Reflections on the Pick and Roll

[George O'Brien]

Several commentators have noted that both Diaw and Stoudemire do well working from the elbow, which is primarily due to the way Nash runs the pick and roll. Since both can't be in the same spot at the same time, it is argued that this presents a potential for conflict.

As a general rule, I think most Suns fans have assume that the Suns would use Amare at the elbow like he did in 2004-05, while Boris would be used on the wing or the corner. I think there is at least a possibility that the roles might be reversed.

There are several reasons why this MIGHT happen. The most important would be if the rumors are true that Amare has become a very good three point shooter. By contrast, Boris is not much of a three point threat.

Boris has emerged as a pretty good shooter, but his range is limited. Last season he hit just 23 of 106 three point shots. His stats in the playoffs look great (42.9%), but that was only 3 of 7 in 20 games. Right now, Boris is like KT who is a very good mid range shooter (but KT has taken only 26 three pointers in his entire career). Looking at the stat would give the same impression for Stoudemire, but Amare has spent much of the last year working on his outside shooting.

If Amare has become a serious three point threat, then it would make sense to have the Suns run the pick and roll with Diaw while putting Amare in the corner (and perhaps Bell in the other corner). Whichever corner defender comes back to help on the pick and roll would leave a three point shooter wide open. By using Boris on the pick and roll, not only can Boris finish, but he's a serious threat to pass to the open shooter.

If Amare returns to his full explosiveness, then he'll probably be the pick and roll guy. But if he starts the season a step slower yet has three point range, using him in the corner could be very effective. Think TT but better at attacking the basket.

 

[Espo]

I like this thinking. It seems to me that with Amare's possible lack of explossiveness a "TT" type role might work while. If Amare's jumper is anything like they say have been saying he could be killer in the role you described. It would make the offense even more dynamic than before.

 

[green machine]

Nothing against the idea guys, but something in me just hates the thought of Amare camping out at the three point line. Maybe it's because that makes it less likely to see a thunderous dunk, but I don't want to see Amare go Marion on us and just wait for the three. I want the aggressive, attacking Amare who strikes fear into the hearts of defenses.

 

[Espo]

Nothing against the idea guys, but something in me just hates the thought of Amare camping out at the three point line. Maybe it's because that makes it less likely to see a thunderous dunk, but I don't want to see Amare go Marion on us and just wait for the three. I want the aggressive, attacking Amare who strikes fear into the hearts of defenses.

Ok two bad knees make it less likely to see a thunderous dunk not his possitioning on the court. I think this is a good option until he is fully recovered later in the season. Plus Amare could make things happen from the wing just as easy as at the top of the key. I think this is probably the best option if Amare comes out playing more similar to the one we saw in March than the one we saw in 2004

 

[Errntknght]

Just before Amare got injured they were talking about him developing a good corner three point shot but I'm not sure because I don't recall any talk of him shooting that shot in the summer leagues. Could be they were saving it for prime time but it also could be its not ready for prime time yet. If it is and he needs to ease back into things it makes sense to play him at the wing and let Marion flit around inside like he did last year - run his fake pick & roll with Boris a bit.

However it shakes out I expect to see Boris setting up at the left elbow as he did almost every time down the floor, the latter part of last year. Its not a problem even if Amare is ready to go with his drives - there are two elbows and Amare did as well from the right one as he did the left. Yep, the double high post which I predicted we'd wind up using this next year at the beginning of the summer. Its a perfect setup for the two of them because neither's defender can help on the other with that much separation and neither will be in great position to help on anyone else without leaving his man wide open and spotted up within range - or free to head to the rim.

Personally, I hope we see a lot less of the P&R this year but it works just fine from the double elbow set - either Boris or Amare steps out a bit and away they go. In fact they may be able to run a play where Boris sets the pick and Amare rolls to the hoop if his man starts trying to help or even 'peeks'.

 

[George O'Brien]

Can't say I've seen anybody with a double elbow (sorry about that), but in any case it seems to violate the D'Antoni's law - "spread the floor and shoot a lot threes".

As I said, there a lot of "ifs" involved in this. If Amare can move but not super quick, if Amare has developed a consistent three, if Boris attacks the basket more forcefully, etc. then this might be a workable option.

It is just as likely Amare will continue to run the pick and roll for one major reasons. Amare has amazing hands and it is almost impossible to knock the ball of it. This makes him a frightening threat to opponets who can't keep him from scoring even if they foul him.

We'll see.

 

[Errntknght]

George, "Can't say I've seen anybody with a double elbow (sorry about that), but in any case it seems to violate the D'Antoni's law - "spread the floor and shoot a lot threes"."

The Kings used a double high post set up in times past. Unless Amare has extended his range to include 3s, any time the Suns have two among Stoudemire, Diaw, Thomas, Marks or Burke on the floor they aren't going to be able to spread the floor more than they'd get with a double high post. I certainly don't imagine D'Antoni is salivating over the thought of using a double high post but once Amare regains his effectiveness setting up at the elbow I think it will happen on its own. Heck, its entirely possible that Mike will not even think of the possibility of such a setup until the guys start doing it. There is no question that Mike is still thinking in terms of spreading the floor with 3 pt shooters - Jumaine and Pike are both long range gunners and I'm sure it wasn't lost on him that Banks shot 35% on 3s last year, though with a low freqency.


"It is just as likely Amare will continue to run the pick and roll for one major reasons. Amare has amazing hands and it is almost impossible to knock the ball of it. This makes him a frightening threat to opponets who can't keep him from scoring even if they foul him."

You'll note that I said I hoped we'd see less of the P&R - not that I thought D'Antoni would reduce the emphasis on it. The guy is innovative in the sense that he doesn't use a typical NBA offense, but he really only has three ideas - run the ball, spread the floor with 3pt shooters and operate the P&R. We all talk about how unpredictable the Suns are but in many ways they are very predictable - nobody but KT will set an off ball screen, no one is going to cut without the ball, no one is going to back-door their defender and no one is going to use the baseline. Their unpredictability is entirely due to Nash. I'm just harboring the hope (albeit faint) that if the guys start using a double high post because that's the way they naturally want to play, that D'Antoni will stumble onto the value of it and develope options that work off it.

Its obviously not fashionable to criticiize D'Antoni for his offensive schemes but in leaving out the classic elements I mentioned above along with set plays, he has thrown the baby out with the bath water.

 

[George O'Brien]

One of the reasons for using Diaw at the high post is that he's more inclined to hit cutters than anyone else. I would not be surprised if he had as many assists to Marion as Nash and may be better at the alley oop play.

Back to Nash, the one "play" he runs is what I call "wander about" where dribbles around and under the basket and forces the opposition to chase him into odd angles. Defenders lose sight of either the player's man or the ball, thus opening up shots. It is so unlike anything anyone else does that it is hard to give it name.

In any case, I think we'll see more off the ball movement this year. The last two years were dominated by new people. This year the turnover has not been so large, so they don't have to start from scratch.

 

[Errntknght]

George, "One of the reasons for using Diaw at the high post is that he's more inclined to hit cutters than anyone else."

Gee, George, do you think that might be why I disagreed with your contention that Boris might be used on the wing or the corner as well as at the elbow? Boris shoots reasonably well from there, though he didn't when last season began; he can drive from the left elbow - but not the right one because so far he only drives right; and it is an excellent position to pass to cutters. In the terminology of the Princeton offense he is a 'triple threat' at the high post.

"In any case, I think we'll see more off the ball movement this year. The last two years were dominated by new people. This year the turnover has not been so large, so they don't have to start from scratch."

I can't see why no new guys make it likely we'll see more off ball movement - its not like we have anyone returning who is much inclined to do it. Raja, James Jones, and Barbosa are absolutely pitiful at it. Marion is the best we have and he doesn't really cut much, he darts around looking for open spots and every couple of weeks he'll slice in for a dunk off a lob pass. Nash is our second best cutter and the only time he does it is when he works a 'give and go' with Boris. Heck, our best hope for a cutter is among the new guys - at least it is for me because I haven't watched them enough to know they don't have a clue how to do it.

I also have a faint hope that Amare and Boris in a double high post will keep the area around the basket relatively unguarded and that should encourage players to cut even if they've never done it much before and the coach doesn't urge them to do it - the evidence thus far is that D'Antoni does not.

 

[CaptainInsano]

Well there is not much cutting if nobody finishes near the basket strong and last year with Diaw and Barbosa firing up layups all the time.

Amare seems to like to take the 10-15 ft jumpshot now so I doubt we will see much cutting from him in off the ball movement though I am really excited about seeing some sick pick n pops between Nash and Amare. I think that actually might not be a huge negative from the inside-beast Amare of old.

Now Marion and Barbosa will always be dunking/driving to the hoop while Amare has the 10-15 ft range on high alert and obviously we will be artillary chucking three pointers. So now the whole area of the half-court will be a danger zone for our opponents when we are on offense because unless I have a vague memory the 10-15 ft area was not much of an area we were a threat from last year.

It gives hope that even without a dunking monstrous Amare, our superstar still will provide a much needed boost to a part that was lacking in our offense and with him covering it we will be brutal. Remember how effective Joe Johnson was in our offense with that gravy 10-15 footer?

Yeah kinda like that.