Ravens | Won't pay Rice AP/ CJ money

[Cbus cardsfan]

It all depends on how safe we feel we are. Beanie has had multiple surgeries, and may never have a full season for the remainder of his career. Williams hasn't rushed a down yet and has already had surgery. I find it odd that people are scared about a guy who has missed 3 games in his 4 year career, while being a pure stud.

I wouldn't call it scared, it's just the nature of the position. Say they give him 35 mill guranteed and game 3 three he makes a cut and is done. That is not even that far fetched. Then you have sunk costs when they didn't need to be. At least with other positions, like OT, the player can come back and perform at the same high level. With RB's, if they ever get back to normal, it's a 2-3 year process.

 

[Stout]

Of course they won't and they would be moronic if they did. The Raven's offense runs the ball well no matter who is back there. Rice has tons of mileage on him.

So they put anyone back there and they rack up those kinds of numbers? False. He is their offense.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

So they put anyone back there and they rack up those kinds of numbers? False. He is their offense.

Didn't Willis McGahee run for 1000 yards? And one year their FB was swithced to RB bceause of injuries and I think he ran for 1000, or close to it. McClain?

 

[Stout]

Ray Rice: 1364 yards rushing, 12 TD; 76 receptions, 704 yards, 3 TD

Rice isn't worth it?

Again...

Didn't Willis McGahee run for 1000 yards? And one year their FB was swithced to RB bceause of injuries and I think he ran for 1000, or close to it. McClain?

1, 000 yards is junk yardage any more for a RB. He rushed for 1300, scored 12 TDs on the ground alone, caught 76 balls for an additional 704 yards, and another 3 TDs. That's over 2, 000 yards of offense and 15 TDs. I'd hazard that the Ravens haven't had production like that in a while. Like I said, Rice IS their offense. Sure, without him, they have some offensive players, but he is what makes their offense tick.

 

[Duckjake]

Didn't Willis McGahee run for 1000 yards? And one year their FB was swithced to RB bceause of injuries and I think he ran for 1000, or close to it. McClain?

Correct. They're similar to the Chicago Bears who really can put anyone at RB and have them gain 1000 yards.

Curtis Enis, James Allen, Anthony Thomas, Raymont Harris, Rashaan Salaam, and Lewis Tillman all rushed for 899 yards or more in a season with Chicago

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Again...



1, 000 yards is junk yardage any more for a RB. He rushed for 1300, scored 12 TDs on the ground alone, caught 76 balls for an additional 704 yards, and another 3 TDs. That's over 2, 000 yards of offense and 15 TDs. I'd hazard that the Ravens haven't had production like that in a while. Like I said, Rice IS their offense. Sure, without him, they have some offensive players, but he is what makes their offense tick.

I wouldn't call it junk yardage. Only 15 guys rushed for 1000 yards and only 9 for more than 1100. That's not bad considering trhe amount of time teams pass the ball anymore. Rice's main value comes as a receiving threat, There aren't too many guys with his running/recieving combo. I've never said he shouldn't be paid. I said that I wouldn't give him a huge guarantee because the injury risk for RB's is far too great for that kind of commitment.

 

[JeffGollin]

I think a legitimate issue is being raised here -

Does a team put most of its RB dollars behind a single feature RB like Peterson, Rice, Jackson, Lynch etc.?

Or do they follow the Shanahan model of "up & out" (where you continually restock the bottom of the RB pantry with younger, cheaper RB's who can get the job done) and wish your starting RB's "Sayonara!" when they get too expensive?

What do you sacrifice with either strategy? If you go with the one Primo RB, there has to be durability risk. But if you go the "up & out" route, you may sacrifice great talent for safety-in-numbers - and risk building mediocrity into your running game.

Dunno the answer - you just have to hope your GM continually "gets it right." (I'm just glad we have R Williams along with Beanie and would not be opposed to drafting RB talent every couple of years to build depth at a position known for its frequency of injury).

 

[Stout]

I think a legitimate issue is being raised here -

Does a team put most of its RB dollars behind a single feature RB like Peterson, Rice, Jackson, Lynch etc.?

Or do they follow the Shanahan model of "up & out" (where you continually restock the bottom of the RB pantry with younger, cheaper RB's who can get the job done) and wish your starting RB's "Sayonara!" when they get too expensive?

What do you sacrifice with either strategy? If you go with the one Primo RB, there has to be durability risk. But if you go the "up & out" route, you may sacrifice great talent for safety-in-numbers - and risk building mediocrity into your running game.

Dunno the answer - you just have to hope your GM continually "gets it right." (I'm just glad we have R Williams along with Beanie and would not be opposed to drafting RB talent every couple of years to build depth at a position known for its frequency of injury).

I think the key point when you look at this issue--and you've nailed it, Jeff--is the teams offensive line. If you have a solid unit that's going to open holes no matter what, you can make that decision to go the Shanahan route. If you don't, the Shanahan route will blow up in your face. I don't know who they drafted, but the Ravens lost Grubbs in the offseason, and they already had a few questions up front. Add in that Rice is so much of their offense, in the running and passing game, and I don't see how they don't pay him to keep him long-term.

 

[jaguarpaw81]

Again...



1, 000 yards is junk yardage any more for a RB. He rushed for 1300, scored 12 TDs on the ground alone, caught 76 balls for an additional 704 yards, and another 3 TDs. That's over 2, 000 yards of offense and 15 TDs. I'd hazard that the Ravens haven't had production like that in a while. Like I said, Rice IS their offense. Sure, without him, they have some offensive players, but he is what makes their offense tick.

CJ and Peterson have both already proven to not be worth their contracts and you want to give an almost as good player who has TWICE the miles on him the same amount? I disagree. The Ravens have a great ground attack since Newsome took over; whether it's been Priest Holmes, Jamal Lewis, Chester Taylor, Willis McGahee, Ricky Williams or Ray Rice leading the way. They always have as strong of an O-line as there is in the league and get great blocking from their TE's and WR's. Rice is verrrrrrrry good, don't get me wrong. He dropped into the second round for one reason only though and that was because they ran hell out of him at Rutgers. Dude is a rb with a lot of miles; he is not getting a longterm big money deal.

 

[Stout]

CJ and Peterson have both already proven to not be worth their contracts and you want to give an almost as good player who has TWICE the miles on him the same amount? I disagree. The Ravens have a great ground attack since Newsome took over; whether it's been Priest Holmes, Jamal Lewis, Chester Taylor, Willis McGahee, Ricky Williams or Ray Rice leading the way. They always have as strong of an O-line as there is in the league and get great blocking from their TE's and WR's. Rice is verrrrrrrry good, don't get me wrong. He dropped into the second round for one reason only though and that was because they ran hell out of him at Rutgers. Dude is a rb with a lot of miles; he is not getting a longterm big money deal.

Excuse me? Yeah, you can say that Rice has more miles on him than CJ, but what planet have you been living on? AP has far, far more miles on him than Rice. That's just make believe info to try ad help your argument.

Rice isn't very good--he has been dominant. He has proven to be one of the best backs in the league. Has he been franchised? If so, he'll walk next season, as I believe you can only franchise a player once now with this new CBA (I may be wrong). And he'll get the big money elsewhere.

Again, Rice IS the offense. No RB has put up the kind of production he has in both facets of the game for the Ravens. Lewis may have come close, but he was nowhere near the receiving threat Rice is. They got rid of Holmes, who was that kind of guy, which made no sense.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Excuse me? Yeah, you can say that Rice has more miles on him than CJ, but what planet have you been living on? AP has far, far more miles on him than Rice. That's just make believe info to try ad help your argument.

Rice isn't very good--he has been dominant. He has proven to be one of the best backs in the league. Has he been franchised? If so, he'll walk next season, as I believe you can only franchise a player once now with this new CBA (I may be wrong). And he'll get the big money elsewhere.

Again, Rice IS the offense. No RB has put up the kind of production he has in both facets of the game for the Ravens. Lewis may have come close, but he was nowhere near the receiving threat Rice is. They got rid of Holmes, who was that kind of guy, which made no sense.

AP has 150 more touches than Rice but has been on the field for 300 less snaps as he wasn't typically on the field for the Vikings in 3rd down or passing situations until Chester Taylor left. Jamal Lewis was a better runner that Rice is during his prime. He ran for 2,000 yds on a team that literally did not have a single recieving threat beyond Todd Heap. Holmes was a 7th rounder/UDFA who came out of nowhere and Lewis was a top 5 pick. The Raven's weren't dumb for letting him walk, they had no choice. Very similar situation to the Chargers and Drew Brees, except Brees was the 32 overall pick and they gave up on him after a year.

 

[Bodha]

Ray Rice: 1364 yards rushing, 12 TD; 76 receptions, 704 yards, 3 TD

Rice isn't worth it?

Had it not been for injury, last season wouldve been AP's 5th consecutive 1300+ yard season.

Rays done it twice.

Im not big for breaking the bank on guys who have 1 or 2 good years. If he can do it again, then a case can be made.

Not to mention 1300 really ist that much. It just looks like alot by comparison with other RBs. Back when this was a less Pass-dependant league, 1300 was the avg for a RB in a season.

 

[Stout]

Had it not been for injury, last season wouldve been AP's 5th consecutive 1300+ yard season.

Rays done it twice.

Im not big for breaking the bank on guys who have 1 or 2 good years. If he can do it again, then a case can be made.

Not to mention 1300 really ist that much. It just looks like alot by comparison with other RBs. Back when this was a less Pass-dependant league, 1300 was the avg for a RB in a season.

Way to leave THIS out: 76 receptions, 704 yards, 3 TD

 

[Bodha]

Way to leave THIS out: 76 receptions, 704 yards, 3 TD

RBs are paid to run. If one of your best receivers is your RB, then you need to revamp your WR corps.

This isnt a strength of Rice, this is a weakness of Flacco and the WRs.


same can be said for guys like Tebow and Newton. Its awesome they can scramble, but they are QBs and are here to throw. Not run. Rice is here to run and 1300 isnt as impressive as you think.

 

[Duckjake]

RBs are paid to run. If one of your best receivers is your RB, then you need to revamp your WR corps.

This isnt a strength of Rice, this is a weakness of Flacco and the WRs.


same can be said for guys like Tebow and Newton. Its awesome they can scramble, but they are QBs and are here to throw. Not run. Rice is here to run and 1300 isnt as impressive as you think.

That's not always true. Teams use the outlet pass to the RB as part of their running game. Tim Hightower had 63 receptions for the Cardinals in 2009. We had Fitz, Boldin, and Breaston and a high powered offense. This goes all the way back to the 1980's and Bill Walsh when Roger Craig with the 49ers was getting 1000 yards rushing and catching 70 passes. The WRs on that team included guys named Jerry Rice and John Taylor. On the other hand you have a situation like we did with Larry Centers who caught 100 passes a year because of a weakness in our QBs and in some years WRs.

As for QBs people get the wrong idea about what teams want in a mobile QB. They want a guy who can move in the pocket to avoid the rush while still looking to throw not a guy who runs better than he throws. Guys like BenR and our own Double Deuce. What is going help Newton succeed is that he can do both.

One of Jake Plummers biggest problems was that early in his career he would duck his head when moving in the pocket. Later he stopped doing that and his numbers got better.

 

[JeffGollin]

Had it not been for injury, last season wouldve been AP's 5th consecutive 1300+ yard season. Rays done it twice. Im not big for breaking the bank on guys who have 1 or 2 good years. If he can do it again, then a case can be made...

Cases can be made for either (a) a single feature RB or (b) a RB by committee, but either is not without its own unique set of risks.

If your Big Dawg goes down, who'll replace him?

But, if you go the committee route, you'd better (as Stout has pointed out) have good run-blocking up front to open up holes for the "competent guys."

It also helps to have scouts and coaches with "the knack" - the ability to consistently pull late-round and UDFA running backs out of their butts.

The downside risk of that strategy is what I'd term the "Marcus Allen Phenominon" - Allen wasn't especially big or blessed with blinding speed, but he just seemed to have the knack for slicing through for an extra 3 or 4 yards and a nose for the end zone. The problem is - there are a lot of guys just like Allen but who are a half-step slower and not quite as fast or powerful. Stock your cupboard with those guys and you've got a whole lot of mediocre.

I do think that, when you have the opportunity to draft a BPA with AP's talent, you probably should leap on that puppy*. But, if you're going to go that route, you'd better pick up additional quality depth behind the golden boy.

* I didn't feel that way when we passed on Peterson (in part due to the injury risk) in favor of Levi. In retrospect, I was wrong.

 

[Stout]

RBs are paid to run. If one of your best receivers is your RB, then you need to revamp your WR corps.

This isnt a strength of Rice, this is a weakness of Flacco and the WRs.


same can be said for guys like Tebow and Newton. Its awesome they can scramble, but they are QBs and are here to throw. Not run. Rice is here to run and 1300 isnt as impressive as you think.

Duckjake did a good job of deconstructing your logic. I'll just say your logic makes no sense, and you only said it to help your argument. It is clearly a strength of Rice, and you saying it isn't merely proves that you have a bias against him. Catching out of the backfield and blocking is, in fact, part of a RBs duties. The funny thing is, you proved my point for me--he IS their offense, and so is even more valuable to the Ravens.

 

[52brandon]

RBs are paid to run. If one of your best receivers is your RB, then you need to revamp your WR corps.

This isnt a strength of Rice, this is a weakness of Flacco and the WRs.


same can be said for guys like Tebow and Newton. Its awesome they can scramble, but they are QBs and are here to throw. Not run. Rice is here to run and 1300 isnt as impressive as you think.

Every sport has evolved from the way things were traditionally done...

would you not say that a WR that can block is a better asset than one that can't?

 

[Bodha]

you only said it to help your argument.
It is clearly a strength of Rice, and you saying it isn't merely proves that you have a bias against him. Catching out of the backfield and blocking is, in fact, part of a RBs duties. The funny thing is, you proved my point for me--he IS their offense, and so is even more valuable to the Ravens.

This is the dumbest thing Ive ever seen posted on this site.

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Every sport has evolved from the way things were traditionally done...

would you not say that a WR that can block is a better asset than one that can't?

Blocking WRs isnt a new development. 4 Qbs throwing for over 5000 yards is. Theres no shortage of guys who can catch the ball in this league, as seen by a TE who nearly broke the TD record.

This is a passing league, and when you cant pass, you need a runner. Ravens have passing problems. Additionally, are they not a smash mouth running FB team? They say so themsevles. With that said, 1300 isnt impressive. AP puts up 1300 on a down year. AP is a HOF runner. Rice is not. Those who claim Rice deserves AP money say so only because he shoulders most of the Ravens offense. That doesnt increase his talent or value, it speaks to the broken Balitmore offense and QB.

 

[sportznutt]

This is the dumbest thing Ive ever seen posted on this site.

You must be registered for see images attach

Blocking WRs isnt a new development. 4 Qbs throwing for over 5000 yards is. Theres no shortage of guys who can catch the ball in this league, as seen by a TE who nearly broke the TD record.

This is a passing league, and when you cant pass, you need a runner. Ravens have passing problems. Additionally, are they not a smash mouth running FB team? They say so themsevles. With that said, 1300 isnt impressive. AP puts up 1300 on a down year. AP is a HOF runner. Rice is not. Those who claim Rice deserves AP money say so only because he shoulders most of the Ravens offense. That doesnt increase his talent or value, it speaks to the broken Balitmore offense and QB.

He was 2nd in the league last season in rushing yards. Therefore, outside of MJD and AP, you were not impressed with anyone? AP has had years of 1341, 1760, 1383, 1298 and 970. I'm guessing he's had down years all but one?

In the HISTORY of our franchise, we've only twice had a RB amass more than Ray Rice did last season......Otis Anderson in 1981 and 1979. Yet we're thinking that what Ray Rice did is nothing at all impressive......not to mention his 700+ receiving yards, which are more than anyone not named Larry Fitzgerald on this team.

 

[52brandon]

Blocking WRs isnt a new development. 4 Qbs throwing for over 5000 yards is. Theres no shortage of guys who can catch the ball in this league, as seen by a TE who nearly broke the TD record.

This is a passing league, and when you cant pass, you need a runner. Ravens have passing problems. Additionally, are they not a smash mouth running FB team? They say so themsevles. With that said, 1300 isnt impressive. AP puts up 1300 on a down year. AP is a HOF runner. Rice is not. Those who claim Rice deserves AP money say so only because he shoulders most of the Ravens offense. That doesnt increase his talent or value, it speaks to the broken Balitmore offense and QB.

it may very well speak to the broken Baltimore offense and QB. But it does also speak to his value to the team

 

[Stout]

He was 2nd in the league last season in rushing yards. Therefore, outside of MJD and AP, you were not impressed with anyone? AP has had years of 1341, 1760, 1383, 1298 and 970. I'm guessing he's had down years all but one?

In the HISTORY of our franchise, we've only twice had a RB amass more than Ray Rice did last season......Otis Anderson in 1981 and 1979. Yet we're thinking that what Ray Rice did is nothing at all impressive......not to mention his 700+ receiving yards, which are more than anyone not named Larry Fitzgerald on this team.

Thank you.

it may very well speak to the broken Baltimore offense and QB. But it does also speak to his value to the team

And thank you.

And thank you, Bodha, for posting a picture about yourself. Just because you want to ignore Rice's receiving yards and touchdowns, and pretend that catching the ball out of the backfield just isn't a RBs job and doesn't make him more valuable, doesn't mean it isn't a really stupid opinion.

 

[sportznutt]

The Ravens and franchise player Ray Rice beat the clock with a multi-year contract agreement ahead of Monday's deadline.

The Carroll County Times reports Rice is due to collect $40 million over five years, including $25 million the first two years and $17 million in 2012. With Joe Flacco and Ed Reed set to enter contract years, the Ravens have now freed up the franchise tag for 2013. Meanwhile, Rice's $24 million in guarantees trails only those of Adrian Peterson and Chris Johnson. As a smallish back with a heavy college workload and 400+ touches (including the playoffs) in each of the past three years, Rice did well to land the lucrative long-term deal at age 25.

rotoworld

Still didn't get the biggest money.