have told you this before Russ but i think Farmar is Jason Kidd part Deux.

I just think Kidd was more able to take advantage of running an gunning in college then Ben Howland allows for at UCLA. If you think about it, it goes completly against his defensive/rebounding first mentality to let his PG run it up and down. I have seen enough from Farmar that i think he has that knack for passing and i think he can develop as a shooter.

The one thing Kidd has on him is size and rebounding, but they seem to be a similar build and i think Farmar is only a couple inches smaller than Kidd.

I think he would be the man on the Suns. And im a Cats fan so dont think im giving this Bruin uneccessary love.....

Yeah Kidd comes to mind a bit too although jason was much stronger at the same age.

There's no question the pace UCLA plays at hurts Farmar's numbers, he'd be great in an open court game but, you'd sure have to live with some turnovers. Farmar was in some USA junior event(used to be called the Sports Festival) before his senior year in HS. Other kids in the thing were Telfair, Shaun Livingston, Darius Washington etc. all the bigname PG's in that class. In one game Farmar played 19 minutes and had 12 assists and 9 turnovers!

I love the kid if he comes out nobody will root harder for him than I will, but I think he needs one more year to improve the jumper and play more under control. It's not easy playing in a system that frequently results in you having the ball with 5 seconds on the clock 25 feet from the basket trying to get a good shot. Hopefully with Shipp back next year UCLA will have enough offense to play at a faster pace.

I do think the Suns system would be perfect for him.

 

[Gaddabout]

That Nash can be so successful as a run-and-gun PG is the same reason a cornerback who runs a 4.55 40 can be an all-pro in the NFL: Fluid body movement, perfect balance, sharp change of direction, fluid hip motion, hand-eye coordination, flexibility, anticipation -- they all rate a little bit higher in American sports than pure athleticism. Don't get me wrong, you have to be fast enough, but you also have to think of athleticism in dimensions, not just how fast from point A to point B. There are lots of phenomenal athletes who never make it because they are stiff when it comes to the reactive type requirements of team sports.

 

[hcsilla]

This is what I wrote about nash in 1996 in a Usenet draft mock draft that was run by a friend of mine.

Strengths: Nash is the epitome of a gym rat, good shooter, can dribble the
ball and is an excellent passer. Smart and very competitive, knows his
limitations and uses what he has. Improved every year at Santa Clara.

Weaknesses: Not slow but not quick, improving but still a poor defender,
had trouble getting his own shot against quality opponents. Played in
Canada and thus is still adjusting to the level of play in the US.
Sometimes Nash forgets what's a good shot and what's not.

Comments: Another kid you have to like, late first rounder who could move
up, the comparisons to Stockton are skin deep, nowhere near as quick. Has
to improve his defense, played a lot of zone in college which could hurt
him in the NBA.

In hindsight I think Nash is quicker than I realized at the time that I wrote that. I live in the Bay Area so I saw all 4 years of his career on tv, and in person. Never dreamed he'd be looking at possible back to back MVP's but he's certainly earned it, what a fun player to watch.

It's very interesting to read a scouting report from 10 years ago and to see how people saw future NBA players then.

To be honest I liked Nash's play in Dallas but I never ever would have thought that he will be that good in Phoenix. In fact I wouldn't have traded Marbury for him straight up. It was really a genius move from Colangelo and D'Antoni to bring him to the Suns and build a team around him.

 

[nowagimp]

It's very interesting to read a scouting report from 10 years ago and to see how people saw future NBA players then.

To be honest I liked Nash's play in Dallas but I never ever would have thought that he will be that good in Phoenix. In fact I wouldn't have traded Marbury for him straight up. It was really a genius move from Colangelo and D'Antoni to bring him to the Suns and build a team around him.

Its kind of tough to call colangelo a genious for the Nash move, when he traded Nash away to begin with. D'Antoni is another matter, however. Clearly D'Antoni is a great basketball mind due to his success with players that the rest of the league did not rate highly.

 

[F-Dog]

I don't think Farmar compares to Nash as a player, so comparing them athletically isn't very useful IMO. Nash is a pure point, while Farmar is a scoring point with extra feel a la Bibby.

I don't think Farmar is as athletic as Bibby, and IMO Farmar's handle is weak for an NBA point. My current comp for Farmar is a bigger Dan Dickau.

 

[Russ Smith]

I don't think Farmar compares to Nash as a player, so comparing them athletically isn't very useful IMO. Nash is a pure point, while Farmar is a scoring point with extra feel a la Bibby.

I don't think Farmar is as athletic as Bibby, and IMO Farmar's handle is weak for an NBA point. My current comp for Farmar is a bigger Dan Dickau.

Another fair comparison actually. Farmar is a better athlete than people give him credit for, he won the preseason vertical leap contest at UCLA(because Aboya had 2 knee surgeries and couldn't compete), but he's not a lightning quick guy or anything like that. I think he's more athletic than Bibby is today, but probably not any more athletic than Bibby was at the same age. Maybe it's the hair thing but Bibby to me has really aged quickly.

And yeah Jordan is a scoring type PG although I think in a wide open offense like the Suns play, he'd surprise you at how well he sees the floor. Big problem is all the turnovers and that's largely a function of lazy passes and not being a strong enough ballhandler as you said.

 

[Gaddabout]

Do we really want a Farmar if a Ronnie Brewer comes out? There are still a few players who could change this whole draft, at least in the teens to 20-something picks. I think it's still way too early to be sold on a player.