Redo 2015 Draft- How high would Booker go?

[Phrazbit]

I can’t find it now but I posted a link last year saying Charlotte were offering him more.



For every action (IT) there’s an equal opposite reaction (out of character behaviour). I forgive one forced incident of it for the reason that he was screwed.



Love it – perspective is a strange thing (and 22 and 7 against us last night is…pretty good ; )

It's one game, meanwhile he is averaging 12 and 5 on the season... which is pretty lousy. It's also the type of mediocre numbers he has put up his entire career outside of one season that looks more and more fluky as time goes on.

And I'd consider his constant moaning, terrible defense and dogging it last season poor character enough. That type of trade demand is not something done in a spur of the moment reaction to a situation. Demanding to play in Miami, New York or LA... supposedly because of his "role"... I can't forgive that. It is so patently disingenuous and hypocritical.

But... in the end we're better off for it. We're lucky he was actually a just another two faced, selfish, money *****. Or we'd be the ones stuck paying a mediocre player who relies entirely on speed nearly 20 million a year right at the tail end of his prime.

 

[3rdside]

It's one game, meanwhile he is averaging 12 and 5 on the season... which is pretty lousy. It's also the type of mediocre numbers he has put up his entire career outside of one season that looks more and more fluky as time goes on.

I would never base an opinion on one game – all I said was that he was showing signs:

11.1pts, 5.3ast, 3.3rbd over the first 27 games

15.6pts, 4.8ast, 3.4rbd over the last 8

One game missed.

And I'd consider his constant moaning, terrible defense and dogging it last season poor character enough. That type of trade demand is not something done in a spur of the moment reaction to a situation. Demanding to play in Miami, New York or LA... supposedly because of his "role"... I can't forgive that. It is so patently disingenuous and hypocritical.

But... in the end we're better off for it. We're lucky he was actually a just another two faced, selfish, money *****. Or we'd be the ones stuck paying a mediocre player who relies entirely on speed nearly 20 million a year right at the tail end of his prime.

Sure – I'm totally agreeing to disagree.

 

[SirStefan32]

People also need to keep in mind that Dragic is a distant third, maybe even fourth option in Miami. I thought he's do better, as I envisioned a different system. Slow down when Wade is on, run when he is out (If Wade is out, Dragic is in), but Miami seems to be doing something different.

Dragic also has the same problem that he had here- he is NOT assertive at all. He is happy to stand in the corner. He'll explode for 12-15 points in a quarter, and then he'll stop shooting and driving. I swear he has some form of Steve Nash Envy. This becomes even more problematic when there is another primary ball handler. He HAS to find a way to be effective off the ball.

 

[devilalum]

Booker is going be so much better once he develops an NBA body. Its amazing what he's been able to do so far with his slight build. I bet he'll even add a couple of inches to his vertical.

IMO he's pretty much untouchable. Watching him go head to head with Wade was pretty impressive

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[3rdside]

People also need to keep in mind that Dragic is a distant third, maybe even fourth option in Miami. I thought he's do better, as I envisioned a different system. Slow down when Wade is on, run when he is out (If Wade is out, Dragic is in), but Miami seems to be doing something different.

Dragic also has the same problem that he had here- he is NOT assertive at all. He is happy to stand in the corner. He'll explode for 12-15 points in a quarter, and then he'll stop shooting and driving. I swear he has some form of Steve Nash Envy. This becomes even more problematic when there is another primary ball handler. He HAS to find a way to be effective off the ball.

Right - if he ends up with 16pts 5ast in that team he's doing alright, and agreed about his assertiveness. I think he's good enough as a player, and miami, with their family culture, are probably as good a place as any for him to work it over the medium term, esp once Wade starts to decline (who might be out injured against GS Monday meaning we should get an early look at what Dragic can do being the main guy).

 

[sunsfan88]

Right - if he ends up with 16pts 5ast in that team he's doing alright, and agreed about his assertiveness. I think he's good enough as a player, and miami, with their family culture, are probably as good a place as any for him to work it over the medium term, esp once Wade starts to decline (who might be out injured against GS Monday meaning we should get an early look at what Dragic can do being the main guy).

That seems like his role there. Heat don't need him to drop 25 and 7 a game, they just need him to make enough plays so they get enough contribution from the position to keep winning like they have. Plus he isn't asked to do as much because they have two other guys who can score pretty well. Usually playing on a winning team with players than you, your individual stats will come down. Dragic, Wade and Bosh have all spoke about sacrificing to win and it looks to be working for them thus far, Heat are top 4 in the very competitive East. I don't know if it stills holds true but I remember reading that Dragic has top 3 +/- on the Heat and their coach Spoelstra chalked it up to showing how unselfish he is when he's out there.

 

[3rdside]

But... in the end we're better off for it. We're lucky he was actually a just another two faced, selfish, money *****. Or we'd be the ones stuck paying a mediocre player who relies entirely on speed nearly 20 million a year right at the tail end of his prime.

I should clarify and say even if we did keep Dragic, we'd still have Sarver and McD i.e. we'd still suck as McD would have found a way to screw up the roster (meaning Dragic could, as you say, be underperforming and overpaid - he's hardly a one man club saviour in the vein of Steve Nash, J Kidd etc).



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[silverstyne]

I believe our team and Dragic had an excellent fit together, and Mcd had to outsmart himself and bring in isaiah which just ruined the whole thing. Its common sense in HR to take care of your most importsnt people/employee not aggrandize them.

Sad to say, the dragic fiasco was not the only headscratcher. I dont get the trade for Brandon Knight at all. To wit. We traded away our bargain contract selfish combo guard IT2 voluntarily, only to bring in a very similar player in Brandon Knight at the cost of our LA pick?? Head to head, IT2 even has better stats than BK at half the cost. What was McD thinking?

I dont even have to mention the Morris twins situation. Maybe McD probbly is a stat or finance whiz or something but he has no basic understanding of human resource management.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I believe our team and Dragic had an excellent fit together, and Mcd had to outsmart himself and bring in isaiah which just ruined the whole thing. Its common sense in HR to take care of your most importsnt people/employee not aggrandize them.

Sad to say, the dragic fiasco was not the only headscratcher. I dont get the trade for Brandon Knight at all. To wit. We traded away our bargain contract selfish combo guard IT2 voluntarily, only to bring in a very similar player in Brandon Knight at the cost of our LA pick?? Head to head, IT2 even has better stats than BK at half the cost. What was McD thinking?

I dont even have to mention the Morris twins situation. Maybe McD probbly is a stat or finance whiz or something but he has no basic understanding of human resource management.

To wit?

 

[devilalum]

I believe our team and Dragic had an excellent fit together, and Mcd had to outsmart himself and bring in isaiah which just ruined the whole thing. Its common sense in HR to take care of your most importsnt people/employee not aggrandize them.

Sad to say, the dragic fiasco was not the only headscratcher. I dont get the trade for Brandon Knight at all. To wit. We traded away our bargain contract selfish combo guard IT2 voluntarily, only to bring in a very similar player in Brandon Knight at the cost of our LA pick?? Head to head, IT2 even has better stats than BK at half the cost. What was McD thinking?

I dont even have to mention the Morris twins situation. Maybe McD probbly is a stat or finance whiz or something but he has no basic understanding of human resource management.

I don't care what they say the Knight trade was knee jerk damage control to deflect attention fron the whole IT, Dragic fiasco.

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[Catlover]

I don't care what they say the Knight trade was knee jerk damage control to deflect attention fron the whole IT, Dragic fiasco.

Like you I'm just guessing but I see it differently. IMO they made the decision to move IT to Boston well before Goran's public demand. The locker room blowup in December between Goran and IT split the team and led to the private demand from Dragic's camp that something be done. Ryan could have backed out of the deal when Goran made his public demand at the trade deadline but didn't want to alienate Ainge and his front office. Losing IT and Goran created the need for another guard and it was looking clear that we weren't going to get LA's high pick that season.

 

[devilalum]

Like you I'm just guessing but I see it differently. IMO they made the decision to move IT to Boston well before Goran's public demand. The locker room blowup in December between Goran and IT split the team and led to the private demand from Dragic's camp that something be done. Ryan could have backed out of the deal when Goran made his public demand at the trade deadline but didn't want to alienate Ainge and his front office. Losing IT and Goran created the need for another guard and it was looking clear that we weren't going to get LA's high pick that season.

Because we all know that backing out of agreed deals never works to your advantage. (Curry)

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[Errntknght]

I believe our team and Dragic had an excellent fit together, and Mcd had to outsmart himself and bring in isaiah which just ruined the whole thing. Its common sense in HR to take care of your most importsnt people/employee not aggrandize them.

Sad to say, the dragic fiasco was not the only headscratcher. I dont get the trade for Brandon Knight at all. To wit. We traded away our bargain contract selfish combo guard IT2 voluntarily, only to bring in a very similar player in Brandon Knight at the cost of our LA pick?? Head to head, IT2 even has better stats than BK at half the cost. What was McD thinking?

I dont even have to mention the Morris twins situation. Maybe McD probbly is a stat or finance whiz or something but he has no basic understanding of human resource management.

What Dragic fiasco? Unless you thought the Suns were on the brink of contention, Goran was too old so he did us a favor by forcing himself out of here. One could make a case for keeping IT but he and Bledsoe gave us a very undersized backcourt and IT was quite exploitable on defense. Brandon Knight is a considerably better defender, so I can understand that move but I certainly didn't like it - I thought we'd be better off with a true point guard since Bled was not a great ballhandler nor playmaker and BK was not an improvement in those areas. With the emergence of Booker and TJ as scorers it's even more true now.

I don't know which of Hornacek or McD had the idea that we could do well with two combo guards manning our backcourt but they've said they were on the same page so they're probably equally to blame. Jeff certainly gets the bulk of it for the ill suited offense he's having them run - combo guards need a more structured offense than point guards do, not less. (Heck, Phil Jackson has such a structured offense he can dispense with both.)

 

[Catlover]

Because we all know that backing out of agreed deals never works to your advantage. (Curry)

Most executives honor their agreements. In this case, it would have been between Ryan and basically his mentor. Not a bridge most of us would want to burn especially over a player that we didn't think should start but who clearly felt otherwise.

As for the Curry pick - I use to think that Nelson or the owner double crossed us that night. But from what Kerr said it sounds like there was never really even a handshake deal. It would have been nice it we could have made it happen but IIRC from Kerr's statement there was an issue about Amare that kept it from taking form (not willing to sign there longterm maybe?).

 

[devilalum]

Most executives honor their agreements. In this case, it would have been between Ryan and basically his mentor. Not a bridge most of us would want to burn especially over a player that we didn't think should start but who clearly felt otherwise.

As for the Curry pick - I use to think that Nelson or the owner double crossed us that night. But from what Kerr said it sounds like there was never really even a handshake deal. It would have been nice it we could have made it happen but IIRC from Kerr's statement there was an issue about Amare that kept it from taking form (not willing to sign there longterm maybe?).

Yeah maybe but I'd hardly call Kerr an unbiased source.

 

[Phrazbit]

In the interview I read with Kerr prior to him joining the Warriors he came off as trying to be as polite as possible in stating the Suns were absolutely certain they had a deal.

 

[Catlover]

Yeah maybe but I'd hardly call Kerr an unbiased source.

Because we all know that backing out of agreed deals never works to your advantage. (Curry)

In the interview I read with Kerr prior to him joining the Warriors he came off as trying to be as polite as possible in stating the Suns were absolutely certain they had a deal.

Here's a quote from a Steve Kerr interview with Tim Kawakami BEFORE Kerr joined the Warriors:

-KERR: It was close. There was not a deal done. But it was tricky because of Amare’s physical situation. Because he had bad knees, any deal that we were going to make would’ve been subject to a physical…

There's obviously more to the article but it didn't seem like there was any ill feelings on our part or even the hint of wrongdoing on the Warriors part. Amare's knees were questionable and we didn't know if a deal would be able to go through so we stayed a step away from making the deal too. We wanted him and when they took him we thought we had a chance to make a deal but it wasn't going to be a slam dunk because of his knees and the question over whether he'd sign longterm.

 

[Phrazbit]

Here's a quote from a Steve Kerr interview with Tim Kawakami BEFORE Kerr joined the Warriors:



There's obviously more to the article but it didn't seem like there was any ill feelings on our part or even the hint of wrongdoing on the Warriors part. Amare's knees were questionable and we didn't know if a deal would be able to go through so we stayed a step away from making the deal too. We wanted him and when they took him we thought we had a chance to make a deal but it wasn't going to be a slam dunk because of his knees and the question over whether he'd sign longterm.

Here is another quote from him:

"The deal was contingent, on our end, on Curry being there," former Suns GM Steve Kerr told Arizona Sports 620's Burns and Gambo Friday. "And when he was still there, we were under the impression that we had a deal and unfortunately in the NBA, and I'm sure in every sport, nothing's done until the trade call is made so it fell through after that," he said. "We looked at him as our next Steve Nash."

http://arizonasports.com/story/1657...t-night-deal-with-warriors-for-stephen-curry/

And I know he has, more than once, confirmed that if not for them thinking they were trading for Curry they would have taken Jrue Holiday instead of Earl Clark.

I suspect he has softened some of the language over the years because he had aspirations to get back into the league somewhere, not that he knew he'd get hired by the Warriors but if you get a rep for letting "bedroom" talk get out in the open then it would hurt him down the line.

Regardless, IMO, in the past, he made it clear that they thought they deal that was as "for sure" as the rules allowed.

 

[Catlover]

Here is another quote from him:

http://arizonasports.com/story/1657...t-night-deal-with-warriors-for-stephen-curry/

And I know he has, more than once, confirmed that if not for them thinking they were trading for Curry they would have taken Jrue Holiday instead of Earl Clark.

I suspect he has softened some of the language over the years because he had aspirations to get back into the league somewhere, not that he knew he'd get hired by the Warriors but if you get a rep for letting "bedroom" talk get out in the open then it would hurt him down the line.

Regardless, IMO, in the past, he made it clear that they thought they deal that was as "for sure" as the rules allowed.

Read his interview with Tim, I think it explains things better. And remember, Kerr was an inexperienced GM and probably not as aware of the ins and outs as he eventually became. I've read most everything I could find on this subject before and one of the things that stood out to me was when he acknowledged they hadn't actually done the things on their end they would have needed to do to make the deal. Prior to reading about that I too felt that Nelson and company had screwed us over that night.

The clincher for me was that they (Suns) hadn't agreed to let the Warriors talk to Amare or his agent because they didn't want to deal with an unhappy player if it didn't work out. That screams to me that they'd left the Warriors hanging and that it was anything but a done deal. Here's part of his response when asked whether they'd given the Warriors permission to discuss a contract:

-KERR: We never got that far. That would’ve been part of it. He would’ve been a free agent the following summer–obviously teams are reluctant to trade for coming free agents.That would’ve been the next part of the conversation… a physical and an extension and that kind of stuff.

But those … the timing of all that stuff is so tricky because… even the execution of it. I had other deals like that, too, when I was the general manager with other players, potential trades where the team on the other end said all right, I’ll make a deal if he agrees to an extesion and you sit there and say, well,if I tell this player this is what’s happening but he doesn’t want to go there and sign, have I now lost him emotionally because he knows I tried to trade him?

And there's more articles out there from the Warriors side that paint a different picture than the one most of us have. For example, there's an article about how Curry's dad and agent were keeping the Warriors away from workouts and interviews because they didn't want him in Golden State but Larry Riley made it clear he was going to draft him anyway if he fell to his spot.

And from the same Tim Kawakami interview, here's what he said about Jrue and Clark:

-KERR: We liked Holiday a lot. We still had Nash, we had Goran Dragic who we loved and we had a potential thought we had a potential deal involving Curry.

We didn’t know what was going to happen. And so you toss all that together, we were thinking, ‘Well, we could end up with four point guards. Do we take a guy and then just let it sort out later?’

That’s probably the right thing to do, just take the best player and sort it out later.

But we were in desperate need of a wing defender and we liked Earl’s potential as a 3-4 defender which is a critical piece these days to guard all these hybrid fours and he fit a lot better into what we were trying to do for the next year. Obviously in retrospect Holiday was the better player as it turned out…

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I respect the long, thought out 'point, counter point' response. Seriously, there isn't enough of that on this forum. Thanks.

I disagree about the Thomas moves being awful. What made that situation fall apart was how fragile Dragic's psyche is. He'd been talking "team team team, I want to stay, I love it here, sacrifice" ect, and then when it came down to actually making some sacrifices he mentally fell apart, threw a fit and forced his way out (despite that Suns offered to move IT to appease him).

Which also leds to my thinking that in the long run we're better off that Dragic had his meltdown. The guy has been a rather mediocre player for all but one season in his career, he is struggling really bad right now, his fit spared us being the team who shelled him out nearly 20 million a year. Maybe we could have gotten more when dumping Thomas, probably if we'd kept him until the off season we would have, but they were trying to salvage the season (which was still salvageable at the time) and to do so they wanted to clean out a perceived bad apple. You gotta remember, prior to the trade a lot of posters were thinking we'd have to pair Thomas with a pick just to get rid of him.

Morris... that has one would probably fit the fiasco term better and you're right, he should have dumped Morris prior to the season. Knowing how immature the twins were they should have had a deal in place to dump Morris as soon as they knew they were dumping his brother. McD didn't and it's cost them dearly. I don't think its a fireable offense but its bad. And I still think, despite it, that Hornacek had the parts on the roster for this team to be waaaaaaaaaay better than it was prior to Bledsoe getting hurt.

If in a year from now we're in a similar spot, especially in the sense of having a toxic locker room, then yes, I will agree that despite McD's eye for talent and negotiating skills he doesn't understand chemistry. But at the moment I think that is more on Hornacek and his wonky rotations that have caused the players to lose trust in each other and their coach.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but this part just isn't true to me. Dragic just came off his best season ever and looked like our best player while doing it (closest to a pure PG on our roster). Then in a contract year they decided to basically push him to playing almost exclusively off the ball. Could he have handled the situation a little better? Sure he could have, but I have no problem with him being upset over it, especially when it wasn't actually for the betterment of the team.

 

[leclerc]

I agree Booker should be untouchable on this team. They should go as far to trade one of our starting guards to free up a starting position for him. I doubt either of Bledsoe and Knight are okay with coming off the bench.

 

[BC867]

Then in a contract year they decided to basically push him to playing almost exclusively off the ball. Could he have handled the situation a little better? Sure he could have, but I have no problem with him being upset over it, especially when it wasn't actually for the betterment of the team.

And, to add insult to injury, Dragic had to guard Small Forwards in their 3 Guard lineups. That also was not for the betterment of the team.

It reflects the inexperience of an Owner, General Manager and Head Coach, each in their first assignment in that spot.

 

[slinslin]

And, to add insult to injury, Dragic had to guard Small Forwards in their 3 Guard lineups. That also was not for the betterment of the team.

It reflects the inexperience of an Owner, General Manager and Head Coach, each in their first assignment in that spot.

Yes it was, we were playing winning basketball, when Dragic was the PG we lost the majority of our games and dropped out of the playoff race.

Also Dragic guarding small forwards was an exception and far from the norm, besides that he does not guard anyone anyway.

 

[3rdside]

Most executives honor their agreements. In this case, it would have been between Ryan and basically his mentor. Not a bridge most of us would want to burn especially over a player that we didn't think should start but who clearly felt otherwise.

At first I thought this was a nice way to reinstate some credibility towards mcd - he made a stupid trade on principal only because he'd given his word, and it was dragic who made it into what it was. Bravo mcd.

But then I thought about it some more...does he work for the Suns or does he work for Boston? If he works for the Suns he explains quite simply the situation:


McD: "Sorry Danny, dragic has just insisted on a trade, no way we can trade IT now, I'm sure you understand"

DA: "kinda sucks Ryan but I totally understand - you can't be a two point guard team with one point guard".


So either he's an idiot for making the trade cause it heavily favoured Boston, or he's a disloyal idiot that put Boston's needs before the Suns'. Am I missing something or does that about sum it up?

IT is pulling a 22 PER with 7 assists, doing it all, and more, than knight for less than half his price. All that for a second rounder...





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[slinslin]

we got a first round pick for IT, not a second round pick