Redo 2015 Draft- How high would Booker go?

slinslin

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I am thinking #4

1. Towns
2. Porzingis
3. Okafor
4. Booker
5. Portis
6. Russell
7. Turner
8. Winslow
9. Payne
10. Johnson

Honerable Mentions -> Mudiay, Hezonja, Nance, Hollis-Jefferson, WCS
 
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Catlover

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I am thinking #4

1. Towns
2. Porzingis
3. Okafor
4. Booker
5. Portis
6. Russell
7. Turner
8. Winslow
9. Payne
10. Johnson

Honerable Mentions -> Mudiay, Hezonja, Nance, Hollis-Jefferson, WCS

I think most teams would have Portis above Booker and Okafor.
 

Chris_Sanders

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I am thinking #4

1. Towns
2. Porzingis
3. Okafor
4. Booker
5. Portis
6. Russell
7. Turner
8. Winslow
9. Payne
10. Johnson

Honerable Mentions -> Mudiay, Hezonja, Nance, Hollis-Jefferson, WCS

It's definitely top 5. This is why I was so excited to get him where we did.
 

Phrazbit

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Yep, given our draft slots we've done very well in the draft the last few years. That, and his ability to extract value from some rough trade situations, is why we should not dump McD. His roster construction has something to be desired but that can evolve, while his eye for talent and negotiating skills, IMO are very good.
 

3rdside

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Yep, given our draft slots we've done very well in the draft the last few years. That, and his ability to extract value from some rough trade situations, is why we should not dump McD. His roster construction has something to be desired but that can evolve, while his eye for talent and negotiating skills, IMO are very good.


From the impact of IT to now Morris, his evolution is non-existent to date. I think you either get it or you don't, and I don't think he does.

Talent - who, knight? Bledsoe?

Pay his drafting, but that is all.


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3rdside

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I just don't see an oft injured, undersized guard with a penchant for telegraphed turnovers taking us anywhere. At least not along side knight. There seemed to be something there with Dragic but we saw how that ended.


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Phrazbit

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I just don't see and oft injured, undersized guard with a penchant for telegraphed turnovers taking us anywhere. At least not along side knight. There seemed to be something there with Dragic but we saw how that ended.


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He got two unprotected picks for Dragic despite being in a terrible negotiating position, and you've got to have quite a bit of bias to not understand that the Bledsoe trade was absolute larceny. Even with his knee injury we could ship him off for some premium value. A guy who efficiently scores 20 a game and is among the best defenders at his position carries enormous worth.
 

3rdside

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Counterbalanced by the probable knight / lakers pick fiasco.

It seems to be the MO of this guy - some good / great moves, some bad / awful moves, all underpinned by his apparent fatal flaw - the inability to recognise the importance of team chemistry (player synergy and compatibility, roster continuity, leadership, questionable character avoidance / retention etc) on team success.




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3rdside

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And even if he starts to recognise it, actions to date suggest he'll be an amateur, at best, at doing much about it.


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Phrazbit

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There is no telling how the Knight/Laker pick thing is going to play out yet, as it stands its very likely the Lakers are going to retain the pick another year and then who knows where it falls next season. Outside of that move's potential to be bad its really hard to claim any of his moves have been "awful".

I think our rotations have been awful, but that is on the coach. I honestly believe if Bledsoe hadn't been hurt and if Hornacek didn't have his bizzare infatuation with playing some of our worst guys big minutes and in key situations that the team would be in a playoff position right now. Right up until Bledsoe's injury you could easily pin the heavy majority of our loses on coaching, because when you're in a game and often leading, only to have it fall apart in the final few minutes that is not a talent problem, its a coaching problem. When that happens repeatedly... and you lose your best player on top of it, things go off the rails, and they have.

But, all in all the worst thing to happen to this team was the fluke 48 win season. It was a young team that was not supposed to compete, was not built with the intention to compete, but it played way over its head and put the front office in a bind because its hard to justify blowing up a team of young players that just won 48 games but how much higher was the ceiling of that team?

Its easy to say now that they should have blown it up but I cannot imagine the apocalypse among the fan base if they'd shipped off Dragic right after that campaign.

McD has a good eye for talent, he is a shrewd negotiator in trades, there are a lot of flat out idiotic GMs out there (we had one prior to McD). We've got one with some skill whom there is no reason to suspect its impossible for him to adjust to the current situation.
 

JCSunsfan

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There is no telling how the Knight/Laker pick thing is going to play out yet, as it stands its very likely the Lakers are going to retain the pick another year and then who knows where it falls next season. Outside of that move's potential to be bad its really hard to claim any of his moves have been "awful".

I think our rotations have been awful, but that is on the coach. I honestly believe if Bledsoe hadn't been hurt and if Hornacek didn't have his bizzare infatuation with playing some of our worst guys big minutes and in key situations that the team would be in a playoff position right now. Right up until Bledsoe's injury you could easily pin the heavy majority of our loses on coaching, because when you're in a game and often leading, only to have it fall apart in the final few minutes that is not a talent problem, its a coaching problem. When that happens repeatedly... and you lose your best player on top of it, things go off the rails, and they have.

But, all in all the worst thing to happen to this team was the fluke 48 win season. It was a young team that was not supposed to compete, was not built with the intention to compete, but it played way over its head and put the front office in a bind because its hard to justify blowing up a team of young players that just won 48 games but how much higher was the ceiling of that team?

Its easy to say now that they should have blown it up but I cannot imagine the apocalypse among the fan base if they'd shipped off Dragic right after that campaign.

McD has a good eye for talent, he is a shrewd negotiator in trades, there are a lot of flat out idiotic GMs out there (we had one prior to McD). We've got one with some skill whom there is no reason to suspect its impossible for him to adjust to the current situation.


He has done well so far. His errors have been the IT and Kieff situations. The IT signing was universally lauded at the time and most Suns fans were absolutely giddy that we were in the hunt for Aldridge in mid June.

If Sarver fires McD is is a real fool.
 

Chaplin

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I just don't see an oft injured, undersized guard with a penchant for telegraphed turnovers taking us anywhere. At least not along side knight. There seemed to be something there with Dragic but we saw how that ended.


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Are you saying Dragic is a better player than Bledsoe? Because that is simply not true.
 

3rdside

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There is no telling how the Knight/Laker pick thing is going to play out yet, as it stands its very likely the Lakers are going to retain the pick another year and then who knows where it falls next season.

I'm more concerned with what Knight is more than anything else - not bad, definitely flawed. He is young of course, his stats are good and with a better system maybe he turns out okay, so fiasco might be too strong a word. But with Deng and Rondo haunting us, are any of us sitting comfortable with this wait-and-see situation?

Outside of that move's potential to be bad its really hard to claim any of his moves have been "awful".

IT was pretty awful - not just the trade to get rid of him; should have got more - but the wholly unnecessary move to acquire him in the first place. Winning culture - meet blender.

I think our rotations have been awful, but that is on the coach. I honestly believe if Bledsoe hadn't been hurt and if Hornacek didn't have his bizzare infatuation with playing some of our worst guys big minutes and in key situations that the team would be in a playoff position right now.

If McD had placed greater emphasis on the Dragic / Frye 2 man game, and focussed on getting a big instead of IT, maybe we would have been a 50 win / playoff team last year.

And that’s the point – we probably were a playoff hunting team this season if Morris wasn’t making headlines….so wtf is he still on this team for?

Right up until Bledsoe's injury you could easily pin the heavy majority of our loses on coaching, because when you're in a game and often leading, only to have it fall apart in the final few minutes that is not a talent problem, its a coaching problem. When that happens repeatedly... and you lose your best player on top of it, things go off the rails, and they have.

This season must surely rank as one of the more spectacular falls from grace any NBA team has ever gone through – we clearly weren’t built on strong foundations therefore, so laying it all on Hornacek is a bit much. He is a main contributor of course but what we just witnessed is a cultural disintegration, going from a pretty decent team to junk, and I'd put much of that on Morris. So again, why is he still here?

But, all in all the worst thing to happen to this team was the fluke 48 win season. It was a young team that was not supposed to compete, was not built with the intention to compete, but it played way over its head and put the front office in a bind because its hard to justify blowing up a team of young players that just won 48 games but how much higher was the ceiling of that team?

It was McD’s bad luck that they did well, it was his incompetence that he couldn’t build on the success. Total ignorance of culture IMO. We’ll never know what would have happened if we’d stuck with Dragic and Bledsoe but it couldn't be worse than what we're looking at now.

Its easy to say now that they should have blown it up but I cannot imagine the apocalypse among the fan base if they'd shipped off Dragic right after that campaign.

They needed to go after someone better than Plumlee and find a better replacement for Frye than Tolliver. I know I’m reaching but Amare was bought out mid-season and if we weren’t self-combusting but playoff hunting instead, surely he would have come here rather than Dallas. More good vibes and we’re all a lot happier than we are now.

McD has a good eye for talent, he is a shrewd negotiator in trades, there are a lot of flat out idiotic GMs out there (we had one prior to McD). We've got one with some skill whom there is no reason to suspect its impossible for him to adjust to the current situation.

The funniest thing in all of this is I still think the guy might, MIGHT, be able to pull it off because he does show signs, and to repeat what I’ve said before, maybe he can 'swing a boston’. But he barely deserves the chance IMO and I’d give him one more off season to right the ship (even though I think last year I said I'd fire him by the All Star break if we sucked). Hornacek probably can't be fired fast enough but maybe he goes okay with a less aggro roster.

Here's to Jan 15 to finding out some answers.
 

3rdside

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Are you saying Dragic is a better player than Bledsoe? Because that is simply not true.


Just saying that Bledsoe and Dragic were pretty good together without IT and they gave us better than knight and Bledsoe thus far.

That being said, Dragic is starting to show some signs with Miami and I can't deny I hold him in high regard for the 48 win season.


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Catlover

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Just saying that Bledsoe and Dragic were pretty good together without IT and they gave us better than knight and Bledsoe thus far.

That being said, Dragic is starting to show some signs with Miami and I can't deny I hold him in high regard for the 48 win season.

Do you just dismiss the 25 win season the year before when Dragic was the starting point guard? Or how about the fact that in our 48 win season we were just a .500 squad during the stretch (Bledsoe's surgery) where Goran was again forced to be the lead guard full time?

I like Goran but I don't understand the mythology surrounding him. He ran the 2 man game with Frye well and could penetrate from the low wing or baseline almost at will if the court was well spaced. He was also great at pushing the tempo. But he was weak at just about every other aspect of guard play.
 

Phrazbit

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I'm more concerned with what Knight is more than anything else - not bad, definitely flawed. He is young of course, his stats are good and with a better system maybe he turns out okay, so fiasco might be too strong a word. But with Deng and Rondo haunting us, are any of us sitting comfortable with this wait-and-see situation?



IT was pretty awful - not just the trade to get rid of him; should have got more - but the wholly unnecessary move to acquire him in the first place. Winning culture - meet blender.



If McD had placed greater emphasis on the Dragic / Frye 2 man game, and focussed on getting a big instead of IT, maybe we would have been a 50 win / playoff team last year.

And that’s the point – we probably were a playoff hunting team this season if Morris wasn’t making headlines….so wtf is he still on this team for?



This season must surely rank as one of the more spectacular falls from grace any NBA team has ever gone through – we clearly weren’t built on strong foundations therefore, so laying it all on Hornacek is a bit much. He is a main contributor of course but what we just witnessed is a cultural disintegration, going from a pretty decent team to junk, and I'd put much of that on Morris. So again, why is he still here?



It was McD’s bad luck that they did well, it was his incompetence that he couldn’t build on the success. Total ignorance of culture IMO. We’ll never know what would have happened if we’d stuck with Dragic and Bledsoe but it couldn't be worse than what we're looking at now.



They needed to go after someone better than Plumlee and find a better replacement for Frye than Tolliver. I know I’m reaching but Amare was bought out mid-season and if we weren’t self-combusting but playoff hunting instead, surely he would have come here rather than Dallas. More good vibes and we’re all a lot happier than we are now.



The funniest thing in all of this is I still think the guy might, MIGHT, be able to pull it off because he does show signs, and to repeat what I’ve said before, maybe he can 'swing a boston’. But he barely deserves the chance IMO and I’d give him one more off season to right the ship (even though I think last year I said I'd fire him by the All Star break if we sucked). Hornacek probably can't be fired fast enough but maybe he goes okay with a less aggro roster.

Here's to Jan 15 to finding out some answers.

I respect the long, thought out 'point, counter point' response. Seriously, there isn't enough of that on this forum. Thanks.

I disagree about the Thomas moves being awful. What made that situation fall apart was how fragile Dragic's psyche is. He'd been talking "team team team, I want to stay, I love it here, sacrifice" ect, and then when it came down to actually making some sacrifices he mentally fell apart, threw a fit and forced his way out (despite that Suns offered to move IT to appease him).

Which also leds to my thinking that in the long run we're better off that Dragic had his meltdown. The guy has been a rather mediocre player for all but one season in his career, he is struggling really bad right now, his fit spared us being the team who shelled him out nearly 20 million a year. Maybe we could have gotten more when dumping Thomas, probably if we'd kept him until the off season we would have, but they were trying to salvage the season (which was still salvageable at the time) and to do so they wanted to clean out a perceived bad apple. You gotta remember, prior to the trade a lot of posters were thinking we'd have to pair Thomas with a pick just to get rid of him.

Morris... that has one would probably fit the fiasco term better and you're right, he should have dumped Morris prior to the season. Knowing how immature the twins were they should have had a deal in place to dump Morris as soon as they knew they were dumping his brother. McD didn't and it's cost them dearly. I don't think its a fireable offense but its bad. And I still think, despite it, that Hornacek had the parts on the roster for this team to be waaaaaaaaaay better than it was prior to Bledsoe getting hurt.

If in a year from now we're in a similar spot, especially in the sense of having a toxic locker room, then yes, I will agree that despite McD's eye for talent and negotiating skills he doesn't understand chemistry. But at the moment I think that is more on Hornacek and his wonky rotations that have caused the players to lose trust in each other and their coach.
 

3rdside

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Do you just dismiss the 25 win season the year before when Dragic was the starting point guard? Or how about the fact that in our 48 win season we were just a .500 squad during the stretch (Bledsoe's surgery) where Goran was again forced to be the lead guard full time?

I like Goran but I don't understand the mythology surrounding him. He ran the 2 man game with Frye well and could penetrate from the low wing or baseline almost at will if the court was well spaced. He was also great at pushing the tempo. But he was weak at just about every other aspect of guard play.

What, a guy isn't allowed to improve? 2012-2013 was his first season as a starter playing with...


Marcin Gortat
Channing Frye
Michael Beasley
Luis Scola
Wesley Johnson
Jared Dudley
Shannon Brown
Markieff Morris
Marcus Morris
Kendall Marshall
Jermaine O'Neal
Hamed Haddadi
P.J. Tucker
Diante Garrett

No more needs to be said; that roster sucks.

And take anyone's right hand man away (Bledsoe in our case) and the team will struggle. We were 20-19 without him - above .500 - pretty good all things considered and a whole lot better than our record today.
 
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3rdside

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I respect the long, thought out 'point, counter point' response. Seriously, there isn't enough of that on this forum. Thanks.

I disagree about the Thomas moves being awful. What made that situation fall apart was how fragile Dragic's psyche is. He'd been talking "team team team, I want to stay, I love it here, sacrifice" ect, and then when it came down to actually making some sacrifices he mentally fell apart, threw a fit and forced his way out (despite that Suns offered to move IT to appease him).

Which also leds to my thinking that in the long run we're better off that Dragic had his meltdown. The guy has been a rather mediocre player for all but one season in his career, he is struggling really bad right now, his fit spared us being the team who shelled him out nearly 20 million a year. Maybe we could have gotten more when dumping Thomas, probably if we'd kept him until the off season we would have, but they were trying to salvage the season (which was still salvageable at the time) and to do so they wanted to clean out a perceived bad apple. You gotta remember, prior to the trade a lot of posters were thinking we'd have to pair Thomas with a pick just to get rid of him.

Morris... that has one would probably fit the fiasco term better and you're right, he should have dumped Morris prior to the season. Knowing how immature the twins were they should have had a deal in place to dump Morris as soon as they knew they were dumping his brother. McD didn't and it's cost them dearly. I don't think its a fireable offense but its bad. And I still think, despite it, that Hornacek had the parts on the roster for this team to be waaaaaaaaaay better than it was prior to Bledsoe getting hurt.

If in a year from now we're in a similar spot, especially in the sense of having a toxic locker room, then yes, I will agree that despite McD's eye for talent and negotiating skills he doesn't understand chemistry. But at the moment I think that is more on Hornacek and his wonky rotations that have caused the players to lose trust in each other and their coach.

No need to thank me – thank my job interview I have next week; haven’t worked in a couple months, need to start preparing for it…and, surprise surprise, the restraint I’ve shown to not post here goes straight out the window.

You and I definitely disagree on Dragic – I know he handled it badly but I blame McD for that far more than I blame him. Dragic was the leader of the team and in comes a mouthy, tunnel-visioned point guard that immediately starts whining about not starting and all the positivity we’d built up in 13-14 disappears instantly. A total slap in the face for a guy that had sacrificed for the ball club by taking a 'family' contract to come back here and who'd proven himself as the main guy. And a good guy no less.

IMO, it was management idiocy of the highest order to bring in IT.

And I don’t think it would have cost us $18m to keep him – I’m convinced he would have taken another family deal ($16m or so) to stick around as team leader. And even if it was $18m, once the cap goes up, it's actually not that big a proportion of it.

It goes without saying I’m a Suns fan first and foremost but I'm also pulling for Dragic to succeed just to rub it in the face of McD (and therefore Sarver for hiring the guy in the first place); I’m fairly sure - 80:20 - this club is going nowhere with those two (+Hornacek) running the show.
 
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Phrazbit

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I gotta disagree on the idea that his first contract was a "family" deal. The Rockets let it be known they had no interest in the kind of money the Suns offered him. Sure, it ended up being a good bang for buck deal, but when it was signed he was still unproven as a starting level point guard.

And I also disagree that he would've given us a discount during the last off season if not for the IT situation. When he limited the trade destinations to the Lakers, Knicks and Heat it was a real pealing off the mask by him. A guy who would potentially take a discount would not be the kind of guy to force his way to destinations who's only appeal is money and glamour. He claimed his complaints were about his role on the team; then when looking for a new team he clearly his "role" on a new club was not even a consideration. I believed the "nice guy" stuff until that list of teams came out. That is the kind of stuff that only a 100% "me" player pulls. If Bledsoe had made a similar demand prior to his contract extension he would have become an all-time despised Sun. Dragic gets away with it because of his "aww shucks" way he carries himself, but that was a pure scummy move by him. Then when he basically admitted later that the junk he said in the media was just to leverage the Suns into making a move... Seriously, if not for what he did in the Spurs series in 2010 I would despise the dude.

I hope Dragic's entire Heat career plays out as miserably as the first calendar year of it has. And honestly, I expect it to. He may drag his stats this season up to that of an average level player but I don't see a guy who relies on speed like him aging well. He is a system player. Outside of getting to play in a chaotic, up and down team he is a really mediocre player.
 

3rdside

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(despite that Suns offered to move IT to appease him).

I missed this - i didn't know that but I'd guess by that stage the inmates were running the asylum so who could blame him for wanting to **** of dodge.
 

3rdside

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I gotta disagree on the idea that his first contract was a "family" deal. The Rockets let it be known they had no interest in the kind of money the Suns offered him. Sure, it ended up being a good bang for buck deal, but when it was signed he was still unproven as a starting level point guard.
I can’t find it now but I posted a link last year saying Charlotte were offering him more.

And I also disagree that he would've given us a discount during the last off season if not for the IT situation. When he limited the trade destinations to the Lakers, Knicks and Heat it was a real pealing off the mask by him. A guy who would potentially take a discount would not be the kind of guy to force his way to destinations who's only appeal is money and glamour. He claimed his complaints were about his role on the team; then when looking for a new team he clearly his "role" on a new club was not even a consideration. I believed the "nice guy" stuff until that list of teams came out. That is the kind of stuff that only a 100% "me" player pulls. If Bledsoe had made a similar demand prior to his contract extension he would have become an all-time despised Sun. Dragic gets away with it because of his "aww shucks" way he carries himself, but that was a pure scummy move by him. Then when he basically admitted later that the junk he said in the media was just to leverage the Suns into making a move... Seriously, if not for what he did in the Spurs series in 2010 I would despise the dude.

For every action (IT) there’s an equal opposite reaction (out of character behaviour). I forgive one forced incident of it for the reason that he was screwed, in a contract year no less.

I hope Dragic's entire Heat career plays out as miserably as the first calendar year of it has. And honestly, I expect it to. He may drag his stats this season up to that of an average level player but I don't see a guy who relies on speed like him aging well. He is a system player. Outside of getting to play in a chaotic, up and down team he is a really mediocre player.

Love it – perspective is a strange thing (and 22 and 7 against us last night is…pretty good ; )
 
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