Rate the Hollywood Brown trade

[Cheesebeef]

If Keim really did trade for Hollywood because Hopkins was suspended, it should be huge mark against him. First round picks are way too valuable to be trading them to plug a temporary hole.

This is such a great point.

It all goes to the notion that Keim never has a long term plan or vision for the team. His lack of foresight has been obvious for years, the only thing that is truly important is what’s right in front of his face, damn the future. It’s a reason our cap is always so f’ed up.

 

[Chopper0080]

He's obviously a talented receiver. Unfair to judge him on this **** show of an offense right now.

He's averaging 76 yards per game in this crappy offense. That's 9th in the league this season. That's more than CeeDee, McLaurin, Lockett, Evans, Cooper and Godwin. He's only 2 yards per game behind Waddle and 2.5 behind AJ Brown. Two players fans would be jizzing their pants over had we traded a 1st round pick for them.

If we were 8-5 and Brown has the exact same stats fans would be crowning the trade as fantastic. You're judging him on the overall performance of the team/offense when he's done his job.

And only missed games because of a crappy underthrown ball that cause a 200lb cornerback to land on his foot. The only significant time he's missed in 4 seasons.

So yeah, he's worth what he's worth when he hits FA which is still after next season.

The one thing that Brown can control is catching the ball. Your best players need to be solving problems and making plays, not blowing them. This is now a repeating issue with Brown and should make you think twice about paying him 20 mil per year.

 

[Chopper0080]

I'm not even bothered about that. A WR is more valuable than a C.

Brown is already 33 all time on the Cardinals single season yards per game table. Out of over 1000. He's 4th in the past 10 years.

And our offense sucks. We've one of the lowest YPA's in the league and he's still delivering yards.

I don't get the complaint.

Linderbaum is a good C, might be great, but the return from a good WR will always be more value than that of a good C.

People complaining because he dropped a tough pass when Nuk coughed up a scoop and score...

What they are really complaining about is it's something Keim did so it has to be bad.

That can be true but only for a few WRs in the NFL and is not a general rule.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

The one thing that Brown can control is catching the ball. Your best players need to be solving problems and making plays, not blowing them. This is now a repeating issue with Brown and should make you think twice about paying him 20 mil per year.

He'll surely want to be compensated as a top flight WR, which is probably why the Ravens were thrilled to take a first rounder for him.

Brown is just a guy, and giving up a first rounder/20M per is just compounding the same problem.

 

[Chopper0080]

He'll surely want to be compensated as a top flight WR, which is probably why the Ravens were thrilled to take a first rounder for him.

Brown is just a guy, and giving up a first rounder/20M per is just compounding the same problem.

Brown is an above-replacement-level but he is not one of the top 10 best Wrs in the NFL which is where I expect him to want to be paid.

 

[ajcardfan]

I see the trade the same way I saw it that day. Brown is a very good NFL WR. Not one GM would argue that. Every team would take him over other WRs on their roster. If they hypothetically could do so. And, he is still only 25.

Now, look at our 1st round pick history with Keim in charge. It's been a very mixed bag to put it kindly.

At least we got a young player who was proven to be productive in the NFL.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I see the trade the same way I saw it that day. Brown is a very good NFL WR. Not one GM would argue that. Every team would take him over other WRs on their roster. If they hypothetically could do so. And, he is still only 25.

Now, look at our 1st round pick history with Keim in charge. It's been a very mixed bag to put it kindly.

At least we got a young player who was proven to be productive in the NFL.

Is he better than Christian Kirk? If the money ends up being equal, wouldn't you rather have paid Kirk and have the 1st rounder?

We had a young player that was proven to be productive in the NFL, and spent big time resources to replace him. Classic Keim!

 

[kerouac9]

Is he better than Christian Kirk? If the money ends up being equal, wouldn't you rather have paid Kirk and have the 1st rounder?

We had a young player that was proven to be productive in the NFL, and spent big time resources to replace him. Classic Keim!

He’s better than Kirk. This year he’s a value, and probably next (especially when combined with M Sanders).

It’s the two out years once you’re paying him more than Kirk that are problematic, but Keim doesn’t really plan two years ahead.

 

[ajcardfan]

Is he better than Christian Kirk? If the money ends up being equal, wouldn't you rather have paid Kirk and have the 1st rounder?

We had a young player that was proven to be productive in the NFL, and spent big time resources to replace him. Classic Keim!

I liked Kirk and wanted him to stay here. Sure, I would have loved to have some hypothetical first round pick be a home run for once.

We all knew with the money Kirk was going to get in free agency it wasn't going to happen. I said he should've been extended the year before that and was ridiculed for the idea. There were a lot of dry eyes around here the day he signed with the Jags.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I liked Kirk and wanted him to stay here. Sure, I would have loved to have some hypothetical first round pick be a home run for once.

We all knew with the money Kirk was going to get in free agency it wasn't going to happen. I said he should've been extended the year before that and was ridiculed for the idea. There were a lot of dry eyes around here the day he signed with the Jags.

Yes the smart decision would’ve been to extend Kirk a year before free agency and got a hometown discount while Kirk de-risked and got the bag. Then we still have the tweener 2/3 receiver plus the pick to build the roster.

Zach Allen and Byron Murphy here in 2023 will be two more similar examples of Keim’s amateur hour approach to roster building.

 

[reebokalone2001]

I love the guy but wouldn't have made a difference? It was 13-13 if he catches that pass we're in easy FG range at worst, hopefully get a TD so we're either up 3 or up 7.

Next possession was the fumble by D HOp for the score and they went up. If you assume that still happens we're either down 4 or tied after that, instead of down 7.

ONe thing is and Aikman said it last night too, either someone is running wrong routes(mcBride?) or the design of the routes sucks. ON the play where Brown drew a PI, McBride was so close to him it was insane. On the big drop, McBride is downfield wide open too I think it actually had something to do with why Brown didn't catch it I think he was trying to make sure he didn't get too close to McBride and then reacted oddly to the throw. He kind of jumped for a ball he didn't need to jump for. I don't know if McBride is running the wrong route or if it's the play design but it sucks.

There was another player where Colt threw behind McBride and he couldn't catch it, you could see the reaction from Colt like he thought McBride ran the route wrong.

What is the common denominator? Our potential 2nd rounder Austin Hooper. I don't think I have ever criticized a rookie this much. But man, he just keeps disappointing me, especially with all his miss blocks and non-engaging effort. A bad playing attitude is a bigger alarm for me than their skills/ability while watching rookies.

 

[reebokalone2001]

I'm not even bothered about that. A WR is more valuable than a C.

Brown is already 33 all time on the Cardinals single season yards per game table. Out of over 1000. He's 4th in the past 10 years.

And our offense sucks. We've one of the lowest YPA's in the league and he's still delivering yards.

I don't get the complaint.

Linderbaum is a good C, might be great, but the return from a good WR will always be more value than that of a good C.

People complaining because he dropped a tough pass when Nuk coughed up a scoop and score...

What they are really complaining about is it's something Keim did so it has to be bad.

Is a star WR#1 more valuable than a competent starting C? Sure. Is a competent starting WR#2 more valuable than a competent starting C, I don't think so, especially with how our QB plays and how our offense runs. The marginal effect on returns from WRs declines exponentially beyond WR#1. The contribution of a competent WR#2 can be spread out by competent WR#3 and #4, as long as you have WR #1 on the field. But you only have one center playing on the field, and his return cannot be replaced by anyone else.

 

[Russ Smith]

What is the common denominator? Our potential 2nd rounder Austin Hooper. I don't think I have ever criticized a rookie this much. But man, he just keeps disappointing me, especially with all his miss blocks and non-engaging effort. A bad playing attitude is a bigger alarm for me than their skills/ability while watching rookies.

I don't know if he was in the wrong or not but I did see it at least twice in the game where he was close to Hollywood on a route which seemed odd

 

[reebokalone2001]

You do realize that what prompted this trade was that we KNEW we would be without Hop for 6 weeks??? If you have a bitch with anyone, let it be with Hop. If Hop doesn’t get suspended, we would have taken that stud C with our 1st pick.

I did blame Hopkins for this, but I also blame Keim. Trading an opportunity to draft a good starting OL for a rental WR (I would not extend him unless he is OK with WR#2 money) to complement the 6 game void of Hopkins is just not a smart move to build a good roster. I held against this trade when it happened and I still hold against it today.

 

[AZCB34]

I love the guy but wouldn't have made a difference? It was 13-13 if he catches that pass we're in easy FG range at worst, hopefully get a TD so we're either up 3 or up 7.

Next possession was the fumble by D HOp for the score and they went up. If you assume that still happens we're either down 4 or tied after that, instead of down 7.

ONe thing is and Aikman said it last night too, either someone is running wrong routes(mcBride?) or the design of the routes sucks. ON the play where Brown drew a PI, McBride was so close to him it was insane. On the big drop, McBride is downfield wide open too I think it actually had something to do with why Brown didn't catch it I think he was trying to make sure he didn't get too close to McBride and then reacted oddly to the throw. He kind of jumped for a ball he didn't need to jump for. I don't know if McBride is running the wrong route or if it's the play design but it sucks.

There was another player where Colt threw behind McBride and he couldn't catch it, you could see the reaction from Colt like he thought McBride ran the route wrong.

If he makes catch it changes every play after that one.

 

[AZCB34]

You do realize that what prompted this trade was that we KNEW we would be without Hop for 6 weeks??? If you have a bitch with anyone, let it be with Hop. If Hop doesn’t get suspended, we would have taken that stud C with our 1st pick.

1000x this

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Hindsight.

A GM is paid to literally exercise foresight.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That can be true but only for a few WRs in the NFL and is not a general rule.

Exactly. It’s why you almost never see a top center hit free agency. Those guys play out their entire careers with one team usually.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yes the smart decision would’ve been to extend Kirk a year before free agency and got a hometown discount while Kirk de-risked and got the bag. Then we still have the tweener 2/3 receiver plus the pick to build the roster.

Zach Allen and Byron Murphy here in 2023 will be two more similar examples of Keim’s amateur hour approach to roster building.

It’s truly amazing that all three of those guys weren’t extended prior to their last years. If a bunch of yahoos on ASFN can be clamoring for that even a brain dead gm should know to do it. Then there’s keim.

 

[BritCard]

The one thing that Brown can control is catching the ball. Your best players need to be solving problems and making plays, not blowing them. This is now a repeating issue with Brown and should make you think twice about paying him 20 mil per year.

What repeated issues?

He dropped this one. It wasn't great but it happens. No receiver is 100%. I saw AJ Brown drop and easy catch on Sunday right into his hands, far easier than the diving catch Brown had.

What else as he dropped? The "drop" against the Raiders was caught and knocked out by a safety at full speed. Nobody is catching that.

What others? Because Marquise Brown has a 2.5% drop rate this season. That's 118th in the league. The only wide receivers with 70+ catches with a lower drop rate are Cooper Kupp (2%) and Terry McLaurin (2%).

This board is detached from reality.

Deebo has a 10% drop rate, as does Gabe Davis. Jalen Waddle has 7.4%. Amari Cooper 7.3%. Chase 7.2%. AJ Brown 6%.

 

[BritCard]

That can be true but only for a few WRs in the NFL and is not a general rule.

I'm sorry, I normally agree with you but this is not remotely true.

Linderbaum is the best C in last years draft yet went behind 6 WR's. There are on average 6+ WR's go every year before the 1st C.

Now, more WR's touch the field than C's so there is more demand for WR but even teams with bad C's will take a potential stud WR over a potential stud C. And they did just that in the last draft. Why didn't the alcons replace Drew Dalman instead of drafting Drake London? Why did the Commanders draft Dotson instead of replacing Nick Martin with Linderbaum when they already had McLaurin, Samuel and Dyami Brown?

The Bengals drafted Chase, Higgins and Tyler Boyd while rolling out 2014 UDFA Trey Hopkins at C between 2018 and 2021 and if I could be bothered I could find 10 more similar cases. Because good WR's are far more valuable than C's.

This is like saying a run stopping DT is more important than CB.

 

[BritCard]

Yes the smart decision would’ve been to extend Kirk a year before free agency and got a hometown discount while Kirk de-risked and got the bag. Then we still have the tweener 2/3 receiver plus the pick to build the roster.

Zach Allen and Byron Murphy here in 2023 will be two more similar examples of Keim’s amateur hour approach to roster building.

Have you considered they tried to extend Kirk and he didn't want to know?

I wouldn't have extended if I was Kirk. He was grossly misused until his final year here.

 

[kerouac9]

Have you considered they tried to extend Kirk and he didn't want to know?

I wouldn't have extended if I was Kirk. He was grossly misused until his final year here.

“Have you considered that maybe the player said no to more money?” is truly the last refuge of the damned for the front office apologist.

Pure unprovable, undisprovable, and unsupportable speculation.

 

[BritCard]

“Have you considered that maybe the player said no to more money?” is truly the last refuge of the damned for the front office apologist.

Pure unprovable, undisprovable, and unsupportable speculation.

This is dumb. Especially as you clearly know better.

How is he saying no to more money? He's getting more money either way in FA. The only option is who he gets it from.

In fact he got MORE money.

It's especially hilarious when neither you or Mao rated Kirk and neither wanted to pay him anywhere near $17m so I'm not exactly sure what you think Keim did wrong on this one? Not getting him for half his actual market value doesn't seem like a black mark on his record.

Thanks for proving my point from yesterday though.

Fan: Why didn't Keim do this really obvious thing that requires the consent of the player that I didn't really like much anyway! He sucks!

Me: Maybe the player didn't want to know after being misused most of his time here?

You: Why are you an apologist for the front office?!

I mean, Keim sucks. That doesn't mean we can all just make up dumb **** and disapply common sense.

 

[ajcardfan]

Go back and revisit this thread. NOBODY says we should have paid Kirk that. Nobody says we should have extended earlier for a cheaper deal. In fact, the Jags are mocked for signing him. Lots of posts straight up say Kirk is basically trash. A lot more threads thrashing Kirk last year, and the year before that, can be bumped.

Kirk to Jaguars

Kirk was the last remaining player from our 2018 draft class. And somehow Steve Keim received a 5 year extension. Just baffling. It's not...we just don't want to face the hard, brutal truth of the matter. He's getting paid for his stop gap signings. Is what it is. It's something we'll all just...

www.arizonasportsfans.com

So, the revisionist history is laughable. Brown had a bad drop in the last game. Then people get all emotional over that play and suddenly second guess not re-signing Kirk. Did everyone forget Kirk was ripped for drops as well?

Every NFL WR drops passes. Even the greats like Larry Fitzgerald and Hopkins.