Realistic Cardinal Offseason Plan (Long Post)

[Crazy Canuck]

Nice write-up, K-9.

P.S. Not that it matters, but I believe Braham with Cinnci announced his retirement.

 

[Mitch]

Way to go out on a limb here K9...all you did was posts lists of free agents...and offered no sustained commitment on your part as to whom the Cardinals, IYO, should sign. All save S Ken Hamlin and RB T.J. Duckett...

Hamlin would be a nice addition, I agree. His addition could certainly prevent the worst thing that could happen to you and your ability to prognosticate: Aaron Francisco becoming the starting FS.

Duckett, for whatever reason, has been a classic underachiever...it would be better if the Cardinals signed a running back who can hit the hole with a burst, not a lumbering psuedo power back.

I wrote this post with a purpose, K9. How does it feel to take the time and effort to write a thoughtful, in-depth thread and have a poster like me or anyone else come on and rip it or one aspect of it apart in a few terse, mocking statements? It's demoralizing, isn't it.

it's one thing top respectfully disagree and offer a thoughtful rebuttal, but it's another to respond with the intent to mock the poster.

I actually think this is perhaps the best thread you have written...you did a good deal of homework and you laid out a thoughtful plan. Kudos! The board was strengthened because of this thread. I personally like the way you laid out the plan.

All I ask is that you show me and others due respect, whether you agree with the premise of a thread or not. Respectful rebuttals make this board as great as it is.

 

[Scot1]

I'm satisfied but not energized by a lot of K9's plan; the main part I disagree with is the CB 'realism'. Whether or not the coaches are happy to head into training camp with Green and Rolle as starters, I don't think we should be. The mistakes Green and Rolle made last season were, sure, partly a result of bad positioning by coaches, and partly weak pass rush, but a lot of their play (and the rationale for playing them off 10 yards) seemed to me to be bad judgment and (for Rolle) weak speed/skill. Maybe they'll improve, but the odds aren't good enough at the position that's one of our two main weaknesses.

The reason I'm not energized is that I'm simpleminded. No denying it. I think we were weakest at 3 positions: coach (fixed, I hope--?), OT, and CB. Fix one of the remaining problems, and with luck (no killer injuries) we're in the playoffs; fix both and we go deep in the play-offs, how deep depending mainly on game planning. I know BPA is wisest for teams with many weaknesses and to maintain strength, but I think we should turn over every stone to make sure OT and CB are definitely trustworthy in September. I think k9's plan needs to devote more effort and resources to ensuring those fixes--everything else is chocolate sauce--which I do not, let me emphasize, undervalue.

 

[kerouac9]

Canuck--Thanks for the note. I fixed my free agent list. Hopefully we can get Al Johnson, otherwise I don't think there's much of an upgrade at the center position available. I don't think this is a huge priority, though.

Mitch--Personally, I didn't feel "attacked." I think that if there's a legitimate argument about an assertion, than it should be questioned. If the poster doesn't appreciate the challenge, you have to wonder why they're making unsubstantiated assertions. If an assertion has merit, I'll honor it, as I have throughout this thread. A thoughtful rebuttal is "Jonathon Lewis didn't show anything last season; he barely played". The unfounded assertion is that Lewis is "sneaky good".

Scot--I think that the idea of free agency ought to be that the fans feel "satisfied but not energized." The Draft is what should energize fan bases and rosters. The thrill of new blood. Free Agent signings that are intended to boost interest generally lead to disappointment (as we learned with Freddie Jones, Duane Starks, Pete Kendall, Oliver Ross, Emmitt Smith, and for the most part Edgerrin James). Because the costs are so high, filling holes with well-evaluated players ought to come first.

For what it's worth, I think that an upgraded pass rush in the form of a healthy Kendrick Clancy, Bertrand Berry, and a couple of free agents/draft picks will make our cornerbacks look much, much better. You have to look no farther that last year's Super Bowl to see that average corners can look like All-Pros if they play behind a fierce pass rush.

 

[Mitch]

Canuck--Thanks for the note. I fixed my free agent list. Hopefully we can get Al Johnson, otherwise I don't think there's much of an upgrade at the center position available. I don't think this is a huge priority, though.

Mitch--Personally, I didn't feel "attacked." I think that if there's a legitimate argument about an assertion, than it should be questioned. If the poster doesn't appreciate the challenge, you have to wonder why they're making unsubstantiated assertions. If an assertion has merit, I'll honor it, as I have throughout this thread. A thoughtful rebuttal is "Jonathon Lewis didn't show anything last season; he barely played". The unfounded assertion is that Lewis is "sneaky good".

Scot--I think that the idea of free agency ought to be that the fans feel "satisfied but not energized." The Draft is what should energize fan bases and rosters. The thrill of new blood. Free Agent signings that are intended to boost interest generally lead to disappointment (as we learned with Freddie Jones, Duane Starks, Pete Kendall, Oliver Ross, Emmitt Smith, and for the most part Edgerrin James). Because the costs are so high, filling holes with well-evaluated players ought to come first.

For what it's worth, I think that an upgraded pass rush in the form of a healthy Kendrick Clancy, Bertrand Berry, and a couple of free agents/draft picks will make our cornerbacks look much, much better. You have to look no farther that last year's Super Bowl to see that average corners can look like All-Pros if they play behind a fierce pass rush.

I watched Lewis in college (many, many times)...you apparently didn't...which is why you can't form opinions on the young players on the roster, other than if I like them, you certainly don't.

 

[kerouac9]

I watched Lewis in college (many, many times)...you apparently didn't...which is why you can't form opinions on the young players on the roster, other than if I like them, you certainly don't.

What does his college play have to do with anything? He's not in college anymore. What his NFL production has been is 4 tackles in 9 games. Maybe he was "sneaky good" in college, but tons of players were really good in college, like Eric Crouch, and then stunk it up in the NFL. That's how it happens.

It's a man's league.

 

[spanky1]

I believe that Jonathon Lewis will be a good one.....a la Kendrick Clancy who grew into being a solid player after his third year or so. I think we are set for next year at DT and wouldn't take Alan Branch at #5.

This year is a pretty good one for DE and I think three will go in round 1.....Adams, Anderson and Carriker.....and I will make a final decision after the combine as to which of Adams vs Anderson I'd take at #5.

Pashos is a target at RT that I'd load the gun up for.....alot like Berry was in his last year with Denver in terms of being ready for "prime time".

I agree with others about Ken Hamlin at FS....he'd be a great snag. And I really like Clements at CB even if we'd have to break the bank.

And I want to see Gorin (LT) more to determine if he has any value....I think he does.

Joe Staley (OT) will be available in round 2 where we pick IMO.

Give me Pashos, Hamlin and Clements in FA and I'll be thrilled and would consider it a successful off season both coaching and player wise.

 

[Mitch]

I believe that Jonathon Lewis will be a good one.....a la Kendrick Clancy who grew into being a solid player after his third year or so. I think we are set for next year at DT and wouldn't take Alan Branch at #5.

This year is a pretty good one for DE and I think three will go in round 1.....Adams, Anderson and Carriker.....and I will make a final decision after the combine as to which of Adams vs Anderson I'd take at #5.

Pashos is a target at RT that I'd load the gun up for.....alot like Berry was in his last year with Denver in terms of being ready for "prime time".

I agree with others about Ken Hamlin at FS....he'd be a great snag. And I really like Clements at CB even if we'd have to break the bank.

And I want to see Gorin (LT) more to determine if he has any value....I think he does.

Joe Staley (OT) will be available in round 2 where we pick IMO.

Give me Pashos, Hamlin and Clements in FA and I'll be thrilled and would consider it a successful off season both coaching and player wise.

I agree, Spanky...add Eric Steinbach to that mix and I would be delirious...the two questions I have: (1) if Joe Thomas slides to #5, we still take him regardless of the Pashos signing, right? I think we do; (2) is DT Alan Branch a better prospect than Adams or Anderson? I believe he is...and if we really need a DE we can hope that Anthony Spencer, Tim Crowder or Charles Johnson is available at #38.

 

[vinnymac]

[/Give me Pashos, Hamlin and Clements in FA and I'll be thrilled and would consider it a successful off season both coaching and player wise.QUOTE]

It would be a succesful free agentcy. The Cardinals also need to get a linebacker and a runningback. The cardinals also feel like they need to up grade the te position.

Sean Phillips just got a new 6 year contract according to nfl network. So he is out of the picture.

 

[Scot1]

Scot--I think that the idea of free agency ought to be that the fans feel "satisfied but not energized." The Draft is what should energize fan bases and rosters. The thrill of new blood. Free Agent signings that are intended to boost interest generally lead to disappointment (as we learned with Freddie Jones, Duane Starks, Pete Kendall, Oliver Ross, Emmitt Smith, and for the most part Edgerrin James). Because the costs are so high, filling holes with well-evaluated players ought to come first.

K9, I can't see why you say this. Yes, premium FAs can lead to disappointment, just like premium draft picks (surely a list is not needed). I felt much more certain and excited we had gotten a good one with James than with Leinert, who could've been another Eli Manning or even Leaf--and still could be. Yes, James had a mediocre-to-poor year, thanks largely to the incredibly bad OL--but I know he can succeed in the NFL. Every draft pick is much more a crap shoot than a FA is. You are probably right that the Draft really does excite more, but a lot of that excitement is pie-in-the-sky foolishness, as our successive 'A' draft ratings followed by F seasons show.

Also, I know you're partly right about DLs leading to better CB performance, but that's chancy. Even a great DL disrupts only 1/3 to 1/2 of the pass plays, and a good OL can affect that fraction--and then you've the DBs able to lose a game with a misplayed pass or two. I'd take Champ Bailey over Simeon Rice any day--maybe not a fair comparison.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

What does his college play have to do with anything? He's not in college anymore. What his NFL production has been is 4 tackles in 9 games. Maybe he was "sneaky good" in college, but tons of players were really good in college, like Eric Crouch, and then stunk it up in the NFL. That's how it happens.

It's a man's league.

This is a great comment.

I can't stand we people tout college players. "Well he was good in college" is a moot point.

Take Adrian Peterson for example. I think this kid is WAAAAAY overhyped. I have seen him play, and seen many NFL shows breaking his skills down. What bothers me about this kid is a lot of his big runs come from situations that just will not happen in the pros.

He seems to be provided holes that are way bigger then anything in the pros, and he gets hit way too much around the line of scrimmage. Peterson is not going to break an NFL DT's tackle the way he did in college.

The same can be said about Paul Pualusaliaski LB from Penn State. He might be a great college player but I don't think he can push his body to compete in the NFL.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Jonathon Lewis, regardless of how good he could be, will be gone by the end of training camp.

Whiz has stated he is looking to build a larger more physical defensive line.

We already have 2 "small" DT's on this team in Dockett and Clancy. Lewis will be the odd man out.

Because Spongebob Squareback fills the requirement of larger and more physical he will be retained as well.

UNLESS they try to have Dockett drop down to about 280 and play end....which is what I think the Cardinals should do.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

By the way

JMHO:

Napoleon Harris = Orlando Huff

 

[SuperSpck]

Eh, as far as overhyping goes, I though Bush was overhyped last year.

So far I seem wrong. I think that caution goes a long way during draft time but because there is no sure thing the best we can hope for is that the new coaching staff knows what they are doing.

 

[JeffGollin]

I believe that Jonathon Lewis will be a good one.....
He wasn't strong or disruptive enough to compete for a starting spot in his rookie year, but on paper certainly has the potential. But that's all it is - potential.

Key to Lewis' success, in my opinion will depend on how much stronger he gets from his off-season strength/conditioning program and how much he improves during the preseason under the wing of his new defensive line coach.

He's too much of a question-mark at this point on which to base a trade, draft strategy or FA decision.

But I've always liked him, and he is supposed to have the kind of work-ethic conducive to his making major strides in the off and preseason.

 

[BigRedMO]

i agree the cardinals need to spring into action like they did last season.

At the runningback position the cardinals need to eithier sign micheal turner, T.J. Duckett, or draft Micheal Bush in the second round.

At linebacker the cardinals need to get Kiwika Mitchell for linebacker. All he did when i watched him was make plays for the chiefs.

Springing into action like last year? I recall the signing of one free agent with potential for immediate impact and a lot of cap money left sitting on the table.

 

[Zeno]

Jonathon Lewis, regardless of how good he could be, will be gone by the end of training camp.

Whiz has stated he is looking to build a larger more physical defensive line.

We already have 2 "small" DT's on this team in Dockett and Clancy. Lewis will be the odd man out.

Because Spongebob Squareback fills the requirement of larger and more physical he will be retained as well.

UNLESS they try to have Dockett drop down to about 280 and play end....which is what I think the Cardinals should do.

Whisenhunt never said he wanted a larger DLine, he said he wanted a physical defense but I never saw any quote or article saying he wanted a "larger" DLine. Besides its kinda strange when guys who weigh 312, as Lewis is listed, isn't considered large enough--especially when you consider he is the second heaviest DT on the team.

Who knows for sure on how well he develops but I have a feeling he'll be a starter in a couple of seasons and playing well.

 

[kerouac9]

Kelsay's off the market, as well! Yay! I'm getting happy that we saved all this money!

 

[BACH]

Kelsay's off the market, as well! Yay! I'm getting happy that we saved all this money!

Didn't you just declare yourself a non-Graves basher in another thread?

Please explain how this is not a negative comment directly towards Graves!

Your comment doesn't even make sense, so IMO there really can't be any other agenda for you than taking a swing at Graves.

I mean, DE is not a need for us. We could use a younger DE, but we're looking at Adams or Anderson at #5, so why sign Kelsey? You're basicly the driver of Adams bandwagon on the board, so why are you complaining about Kelsey resigning with the Bills?

 

[vinnymac]

Springing into action like last year? I recall the signing of one free agent with potential for immediate impact and a lot of cap money left sitting on the table.

they signed 3 free agents in the first day. Edgerrin James being the biggest in franchise history.

 

[kerouac9]

Updated to include Joey Porter. If it came right down to it, I think I'd still rather have Napoleon Harris. Two years younger with his best football still ahead of him and much more experience in a 4-3 defense.

 

[kerouac9]

I didn't want or expect the Cards to sign Daniel Graham, but another guy is off the list.

 

[Chopper0080]

Signing Harris would be a boom or bust move. He has played constantly out of position in Oakland and Minnesota despite his athletic ability. In order for him to have an impact we would need our linebacker coach to really turn his head around as wll as the light in his head to turn on. Harris and Porter are kind of a wash in my opinion. One has great athleticsm and no head for the game and the other is past his prime and is a bit of a misfit for a 4-3 system.