ReHashed Trade Rumors

[Irish]

The reactions of "that's nothing new" is probably relevant. What is interesting is how they tend to contradict themsleves.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3455824&name=broussard_chris

Suns ready to make a move?
Saturday, June 21, 2008 | Feedback | Print Entry


Sources say the Phoenix Suns appear poised to make a draft day deal.
They are talking with Toronto about sending Boris Diaw to the Raptors for T.J. Ford and the 17th pick in Thursday's draft. Ford, who would back up Steve Nash, played for new Suns coach Terry Porter in Milwaukee from 2003 to 2005.

The Suns are also considering a trade with Portland in which they would send Leandro Barbosa to the Blazers for Martell Webster and the 13th pick of this year's draft.
Only one, if any, of those trades will happen.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/b..._a_summer_sequel_because_kobe_bry.html?page=1

Toronto is looking to make a deal for Phoenix's Boris Diaw and has talked to the Suns. But Phoenix has no interest in Raptorspoint guard T.J. Ford or anyone else on Toronto's roster. While Toronto tries to get a third team involved, the Suns appear open to moving Diaw. President Steve Kerr and others have been privately questioning Diaw's commitment to basketball. ...

Except maybe Bosh...

It's hard to see how anything can be made of all this. Toronto is the only team that seems interested in Diaw, but that might just be that they will do anything to move Ford as the price of keeping Calderon.

Here is another item about Portland.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/b..._a_summer_sequel_because_kobe_bry.html?page=2

Portland is shopping its pick (No. 13), hoping to include it in a package with G Jarrett Jack and Travis Outlaw for a veteran shooter, such as Memphis' Mike Miller.

Miller gets $9 million this year. The Blazers would have to give up a lot of people to make that deal work.

Rumor is that the Cavs would like to move up to get the Blazer's #13, but it is not clear they have what the Blazers want. Wally's too expensive and had a poor year. Gibson is an RFA.

So the Barbosa deal fits financially and Leandro is a shooter. I find it hard to believe it would work out that wa, but #13, Webster and Jack is a lot for a guy who is not much of a defender.

A three way deal with the Suns, Portland, and Toronto seems totally impossible since Portland would not want Ford and Toronto does not have any shooters other than Calderon and Kapono.

 

[Andrew]

Ford would be a nice backup...

 

[overseascardfan]

I would do both trades, call me crazy. Of course the POR deal wouldn't include Jack if we get Ford from TOR. Both deals get us everything we need this offseason.

Back up PG (Ford), who will eventually replace Nash

Young wing who can shoot (Webster)

Cap relief (Diaw & Barbosa)

Young talent through draft (#13, #15, #17), one could end up being a back up C (Speights), and front court depth at PF (Arthur) and a starting SF (Rush)

 

[mojorizen7]

The Suns are also considering a trade with Portland in which they would send Leandro Barbosa to the Blazers for Martell Webster and the 13th pick of this year's draft.

DEAL

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[Chaplin]

Of course, assuming we lost Giricek, we lose any kind of scoring threat from the bench whatsoever.

 

[jlove]

Of course, assuming we lost Giricek, we lose any kind of scoring threat from the bench whatsoever.

How is that? Webster shoots just as well from 3 as Barbosa does. Especially in our spread the floor offense Webster would get some phenomenally open looks. Portland plays a half-court game and Webster shot 123/317 for 39%. Barbosa in a spread the floor offense shot 164/422 for 39%. You give Webster (who can play the 2 and the 3 spots) the looks Barbosa took and he shoots more 3's.

On top of that IF, and I repeat IF, we do the trades and draft Rush, there's another shooter/defender to open the floor. However, If both these trades goes through, I'd use ALL 3 picks to grab bigs (4/5 types in the likes of Thompson, Hickson, Speights, Ajinca, Koufos, R. Lopez, Greene, Arthur, Ibaka, Jawai), because our big man depth would be hurting. Then resign Skinner for 14 players on our roster. If Portland does Outlaw/Jack/#13 instead of Webster/Jack/#13 then draft 2 bigs and Rush to back-up at 3.

With both trades we'd have:
Nash/Ford/Jack
Bell/Strawberry
Hill/Webster/Tucker
Amare/#13/#17
Shaq/Skinner/#15

We'd still have a very diverse roster.
Bell: 2/3
Hill: 2/3
Strawberry: 1/2/3
Tucker: 2/3

depending on trade:
Webster: 2/3
Outlaw: 3/4

 

[mojorizen7]

Webster can score,but the SUNS would have to plug-in at least one of the two 1st round draft picks immediately into the rotation. I hope our scouting dept has been burning the midnite lamp.

 

[jlove]

However, depending on what's the truth about the Toronto deal, we still may have Diaw instead of Ford and #17. Which for me is still Ok. A Portland/Barbosa deal is almost a must for me, especially with my hopes being so high as far as team impact of all players reportedly involved for both teams. Both teams get better drastically with the deal.

 

[Chaplin]

How is that? Webster shoots just as well from 3 as Barbosa does. Especially in our spread the floor offense Webster would get some phenomenally open looks. Portland plays a half-court game and Webster shot 123/317 for 39%. Barbosa in a spread the floor offense shot 164/422 for 39%. You give Webster (who can play the 2 and the 3 spots) the looks Barbosa took and he shoots more 3's.

Wishful thinking 101. To assume that Martell Webster would compensate for a former 6th man of the year is borderline at best. Percentages don't mean jack. Pike shoots well from the 3-point line, that doesn't make him a viable replacement for Leandro Barbosa.

What is it that people don't understand about LB being one of the top 3 scorers off the bench? That is a valuable commodity, and probably more valuable that Martell Webster and the #13 pick.

 

[Irish]

I don't like the Ford deal even though I share their frustration with Boris. It certainly sounds like this is entirely BC's idea.

The Portland deal is intriguing only becaus it is a one for three assuming you like Jarrett Jack. Webster is is NOT a replacement for Barbosa although he's nice for depth. I'd have to know who the #13 is going to be.

I think Chap is right in the sense that we should not judge Leandro based on how he does against the Spurs. There is no reason to believe that anybody in this collection of players will do better. Still, it is not an unreasonable deal from the Suns perspective.

 

[Mainstreet]

Wishful thinking 101. To assume that Martell Webster would compensate for a former 6th man of the year is borderline at best. Percentages don't mean jack. Pike shoots well from the 3-point line, that doesn't make him a viable replacement for Leandro Barbosa.

What is it that people don't understand about LB being one of the top 3 scorers off the bench? That is a valuable commodity, and probably more valuable that Martell Webster and the #13 pick.

I think many fans are still looking at Barbosa through a PG prism. He most definitely is not a PG. However, he can be a great 3 point shooter and a slasher to the basket. If he is used as a SG off the bench, I see no reason he cannot score near 20 points a night. Again, I think having Barbosa play a PG role messes with his instincts.

 

[Ballamania]

i like webster and he can definitely shoot. no he's not as explosive as LB but he has better size and his 3 point ability sets him up for the rest of his game.getting the pick to me would balance out losing LB too.i've watched webster quite a few times and he would be a nice get. i also have enjoyed barbosa but that playoff crap IS important cuz the suns are always IN the playoffs and there is no need to be all excited about what LB does during the season if you're only getting 60% of that during the playoffs.its all about winning and performing when its most important and as much as i like him, its just not happeneing like it should when needed and he damn sure has had opportunities.

 

[scoutmasterdave]

LB is a base-year compensation (BYC) player until after the July trade moratorium. So, unless the Suns get creative, he isn't going anywhere until at least then.

 

[Bigdez22]

If we trade Boris for Ford and the 17

Then we cant be cheap this offseason. We have to go out and and use that MLE on a good 3. draft Rush and a big like McGee,lopez,speights and use the MLE on someone who can play the 3

If all you do is give up Diaw and add three players who will play.....I am all for it.

Nash/Ford
Bell/LB/Rush
Hill/ML/Rush
Stat/17
Shaq/17/Skinner

 

[The Commish]

LB is a base-year compensation (BYC) player until after the July trade moratorium. So, unless the Suns get creative, he isn't going anywhere until at least then.

Draft day trades can be consummated after July 1st.

 

[Chaplin]

LB is a base-year compensation (BYC) player until after the July trade moratorium. So, unless the Suns get creative, he isn't going anywhere until at least then.

Well, that's in less than 2 weeks, so I don't know what the big deal is.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

The big deal was he was under the assumption that a draft day trade would have to follow the CBA for this season (making a trade near impossible), not taking into account the concept that the deal can be agreed to and partially done on draft day with subsequent dealings done later.

 

[DevonCardsFan]

Miller gets $9 million this year. The Blazers would have to give up a lot of people to make that deal work.

Miller would be my choice, I would give up Diaw for Miller, to Have Amare, Miller and Shaq as you 3, Miller would have wide open looks all day!

 

[scoutmasterdave]

The big deal was he was under the assumption that a draft day trade would have to follow the CBA for this season (making a trade near impossible), not taking into account the concept that the deal can be agreed to and partially done on draft day with subsequent dealings done later.

Correct - my brain isn't working today.

 

[HooverDam]

Kerr's a bigger idiot than I thought if he doesn't do the Toronto deal. You get rid of a guy who shows no effort for a first round pick and an excellent backup PG, why not do that? Sure Ford whined backing up Calderon after he was brought in to start, but knowing he's coming in to back up a 2 time MVP, I'd hope he'd be a bit more mature.

Like the article said, I doubt both deals happen, and I'd be glad about that. I really don't like the Portland deal. You make a major downgrade by moving LB for Webster (though Websters a nice player, he's no LB). If Diaw stays, you'd have to play Webster more in LBs role, and I don't think he's a great fit there. LB in my eyes is perfect at what he does. He's high energy, scores in bunches, and is still young.

My hope is that the Toronto deal happens, and the Suns roster looks like this next year:

Shaq/#15 or 17
Amare/Skinner
Hill/#15 or 17/Giricek/Tucker
Bell/Barbosa/Giricek/Strawberry
Nash/Ford/Strawberry

Then, use the #15 on Rush. Good defender, health is getting better, can shoot the 3, sounds like the ideal 3 man for the Suns. Plus, he's a safe pick, very low bust potential.

With #17 I think the Suns could roll the dice on a big. Ideally, DeAndre Jordan would still be available (and some mocks have him being there still). He'd be tutored by O'Neal and Cartwright, which would be great for him. If he's gone McGee and Koufous would also be ok picks by me.

EDIT: Also, I just had the though ,the Suns could take Jordan w/ 15 if they thought Philly wanted to go for a big man w/ 16. If they are confident they won't take Rush, the Suns could then take him w/ 17.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Having Shaq and Cartwright to tutor a high potential big would be a great plan. If shaq cant motivate DeAndrea to be DeAndre then I dont know who could.

 

[JoRain]

Kerr's a bigger idiot than I thought if he doesn't do the Toronto deal. You get rid of a guy who shows no effort for a first round pick and an excellent backup PG, why not do that? Sure Ford whined backing up Calderon after he was brought in to start, but knowing he's coming in to back up a 2 time MVP, I'd hope he'd be a bit more mature.

Kerr is not an idiot. At least not for passing on this trade. Switch Ford for Calderon and it might be a different story, but with Ford...
Whining is just one thing. From what I have read, the guy thinks he is one of the top PG in the league and he don't want to back up nobody. It's only my opinion but I don't think backing up Nash instead of Calderon would be much of a difference with Ford.

The real thing that is scary about Ford is his injury problems. He's like a ticking time bomb. A harder foul or contact going to hoop might paralize him.

I wouldn't give Diaw away for such a player and late teens pick. Diaw is worth more.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Regardless of TJ Ford's alleged attitude, he has to see the situation in phoenix is much different. If anything he sees calderon as a slower and lesser scorer than him, and it is understandable that he wouldnt want to backup someone he sees as less or equal to himself.

In phoenix, not only would he be getting more and more minutes as nash takes more and more rest, he would be undoubted behind a better PG and would be fixed to take nash's role (and possibly his paycheck) in two years' time.

If the diaw trade goes down, TJ and I would welcome it with open arms, if for nothing other than it being an improvement for both his and the suns' current situation.

 

[HooverDam]

Kerr is not an idiot. At least not for passing on this trade. Switch Ford for Calderon and it might be a different story, but with Ford...
Whining is just one thing. From what I have read, the guy thinks he is one of the top PG in the league and he don't want to back up nobody. It's only my opinion but I don't think backing up Nash instead of Calderon would be much of a difference with Ford.

The real thing that is scary about Ford is his injury problems. He's like a ticking time bomb. A harder foul or contact going to hoop might paralize him.

I wouldn't give Diaw away for such a player and late teens pick. Diaw is worth more.

The only move Kerr has made to show me he isn't an idiot is hiring Terry Porter. However, that was a pretty obvious choice given the available candidates, so lets not give him too much credit.

Why is Ford a ticking time bomb with his injuries? Yes, he's had injuries, one was to his head, in an extremely freak accident that most likely won't happen again.

Sure, Ford doesn't want to back up Calderon, thats understandable since he was brought in thinking he'd be a starter. But to just automatically say he'd be a cancer because he's backing up a 2 time MVP and future Hall of Famer is beyond absurd. He's got a few years left on his deal, and is extremely young, he'll probably improve his game (and specifically his outside shooting, I hope). He could be the Suns PG of the future when Nash hangs it up.

Lets compare Diaw and Ford head to head in 07-08:

Ford...............Diaw
12.1 PPG.........8.8ppg
6.1APG...........3.9APG
2.0RPG...........4.6rpg
1.1spg............7spg
46%FG...........47%FG
88%FT............74%FT
29%3PT..........31%3PT
23.5MPG.........28MPG

So Ford scores and assists more in less minutes than Diaw. Unsurprisingly (since Diaw is 8 inches taller), Diaw has more rebounds. Diaws FG% one would assume would be much higher than Fords because he's a big that plays inside mostly, but that area is mostly a wash. Ford is a very good Free throw shooter, which would lead one to believe in the future he may be able to develop a 3 point shot.

I'd strongly consider trading Diaw for Ford straight up, and the Raptors want to throw in a pick! Sure the #17 pick isn't a great pick, but with as old as this team is, it gives the team the chance to roll the dice, and perhaps pick up a rotation player for the future (something they're currently very short on).

#17 isn't a pick where you're going to get a sure fire great player at all, but it is a place where you can usually get a rotation player. Heck, Jermaine O'Neal was a #17, David West was a #18, Josh Smith was a #17 and so was Danny Granger. So recent history shows there can be nice players in that range, I think this is definitely a move worth making for Phoenix. Call me crazy, but I'll gladly take a 24 year old PG, with experience running an up tempo offense that has 222 career starts.

EDIT: I think this trade is terribly unbalanced (in the Suns favor) thats why I love it, but lets ask some Raptors fans what they think:

What a Pheonix-homer Colangelo is. If this happens, **** the Raptors. Seriously.

That trade sucks ***. Way too much for Diaw. He's good but not good enough for TJ and pick. If Colangelo made that trade he should be looking for another line of work. Thats almost as bad as the VC trade.

I dunno, Colengelo came into this job with a huge reputation and did great at first, but recently he's made some questionable moves..... This trade would bring his reputation down alot

Not only is Diaw no where near what he was that "one", season, but he also has a pretty bad contract.

I think RAPS can do much better than this

This would only be a good trade if Phoenix gave us their 15th pick. I know Bryan Colangelo is crazy about European players but there's no way he'd do something that stupid.

#17 + Ford for Diaw is ridiculous. MAYBE if the trade was Ford for Diaw, it would make more sense for the raps...even that is a stretch. Diaw really doesn't fill in any of the raptors main needs.

If that's the only trades on the table, then I say keep TJ.

Not that the fans know everything (or anything most of the time), but its pretty clear to me that this trade would favor the Suns.

 

[Irish]

IMHO, if Porter REALLY likes Ford, they'd do it. He coached him and his team played against him a number of times over the past two years. Considering all, I'd have to wonder if Porter is the one saying "no". If he's saying "yes", then this would be a terrible way to start his tenure.