Report: Manny, Ortiz tested positive in 2003

[Ryanwb]

I think it would be sad if you were identified as a steroid user and you either sucked or did nothing of note.

 

[Mulli]

I think it would be sad if you were identified as a steroid user and you either sucked or did nothing of note.

Manny Alexander.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

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Gonzo played longer, in part due to modern medicine and conditioning (another reason its silly to compare eras) and thus more data

Maris' HR numbers by year: 14,28, 19, 16,39, 61,33,23, 26,8,13,9,5

Gonzos HR numbers by year: 0, 13, 10, 15, 8, 13, 7, 15, 10, 23, 26, 31, 57,28, 26,17, 24, 15, 15, 8

is that really that different? I think we can all agree Maris wasn't juicing. Now Maris' numbers decline due to injury and playing fewer games, but surely we can agree many players have had one year where in one statistical category they had a far superior year to any of their other years.

Gonzo may have been and he may not have been. But what does it matter? Does it make the memories of 2001 less special if he (and 90% of baseball) was juicing?

You can't compare eras anyway, so people who get all hung up on baseballs 'holy' records are just practicing an exercise in futility anyhow. In Ruths day he played against subpar athletes, only whites, they didn't have todays scouting capability and fewer people were playing the game. From Maris to Aarons day there were many of the same issues, inferior (to todays) athletes, facing the same pitcher 3 or 4 times a game, no Asians or Latinos (or very few), scouting wasn't as good, etc. Each era has pluses and minuses that make it harder or easier to hit (or do any specific athletic skill) in, its part of the changing times.

Just enjoy the games and get over the steroids thing, youll save yourself an ulcer.

Not quite sure what you are getting at here, that Gonzo and Roger Maris had similar career hr seasons? Awesome, I just don't think it means anything in regard to whether or not Gonzo took steroids.

It could be a fantastic coincidence or an unbelievable weight training program that turned Gonzo from an established gap hitter with little power to a 57 hr guy in the heart of the steroid era in baseball, but I don't think either of us is naive enough to believe that.

I disagree with you in saying that it doesn't matter at all, because it does matter. In one respect you can't really take anything that happened in that era seriously, I think that makes it matter a lot.

It seems that the vast majority of these guys were doing it, I just get annoyed by the constant denials, followed by the sulking and mock surprise when these idiots do get caught. How stupid do they think people are at this point?

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

There would be many players who would be no suprise, but I think there would be a few players that would be crushing to fans and the game if they tested positive.

Pujols
Schilling
Randy Johnson
Ken Griffey Jr (just because so many people have said there was no way)
Greg Maddux
Ichiro

I'll add...

Frank Thomas
Chipper Jones
John Smoltz
Tom Glavine
Mike Piazza

 

[Mulli]

Did Maris' drop in production coincide with ramped up testing for PED's?

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

The Maris-Gonzo thing is of course utterly ridiculous. It took me all of 2 minutes of researching to find out that the American League expanded in 1961 so pitching was very diluted that season and led to an increase in HR's throughout the league. You also neglect to mention that Maris won the MVP the year prior to hitting 61. And that he was moved to hit in front of Mantle in 1961 who was truly the feared hitter in the Yankees lineup (Maris had exactly 0 intentional walks in 1961). Combine that with the ridiculous porch at Yankee Stadium back then and you have the perfect storm for Maris.

 

[Mulli]

The Maris-Gonzo thing is of course utterly ridiculous. It took me all of 2 minutes of researching to find out that the American League expanded in 1961 so pitching was very diluted that season and led to an increase in HR's throughout the league. You also neglect to mention that Maris won the MVP the year prior to hitting 61. And that he was moved to hit in front of Mantle in 1961 who was truly the feared hitter in the Yankees lineup (Maris had exactly 0 intentional walks in 1961). Combine that with the ridiculous porch at Yankee Stadium back then and you have the perfect storm for Maris.

Good points.

 

[DWKB]

A failure of Hoover's chart (which is nicely formatted, how did you do that?) that he even admits to is that playing time is not considered in the raw HR totals.

A better graph would be Age vs. HR rate (or AB/HR):


Added a 3-year trend chart.

 

[BC867]

Did Maris' drop in production coincide with ramped up testing for PED's?

Roger Maris was heavily resented, especially in the Big Apple, the year he broke Babe Ruth's record.

Clearly, hitting in front of Mantle is what got him to 50 HR's, let alone beyond 60.

And Maris was so introverted, and evidently insecure, that his hair started coming out in clumps due to the stress. It let to his premature death.

Fans, including the Gonzo haters on this board, don't want to see marginal, even marginally good, hitters get into the superstar realm for one season. They just haven't earned it.

I liked Gonzo as a Diamondback, but I also believe he didn't earn finishing with one more than Hack Wilson's long-standing NL record of 56.

I was hoping, as I voiced on D'back sites that preceeded ASFN, that Gonzo would not reach 60, and was relieved when he stopped at 57.

 

[HooverDam]

Not quite sure what you are getting at here

Wow, how much more clear do I have to make this. Lets give this a go:

PLAYERS HAVE CAREER SEASONS

Thats all. Many players have one year in which one statistic is an outlier compared to other years. It happened with Maris, it happened with Gonzo. It happens all the time.

It could be a fantastic coincidence or an unbelievable weight training program that turned Gonzo from an established gap hitter with little power to a 57 hr guy in the heart of the steroid era in baseball, but I don't think either of us is naive enough to believe that.

Well I believe in this whacky idea called 'innocent until proven guilt', you seem to be promoting the opposite. The only truth is neither of us know anything. If we took your "evidence" to court a judge would wet his robes laughing at you.

I disagree with you in saying that it doesn't matter at all, because it does matter. In one respect you can't really take anything that happened in that era seriously, I think that makes it matter a lot.

First off, its freaking baseball, why are you taking it seriously to begin with it? Its just entertainment. Do you get caught up with who wins Best Picture every year too? Sure it determines peoples pay checks, but their not people you know or actually effect your life. Tom Hanks may be your favorite actor, did you get upset when he didn't win Best Picture for APOLLO 13? The reason stats in sports are fun is the same reason knowing who won Best Picture in 1941 was, its trivia. It doesn't mean anything or have any tangible effect on your life.

Secondly, do you take Babe Ruths numbers "seriously"? I hope to hell not. His era had far more strikes on it than the current era. The "athletes" he played against all looked like my middle aged father, were 100% white, had little scouting, etc etc we've already gone over this.

It seems that the vast majority of these guys were doing it, I just get annoyed by the constant denials, followed by the sulking and mock surprise when these idiots do get caught. How stupid do they think people are at this point?

I agree. I wish they'd just release the entire list of 100 plus names so ESPN can go all ga ga over it for a month and then its over. I really don't care, what they did didn't effect or hurt me or anyone I know. It only entertained me.

The Maris-Gonzo thing is of course utterly ridiculous. It took me all of 2 minutes of researching to find out that the American League expanded in 1961 so pitching was very diluted that season and led to an increase in HR's throughout the league. You also neglect to mention that Maris won the MVP the year prior to hitting 61. And that he was moved to hit in front of Mantle in 1961 who was truly the feared hitter in the Yankees lineup (Maris had exactly 0 intentional walks in 1961). Combine that with the ridiculous porch at Yankee Stadium back then and you have the perfect storm for Maris.

Of course you should realize you're proving my point. There are different factors that lead to any players statistically great year. The short porch in the Bronx was a huge one for Maris, is that any more fair or unfair than using roids? Neither advantage was against the rules, was it?

People have this inexplicable hard on for comparing eras, especially in baseball. Maybe Ill just never get it, just watch the games, keep track of the stats because they're fun and because you're having fun. It doesn't 'mean' anything, its not the Berlin Wall coming down.

A failure of Hoover's chart (which is nicely formatted, how did you do that?) that he even admits to is that playing time is not considered in the raw HR totals.
.

I used the defualt graph on Apples iWork program, "Pages." The only point I was trying to make is many players will have one year or two years or whatever where they're 'in a zone' and blow up in one category or another. It happens all across sports. But you're correct, if you get into the nitty gritty SABRmetrics side of it, there are many difference as there will be with comparing any two players of vastly different eras (which again, is why its silly).

I only used Maris as an example because I happened to be looking at his numbers the other day and remembered noticing the sharp spike in HR production.