Reality Check?

[BuddyFranklin]

Its Preseaon yes, but i've been wanting to say a couple of things...

People say we are a DEEP team. Are we? My opnion is we are far from. For those saying we are, please explain who we have on our bench that makes us so deep?

JuJones isn't much chop. Banks is very unproven in this system. We have NO height. KT and Amare are it... unless you actually think Pat and Marks will contribute anything. That isn't deep. James Jones... well he's tall and can sometimes hit a jumper... and then there's Barbs the inconsistent in-between.

Steve Nash is basically player/coach imo. No offense to Mike D. He is a brilliant player manager but as far as coaching goes, he is middle of the pack sort of material, who relies solely on Steve Nash.

I believe we can win 50+plus games if healthy and if Amare Stoudemire if given the ball in position even though Mike D wants to avoid this as it will slow our fast break game down. The league is catching up with how we play. This season is no gimme as some think. I AM postive about this season but am tired of reading hyped unrealistic posts about how great we are after one win and how bad we are after one loss.

Great forum by the way.

 

[Mainstreet]

Good post Buddy.

I think the Suns are going to have some chemistry problems early. I'm not totally sure why. My gut feeling is that the Suns are having trouble getting Amare acclimated to their current style. Amare, although seemingly healthy, does not seem to be scoring or clicking with the team as yet. Also Banks and Jumaine may need to take some time to feel comfortable.

IMO, the Suns are 10 deep, but they could have used the services of another big man (too bad the Suns couldn't get Ely) until Amare gets untracked and another shooter. I think the Suns are going to miss Eddie House's shooting early in the year and TT's contribution as well. These two players brought some explosiveness to the Suns offense. I haven't seen this explosiveness and shooting as yet from this team.

I'm thinking D'Antoni will get the Suns untracked, but I believe there may be some kinks.

 

[Mainstreet]

By the way Buddy. If you are new to this forum... welcome.

 

[sunsfn]

Jumaine Jones has had an ankle problem but I think he will be fine.

James Jones will be fine if he is injury free.

I am not a fan of Banks and he is going to have to play here a while to fit in, somewhat like Bell last year. What bothers me is that Ainge did not even offer him the option and traded him away. Maybe Ainge made a mistake, time will tell.

Amare needs to play with Nash, not with Banks to play well. I think that will happen when the season starts.

 

[slinslin]

I think you are in need for a reality check if your opinion is that the suns CAN win 50+ wins if healthy. It's a given they will around 60 if they are healthy.

 

[Espo]

Jumaine Jones has had an ankle problem but I think he will be fine.

James Jones will be fine if he is unjury free.

I am not a fan of Banks and he is going to have to play here a while to fit in, somewhat like Bell last year. What bothers me is that Ainge did not even offer him the option and traded him away. Maybe Ainge made a mistake, time will tell.

Amare needs to play with Nash, not with Banks to play well. I think that will happen when the season starts.

Ok lets not judge Banks on the fact that Ainge let him go. If you look at the moves Ainge has made with Boston he has proven he doesn't know what the hell he is doing and that his "brain typing" is a bunch of crap, unless the type of brain he was looking for was that of the can't win in the NBA variety. The Suns are basically the same team as last year but with the additions of an actual back up point guard, granted it may take him some time to adjust to the suns, and Jumaine Jones who can do what TT did but start earlier in the season. Chemistry may be a problem but I think that will only be in the first part of the season. Preseason is preseason. I don't forsee any major problem with this team during the regular season. Are they the deepest team in the league? No, but they are much deeper than they have been in the past two seasons and the past two years they have made it to the Western Conference finals. This team is probably the closest to a complete team that the Suns have had in a long time.

 

[BuddyFranklin]

Thanks for your contribution Slin.

Mainstreet, i think your spot on about us missing House's explosive scoring. He was sensational in the early parts of last season and won at least a few games off his own hot shooting.

Espo, I agree with your comments about Ainge and his past dealings but i have to go against you on the JuJones TT comparison... which a lot of people are making rather nonchalant.

IMO, JuJones will not do what TT did. He's a completely different player than TT.
- TT could create his own shot. JuJones can't.
- TT is ALOT stronger than JuJones and can post up. JuJones can't.
- JuJones has a decent last year on a terrible Bobcats team. If you were comparing JuJones to say someone like Devon George than I’m 100% with you but I don't really rate him at this stage. He'll be a nice guy who'll run the lanes and spot up but i don't think he'll be huge surprise. I just think TT provided far greater diversity. Time will tell though.

 

[Espo]

Thanks for your contribution Slin.

Mainstreet, i think your spot on about us missing House's explosive scoring. He was sensational in the early parts of last season and won at least a few games off his own hot shooting.

Espo, I agree with your comments about Ainge and his past dealings but i have to go against you on the JuJones TT comparison... which a lot of people are making rather nonchalant.

IMO, JuJones will not do what TT did. He's a completely different player than TT.
- TT could create his own shot. JuJones can't.
- TT is ALOT stronger than JuJones and can post up. JuJones can't.
- JuJones has a decent last year on a terrible Bobcats team. If you were comparing JuJones to say someone like Devon George than I’m 100% with you but I don't really rate him at this stage. He'll be a nice guy who'll run the lanes and spot up but i don't think he'll be huge surprise. I just think TT provided far greater diversity. Time will tell though.

I can agree with your assessment of JuJones. I think he can contribute off the bench like TT but maybe not in the same ways that TT did. The thing about the Eddie House stuff is that he was a none factor after about January last season. I think that the bench of this team will surprise people in a good way. The thing that I don't like and that you mentioned is that Amare and KT are the only height on this team but the Suns were "ok" without them both in their playoff run. I think if one of the two can stay healthy then they will be alright. This team is built to run and gun while playing better defense than in the past two seasons. This team is gonna take a little while to gel but in the end i think it will be worth the wait.
Also Welcome to the board if you are new Buddy. Very solid well thought out take.

 

[Chaplin]

Thanks for your contribution Slin.

Mainstreet, i think your spot on about us missing House's explosive scoring. He was sensational in the early parts of last season and won at least a few games off his own hot shooting.

Espo, I agree with your comments about Ainge and his past dealings but i have to go against you on the JuJones TT comparison... which a lot of people are making rather nonchalant.

IMO, JuJones will not do what TT did. He's a completely different player than TT.
- TT could create his own shot. JuJones can't.
- TT is ALOT stronger than JuJones and can post up. JuJones can't.
- JuJones has a decent last year on a terrible Bobcats team. If you were comparing JuJones to say someone like Devon George than I’m 100% with you but I don't really rate him at this stage. He'll be a nice guy who'll run the lanes and spot up but i don't think he'll be huge surprise. I just think TT provided far greater diversity. Time will tell though.

I think you're overrating Tim Thomas a bit. Sure, he stepped up in the playoffs, but his contributions were magnified because of injuries to Amare and KT. Defensively, we were worse with TT. Not just a little worse--a LOT worse. With KT, I firmly believe we wouldn't have as hard a time with the Lakers as we did. The Clippers are a different story, but the Lakers definitely took us to the brink with Tim Thomas as a main big man (Boris notwithstanding). You say that Tim Thomas provided more diversity than Jumaine Jones. That is probably true, but if you think about it, that's a pretty poor statement against Tim Thomas. His game was far from diverse.

Do I think Jumaine Jones will take TT's place? No, of course not. But the combination of a healthy James Jones and Jumaine Jones puts them pretty close.

 

[Errntknght]

For Pete's sake, Banks has already shown he could play since Ainge traded him. (Actually, Ainge trading someone away is a bit of a plus, in my book.) Whether or not Banks proves to be a good backup PG under D'Antoni is somewhat up in the air, however. Based on history, it's got to be one of the least enviable roles a player can have in the league. Mike hasn't been able to get Barbosa or House to play well in it and he summarily discarded Andre Barrett and Smush Parker.

I won't be greatly surprised if I spend the whole season shaking my head in wonder at the way D'A is running Nash into the ground again while Marcus lounges on the bench. Brilliant the man may be at some aspects of the game but he's been a nitwit when it comes to handling his backup PGs.

I'm a little bit in doubt that he's handling Amare well, too. Something sure seems amiss and maybe it's all on Amare but maybe its not. Granted the coach is in a tough spot on this one.

I don't think there's any problem with James Jones. He did the right work over the summer and his attitude is first rate. He's got to keep his shooting touch if he is going to be a very positive force but even its not quite there he isn't going to hurt the team. I do think he has one thing wrong with his thinking - he seems to believe that he has to improve his one on one offensive game but I believe he should be focussing on his off ball movement first. Learning to take someone off the dribble is a very iffy thing for him but learning to move well off the ball is a piece of cake for someone with his brains.

 

[BuddyFranklin]

Guys, you make very solid points.

Espo, i agree without KT and Amare we went well in the playoffs, i think in that, TT was huge in their absense and he will be missed, therefore those two, in KT and Amare staying healthy is extremely important (i know, i'm noting telling anyone anything new) because beyond them we only have Diaw and Marion who are big and can play decent minutes. I suppose what i'm saying is that i hope we can secure another servicable tall in the coming months. KT is almost 100years old and his body holding up is questionable in this system.

Hey Chap, yes i'm probably pumping TT's tyre's up too much but i think he was the perfect catch for us mid season and provided us with a Joe Johnson type of offensive arsenal (minus the passing). When i say diverse i really mean offensively because he was pretty good. I do agree a healthy JR Jones compined with JuJones will probably provide something but they seem awfully similar sort of players and haven't proved a great deal to me yet.

 

[BuddyFranklin]

Preseason or not this early form is both worrying and disappointing.

 

[Espo]

You have to be encouraged by the fact that Amare and KT are both having solid games tonight and Marion is being Marion. The thing that i don't like at this point is the fact that Raja and Nash have combined for a 3-for-14 effort from behind the arch .

 

[Cheesebeef]

Marcus Banks has me a little worried, but it's early. I don't expect to get a handle on this team until at least January.

 

[BuddyFranklin]

yeah there are SOME encouraging signs but still, we are playing like garbage. The new guys have been disappointing, the bench as a whole are playing terrible and no one can hit anything beyond the arc.

The preseason excuse is over.

 

[playstation]

i think the reality check is not based on reality

structurally, we're fine. we have tremendous talent, and there is no internal strife.

we've got 2 issues:

-we are shooting the ball horrendously.
-we don't know how to play together as a team (ie the sum of the parts is greater than the whole)

if these issues hang around into 2007, that's a problem, but i just don't see a reason to worry about things that can be fixed so easily.

right now there are plenty of question marks, but look at past performance and you'll notice that eventually each player has to get close to that level. everyone can't just keep playing 2 standard deviations below the mean, won't happen, nash won't allow it.

quick thought about the ball: if the feel of the ball is something that affects you so much that you shoot dramatically more poorly for an entire year, something is wrong between your ears. for all his faults, give kobe bryant a rolled up sock, and he'll put it in the hole (basketball, not female lol).

 

[nowagimp]

yeah there are SOME encouraging signs but still, we are playing like garbage. The new guys have been disappointing, the bench as a whole are playing terrible and no one can hit anything beyond the arc.

The preseason excuse is over.

Well if preseason basketball has you disappointed, just dont watch, its basically garbage time. All the games out there are garbage in the preseason. San Antonio is 1-3, they look like crap, cleveland is 1-5, and sacramento is 4-1, while Golden state is 5-0 with 6-0 Toronto. Perhaps we could trade San Francisco franchises and get the undefeated warriors, I'll bet they'd do it. The preseason is about organizing the teams assets and trying to execute a plan. The suns have some major(Banks, Amare) pieces to incorporate into the team.

Last year, the suns were in a daze for the first 15 games, then everything started clicking and they finished 54-28 despite loosing their defense and KT in January. This year could be similar with a number of new faces in the rotation.

The encouraging thing is that KT looks spry and Amare will have an impact. You add those guys, Banks and Jermaine Jones but subtract TT, House. So basically you give up some outside shooting for some speed(banks, jones, amare(?)) ballhandling, and much better defense. Are the suns deep? Well let me see: KT, Amare, Marion, Diaw, Bell, Nash, Barbosa, JR, JUJ, Banks all have scored at a rate of 9ppg in the last two years or have a career average of 9+ppg. Add pike and its eleven guys on the roster who know how to score int he NBA. I think with improved Defense AND Offense they are going to be a handful.

 

[Mainstreet]

Just a thought as I really have nothing to base it upon.

I'm wondering if Diaw will be as aggressive as last year when Amare is in the same lineup. I tend to think, personality wise, Diaw would defer to Amare inside. This might be fine if Amare is playing well, however, Diaw learned to be more aggressive taking the ball to the basket last season. I would sure hate to lose this part of Diaw's game. However, some time during the season they are going to need to play together even if they do not start together.

 

[nowagimp]

quick thought about the ball: if the feel of the ball is something that affects you so much that you shoot dramatically more poorly for an entire year, something is wrong between your ears. for all his faults, give kobe bryant a rolled up sock, and he'll put it in the hole (basketball, not female lol).

A slippery(when wet) ball is not a headgame, just try to catch a wet rubber ball passed at speed through the air or a bounce pass and shoot it quickly(sound familiar?). Or maybe a wet ball could be difficult to handle when performing or recieving one handed wrap around passes or on fast breaks where the ball changes hands alot. But your quick thought was accurate, Kobe will find the hole, and he wont be worrying too much about passing the ball. He'll wind the clock down get a good grip on the ball and shoot it.

 

[Mainstreet]

Well if preseason basketball has you disappointed, just dont watch, its basically garbage time. All the games out there are garbage in the preseason. San Antonio is 1-3, they look like crap, cleveland is 1-5, and sacramento is 4-1, while Golden state is 5-0 with 6-0 Toronto. Perhaps we could trade San Francisco franchises and get the undefeated warriors, I'll bet they'd do it. The preseason is about organizing the teams assets and trying to execute a plan. The suns have some major(Banks, Amare) pieces to incorporate into the team.

Last year, the suns were in a daze for the first 15 games, then everything started clicking and they finished 54-28 despite loosing their defense and KT in January. This year could be similar with a number of new faces in the rotation.

The encouraging thing is that KT looks spry and Amare will have an impact. You add those guys, Banks and Jermaine Jones but subtract TT, House. So basically you give up some outside shooting for some speed(banks, jones, amare(?)) ballhandling, and much better defense. Are the suns deep? Well let me see: KT, Amare, Marion, Diaw, Bell, Nash, Barbosa, JR, JUJ, Banks all have scored at a rate of 9ppg in the last two years or have a career average of 9+ppg. Add pike and its eleven guys on the roster who know how to score int he NBA. I think with improved Defense AND Offense they are going to be a handful.

I like your assessment, however, I still wish the Suns had one more big body inside and I'm not taking about Marks or Burke. I still see Brand, Odom and even Dirk working the Suns over inside last season... and then there is always Tim Duncan as well. Maybe this will not be a problem if the Suns manage to stay healthy, but I still worry.

 

[pokerface]

I say bring Amare off the bench during the early part of the season. The team is probably more gelled without him and we should limit his minutes anyway.

When KT was a starter this team rocked on offense AND defense.

 

[boisesuns]

I wonder if Amare will actualy slow down the team since we aren't used to him fitting into our offense.

They way we can play with our running style, we almost need Amare to play some defense and fill the lane on some breaks instead of trying to change our system to get him the ball all the time. I think to try and go to Amare every time down the court, will actually hurt the teams ball movement. It will be interesting to see how everything comes together.

 

[Mainstreet]

I wonder if Amare will actualy slow down the team since we aren't used to him fitting into our offense.

They way we can play with our running style, we almost need Amare to play some defense and fill the lane on some breaks instead of trying to change our system to get him the ball all the time. I think to try and go to Amare every time down the court, will actually hurt the teams ball movement. It will be interesting to see how everything comes together.

I share your concern. My first thought was that a team can always utilize the skills of a great player. However, this is not always the case with team chemistry. This is probably a bad analogy but Marbury used to need to have the ball in his hands to be effective. This is my concern as well with Amare.

Overall I guess it's a good problem to have considering the Suns did not even have Amare last season. I guess only time will tell. It's almost like the Suns may have to choose between two styles of play right now... play like last season or feed the ball down low to Amare. Here's hoping these two styles merge seamlessly.

 

[Mainstreet]

I say bring Amare off the bench during the early part of the season. The team is probably more gelled without him and we should limit his minutes anyway.

When KT was a starter this team rocked on offense AND defense.

It sounds like your take is probably correct. However, I wonder if this is what Amare wants?

IMO, D'Antoni wants to play like last year's team as much as possible.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It sounds like your take is probably correct. However, I wonder if this is what Amare wants?

IMO, D'Antoni wants to play like last year's team as much as possible.

Amare isn't the coach and he isn't the owner. We have him locked up here and his paycheck is in our hands. If he doesn't want to do it, we can trade him to the Clips or something.

Not trying to be harsh, its just the reality of the situation right now. Amare understands this too. He's actually seemed to take the heat from DAntoni pretty well. We haven't heard much griping from him in the press.