Reds-Rays-Diamondbacks pull three team trade

[overseascardfan]

Holmberg is NOT a "valuable commodity", regardless of what/where he was ranked in our system. So yes, I am totally fine with this trade.
I am also fine (and I believe this also infuriates the haters) with the fact that KT had the gumption to make this trade. He brought Bell here. He really, really, really respects Bell and in fact, many who know them claim that KT just traded away a "friend". I am comforted to see that KT was willing to put friendship aside and make the tough call...
And lastly, as is the vast majority of deals such as this, the true assessment won't be able to be made for some time down the road. When Holmberg proves to be a fat, out of shape, spaghetti-armed loaf, we gain some clarity on Choate and the PTBNL, and we see how this additional $5.5 million is used, we'll be able to better assess this deal...

Walt Jocketty & Andrew Friedman are 2 of the best GM's in MLB so they must have seen Bell & Holmberg as guys that could help their clubs. Had ARZ traded some A-Ball kid that would never see a big league roster then fine, good trade but Holmberg was well regarded. You may not like the kid but Jocketty must.

 

[Diamondback Jay]

I'm not a KT "hater." I don't agree with 100 percent of his moves, but I'm no hater.

And sorry but his numbers in the minors proved he's capable of being more than a "fat, out of shape, spaghetti armed loaf." He's shown potential to be a nice pitcher, and I'm not changing my view because he is now a former Diamondback farm hand.

I DO agree the verdict is out on this deal. I also agree on him having moxy to make tough calls like this. However, we are going to have to agree to disagree on Holmberg.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Walt Jocketty & Andrew Friedman are 2 of the best GM's in MLB so they must have seen Bell & Holmberg as guys that could help their clubs. Had ARZ traded some A-Ball kid that would never see a big league roster then fine, good trade but Holmberg was well regarded. You may not like the kid but Jocketty must.

And?? I couldn't care any less about how Jockety or Friedman feel about Holmberg. Let's revisit Mr. Holmberg around July/August of 2014...

 

[Diamondback Jay]

Walt Jocketty & Andrew Friedman are 2 of the best GM's in MLB so they must have seen Bell & Holmberg as guys that could help their clubs. Had ARZ traded some A-Ball kid that would never see a big league roster then fine, good trade but Holmberg was well regarded. You may not like the kid but Jocketty must.

Agree on Holmberg.

Also, Tampa made this deal because Friedman has a major man crush on Ryan Hannigan and Jocketty likes Holmberg.

We will wait and see on the PTBNL. There's a few bats in Tampa's system I am high on that would make this a nice deal.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I'm not a KT "hater." I don't agree with 100 percent of his moves, but I'm no hater.

And sorry but his numbers in the minors proved he's capable of being more than a "fat, out of shape, spaghetti armed loaf." He's shown potential to be a nice pitcher, and I'm not changing my view because he is now a former Diamondback farm hand.

I DO agree the verdict is out on this deal. I also agree on him having moxy to make tough calls like this. However, we are going to have to agree to disagree on Holmberg.

No need to agree or disagree on Holmberg... Let's agree to revisit him next summer. If he's proving to be what some here, as well as people like Jockety, think he is, then I'll eat my crow... or, vice versa...

 

[Diamondback Jay]

And?? I couldn't care any less about how Jockety or Friedman feel about Holmberg. Let's revisit Mr. Holmberg around July/August of 2014...

They are two of the better and more respected talent evaluators in baseball. If they find Holmberg to be of value, he's not the fat loaf you are labeling him.

And revisit in 2014-2015? Why? No point in looking back. Just wait and see what we get in return both with Choate, the extra player and what becomes of the 5.5 million saved. This could become a deal that... God forbid....Benefits all teams involved.

 

[Diamondback Jay]

No need to agree or disagree on Holmberg... Let's agree to revisit him next summer. If he's proving to be what some here, as well as people like Jockety, think he is, then I'll eat my crow... or, vice versa...

Or better. Let's see what becomes of all the players moved in this deal and if all pan out, applaud all three GMs for making a shrewd move that benefitted all three teams.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Or better. Let's see what becomes of all the players moved in this deal and if all pan out, applaud all three GMs for making a shrewd move that benefitted all three teams.

That's really what I meant... sounds good to me!

 

[82CardsGrad]

They are two of the better and more respected talent evaluators in baseball. If they find Holmberg to be of value, he's not the fat loaf you are labeling him.

And revisit in 2014-2015? Why? No point in looking back. Just wait and see what we get in return both with Choate, the extra player and what becomes of the 5.5 million saved. This could become a deal that... God forbid....Benefits all teams involved.

Yea... I know Jockety and Friedman are well respected talent evaluators...Does that mean they never whiff??
Again, we'll re-address all of this later in 2014 and probably beyond. My hunch is that Holmberg will be back down in the minors by then...

 

[Diamondback Jay]

Yea... I know Jockety and Friedman are well respected talent evaluators...Does that mean they never whiff??
Again, we'll re-address all of this later in 2014 and probably beyond. My hunch is that Holmberg will be back down in the minors by then...

Sure. They all whiff now and again. Wait and see though.

Eh. They still got Skaggs, Bradley and Shipley. I'm high on those three so hope runs eternal.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Sure. They all whiff now and again. Wait and see though.

Eh. They still got Skaggs, Bradley and Shipley. I'm high on those three so hope runs eternal.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm sorry... I'm laughing as I just can't get the visual of you angrily sticking pins into your KT doll as I read your rants...


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And I get the feeling we could trade Paul Goldschmidt for a ham sandwich tomorrow and you'd sit back and say "Lets wait to hear how that sandwich tastes before we can judge this trade... 2016 at the earliest".

We gave away a prospect because our GM f'ed up and you're PRAISING him for it. Because Bell was a friend? What GM trades for their buddies? Because Bell had a bad contract? Everyone knew his contract sucked before he got here! Of all the things Towers has done to praise him for this absolutely idiotic Bell situation is absolutely laughable.

Yea... I know Jockety and Friedman are well respected talent evaluators...Does that mean they never whiff??
Again, we'll re-address all of this later in 2014 and probably beyond. My hunch is that Holmberg will be back down in the minors by then...

And Kevin Towers will be unemployed.

 

[82CardsGrad]

And I get the feeling we could trade Paul Goldschmidt for a ham sandwich tomorrow and you'd sit back and say "Lets wait to hear how that sandwich tastes before we can judge this trade... 2016 at the earliest".

We gave away a prospect because our GM f'ed up and you're PRAISING him for it. Because Bell was a friend? What GM trades for their buddies? Because Bell had a bad contract? Everyone knew his contract sucked before he got here! Of all the things Towers has done to praise him for this absolutely idiotic Bell situation is absolutely laughable.


And Kevin Towers will be unemployed.

You're hysterical dude... No, really... you are.

Anyway, as I said earlier, I don't believe Bell's contract was a "bad" contract or that it "sucked". $5 million (Marlins paid $4 million) for a tenured, accomplished reliever is about right. Some could even argue it was below market...

But, if my praising KT for unloading Bell for 1/2 million, bringing 2 prospects and coming out $5.5 million to the good makes you laugh, I'm very happy that I can reciprocate the humor as, you crack me up man...

 

[Phrazbit]

Its like your kid pooped on the floor, then used some of your decent linens to wipe it up and you say "Hey, he cleaned up the poop! What a great job!"

Seriously. No matter how low you think of Holmberg the guy was an decently regarded MLB prospect and we gave him away for salary relief... and its not as though it wasnt a salary problem that KT didnt create on his own through a deal that even a year ago people were panning.

"Some could even argue it was below market"... seriously YOU crack me up. Now the orginal Bell swap with the Marlins was arguably a salary savvy move... and yet a year later you're applauding that we had to give away a prospect just to get rid of that money?!?!

So... you think Bell was arguably below market, so THAT was a good trade... and now we had to give away a prospect because of his salary and THAT was a good trade because it freed up money.

That you can argue extremely contradictory sides of that with a straight face is astounding. I know you will retort by saying "I'm hysterical"... but honestly, your homerism is over the top.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Its like your kid pooped on the floor, then used some of your decent linens to wipe it up and you say "Hey, he cleaned up the poop! What a great job!"

Seriously. No matter how low you think of Holmberg the guy was an decently regarded MLB prospect and we gave him away for salary relief... and its not as though it wasnt a salary problem that KT didnt create on his own through a deal that even a year ago people were panning.

"Some could even argue it was below market"... seriously YOU crack me up. Now the orginal Bell swap with the Marlins was arguably a salary savvy move... and yet a year later you're applauding that we had to give away a prospect just to get rid of that money?!?!

So... you think Bell was arguably below market, so THAT was a good trade... and now we had to give away a prospect because of his salary and THAT was a good trade because it freed up money.

That you can argue extremely contradictory sides of that with a straight face is astounding. I know you will retort by saying "I'm hysterical"... but honestly, your homerism is over the top.

Take a breath dude... Seriously, close your eyes and breath deeply and slowly... Keep going.... Keep going...

Ok, feel better? No? Well, let me try this one last time - though, I have zero hope that you'll be able to overcome your KT hysteria...

The Dbacks are not the Yankees, right?? Can we agree on that? Can we agree that with a $100 million payroll, that KT doesn't have the luxury of attracting bigtime, perennial all-star free agents? Right?
So, when dealing with that situation, there are times when you have to simply take a shot. $5 million on a guy like Bell was not over the top or dramatically above market. In hindsight, Bell crapped the bed... But, from 2007 - 2011, Bell was one of the best relievers in the game. And to get him for $5 million was not a "sucky" move...

As for my kid pooping on the floor... Yea, my kid makes a mistake every once and a while. And I LOVE it when he takes the responsibility for it and cleans it up, rather than let it sit there and continue to stink things up.
So, while you seem to believe that KT should be God-like... some type of all-knowing, perfect and flawless being, the reality is that all GM's whiff from time to time. He whiffed on Bell. And then he cleaned up his poop. And if by cleaning up his poop means that he had to use a rag like Holmberg - which you clearly seem to believe was on track for super-stardom - so be it. We are $5.5 million better off than we were a few days ago.

That's all I got dude... Go Dbacks!!!

 

[Diamondback Jay]

D-Backs Looking To Trade Market For Ace, Power Bats
By Steve Adams [December 4 at 3:30pm CST]
3:30pm:*The Diamondbacks may also be looking to the trade market for power bats, according to a recent series of tweets from Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. Rosenthal reports that the D-Backs and A's recently discussed a trade that would send Yoenis Cespedes to Arizona in exchange for Tyler Skaggs, A.J. Pollock and others. Both sides have cooled on the idea and backed off the trade at this time, however, and the A's would only trade Cespedes for a "monster" return, according to Rosenthal. Still, as he points out, it serves as an example that the Diamondbacks will be aggressive and creative in their search for a power bat in the outfield.

1:54pm:*The Diamondbacks are motivated to swing a trade for an ace-caliber pitcher, reports ESPN's Jerry Crasnick. Crasnick spoke with Arizona GM Kevin Towers, president/CEO Derrick Hall and owner Ken Kendrick in an excellent, in-depth breakdown of the situation. While Towers was quick to say that no player is untouchable, he sounded loath to part with prized pitching prospect Archie Bradley, a consensus Top 10 MLB prospect. Asked about the possiblity of trading Bradley, he replied:

"I don't see that happening. Not that anybody is untouchable, but we're hoping he's our David Price, and we can control him [for several years].*He's gonna get every opportunity to crack our rotation this spring ... He's not looking to make our rotation as the fifth guy -- he's looking to make it as the ace."

 

[Diamondback Jay]

Two interesting points in there.

 

[82CardsGrad]

D-Backs Looking To Trade Market For Ace, Power Bats
By Steve Adams [December 4 at 3:30pm CST]
3:30pm:*The Diamondbacks may also be looking to the trade market for power bats, according to a recent series of tweets from Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. Rosenthal reports that the D-Backs and A's recently discussed a trade that would send Yoenis Cespedes to Arizona in exchange for Tyler Skaggs, A.J. Pollock and others. Both sides have cooled on the idea and backed off the trade at this time, however, and the A's would only trade Cespedes for a "monster" return, according to Rosenthal. Still, as he points out, it serves as an example that the Diamondbacks will be aggressive and creative in their search for a power bat in the outfield.

1:54pm:*The Diamondbacks are motivated to swing a trade for an ace-caliber pitcher, reports ESPN's Jerry Crasnick. Crasnick spoke with Arizona GM Kevin Towers, president/CEO Derrick Hall and owner Ken Kendrick in an excellent, in-depth breakdown of the situation. While Towers was quick to say that no player is untouchable, he sounded loath to part with prized pitching prospect Archie Bradley, a consensus Top 10 MLB prospect. Asked about the possiblity of trading Bradley, he replied:

"I don't see that happening. Not that anybody is untouchable, but we're hoping he's our David Price, and we can control him [for several years].*He's gonna get every opportunity to crack our rotation this spring ... He's not looking to make our rotation as the fifth guy -- he's looking to make it as the ace."

Can't say I dislike anything being reported there... Would suck to see Skaggs leave, however, I'm a realist... If we want high-quality to come in a trade, we're gonna have to give quality in return.
GO KT!!!

 

[Diamondback Jay]

I also like how he essentially said he's not trading Bradley, which should put everyone's minds at ease. Agree too, gonna have to give something of value to get something.

 

[Phrazbit]

Take a breath dude... Seriously, close your eyes and breath deeply and slowly... Keep going.... Keep going...

Ok, feel better? No? Well, let me try this one last time - though, I have zero hope that you'll be able to overcome your KT hysteria...

The Dbacks are not the Yankees, right?? Can we agree on that? Can we agree that with a $100 million payroll, that KT doesn't have the luxury of attracting bigtime, perennial all-star free agents? Right?
So, when dealing with that situation, there are times when you have to simply take a shot. $5 million on a guy like Bell was not over the top or dramatically above market. In hindsight, Bell crapped the bed... But, from 2007 - 2011, Bell was one of the best relievers in the game. And to get him for $5 million was not a "sucky" move...

As for my kid pooping on the floor... Yea, my kid makes a mistake every once and a while. And I LOVE it when he takes the responsibility for it and cleans it up, rather than let it sit there and continue to stink things up.
So, while you seem to believe that KT should be God-like... some type of all-knowing, perfect and flawless being, the reality is that all GM's whiff from time to time. He whiffed on Bell. And then he cleaned up his poop. And if by cleaning up his poop means that he had to use a rag like Holmberg - which you clearly seem to believe was on track for super-stardom - so be it. We are $5.5 million better off than we were a few days ago.

That's all I got dude... Go Dbacks!!!

Again, I am not expecting perfection, but to think KT has merely been "not perfect" is laughable.

And I realize we are not the Yankees... so how can you stand by KT after all his repeated blunders on high priced acquisitions (Cahill, Bell, McCarthy, Kubel, Ross). Its not like Bell is the first time KT screwed up on an 8 figure transaction.

But hey, I guess its asking "perfection" to hope my GM does not piss away half the teams budget on players he would be lucky to give away 12 months later...

And honestly, you can claim my hate is over the top, but you lose all credibility to call someone else biased when you somehow attempt to argue that getting Bell was a GOOD move financially, then also claim that dumping him with a prospect was a GOOD move because it got us out of his supposedly cap friendly contract. Seriously. Trying to argue both sides of that coin is an absurd stance.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Again, I am not expecting perfection, but to think KT has merely been "not perfect" is laughable.

And I realize we are not the Yankees... so how can you stand by KT after all his repeated blunders on high priced acquisitions (Cahill, Bell, McCarthy, Kubel, Ross). Its not like Bell is the first time KT screwed up on an 8 figure transaction.

But hey, I guess its asking "perfection" to hope my GM does not piss away half the teams budget on players he would be lucky to give away 12 months later...

And honestly, you can claim my hate is over the top, but you lose all credibility to call someone else biased when you somehow attempt to argue that getting Bell was a GOOD move financially, then also claim that dumping him with a prospect was a GOOD move because it got us out of his supposedly cap friendly contract. Seriously. Trying to argue both sides of that coin is an absurd stance.

Not sure why I do this... but...

Never said getting Bell was a "good" move. I said his contract wasn't a "bad/sucky" contract.
But yes - taking responsibility and cleaning up your poop/mistake is a good thing.

As for KT himself - and DWKB would support this - I have always maintained that 2014 is the year, for me, where I will place him squarely under the microscope. From drafts, to trades and free agent signings, I have always felt and said that his 3rd season as our GM would be the time where we can most fairly judge his moves and their impact on the franchise.
So, I am not a KT apologist. I am a realist who understands the reality of working with a constricted payroll.
Doesn't mean he can't be succesful. Just means it's more difficult and that more often than other higher payroll teams, you need to take chances.
Anyway... 2014 is the season where I will be much more critical of KT if/when I feel it's warranted.

 

[Phrazbit]

Again, I dont see how you can praise KT for getting rid of Bell's contract (and dumping a top 10 prospect in our organization in the process), and on the same hand say that Bell had, arguably, an undervalued contract.

If you dont want to assume the title of an apologist then fine, but I dont know what else to call you when you're claiming Bell was on a good contract so KT trading for him was not dumb, then saying Bell had a bad contract and KT deserves praise for getting rid of it. You cant have it both ways.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Yet another clarification....

Bell's contract wasn't bad. I applaud KT for making the move to trade Bell not because he dumped a bad contract, but because he dumped an ineffective player. And in so doing, we freed up $5.5 million.

This getting fun... Keep going.


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[overseascardfan]

D-Backs Looking To Trade Market For Ace, Power Bats
By Steve Adams [December 4 at 3:30pm CST]
3:30pm:*The Diamondbacks may also be looking to the trade market for power bats, according to a recent series of tweets from Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. Rosenthal reports that the D-Backs and A's recently discussed a trade that would send Yoenis Cespedes to Arizona in exchange for Tyler Skaggs, A.J. Pollock and others. Both sides have cooled on the idea and backed off the trade at this time, however, and the A's would only trade Cespedes for a "monster" return, according to Rosenthal. Still, as he points out, it serves as an example that the Diamondbacks will be aggressive and creative in their search for a power bat in the outfield.

1:54pm:*The Diamondbacks are motivated to swing a trade for an ace-caliber pitcher, reports ESPN's Jerry Crasnick. Crasnick spoke with Arizona GM Kevin Towers, president/CEO Derrick Hall and owner Ken Kendrick in an excellent, in-depth breakdown of the situation. While Towers was quick to say that no player is untouchable, he sounded loath to part with prized pitching prospect Archie Bradley, a consensus Top 10 MLB prospect. Asked about the possiblity of trading Bradley, he replied:

"I don't see that happening. Not that anybody is untouchable, but we're hoping he's our David Price, and we can control him [for several years].*He's gonna get every opportunity to crack our rotation this spring ... He's not looking to make our rotation as the fifth guy -- he's looking to make it as the ace."

Unless OAK is throwing in a SP then I say no way. Maybe for Pollock and some mid level prospects but leave Skaggs out. I've read OAK is looking to deal Brett Anderson but his medical history is very alarming. If Anderson is good to go then hopefully Towers is insisting he be included.

 

[Phrazbit]

Yet another clarification....

Bell's contract wasn't bad. I applaud KT for making the move to trade Bell not because he dumped a bad contract, but because he dumped an ineffective player. And in so doing, we freed up $5.5 million.

This getting fun... Keep going.


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Bell's contract was "not bad"... yet KT had to pair him with a prospect just to get rid of him... and you applaud him for that?

I can't imagine why that line of thinking needed clarification...