Richardson Wants Extension From Suns

[JCSunsfan]

Edwards was a true Center on defense and shot from the outside on offense.

You are right. We would have thought that he would satisfy the Suns history of having a fairly light (225 lb.) 7'0" Center locate 20 feet from the basket.

Why was Edwards traded? I don't remember him being given the clear chance to be our main Center playing alongside Alvan Adams from '82 to '88. Adams put up a lot of stats for the Suns through longevity, but was not a presence in the middle.

'Not too different than any Center having to battle now with Frye for playing time because of the contract investment the Suns have made in him.

Things change and things stay the same. Especially for the Suns in the post.

Hadn't Adams retired by the time Edwards was traded away. At 6-9, Adams was a better F than a C anyway.

 

[BC867]

Hadn't Adams retired by the time Edwards was traded away. At 6-9, Adams was a better F than a C anyway.

James Edwards was traded from the Cavs to the Suns during the '82-83 season, which was Adams 8th season with the Suns.

Edwards was traded to the Pistons during the '87-88 season. Alvan Adams retired as a Sun at the end of that same season.

During the six seasons they played together on the Suns (four full seasons), here are their comparisons of minutes per game, as well as games played.

.................ADAMS....EDWARDS..........ADAMS....EDWARDS
SEASON.......MPG..........MPG...............GAMES......GAMES
'82-83..........30.6..........17.8.................80.............16
'83-84..........20.7..........26.3.................72.............72
'84-85..........26.0..........25.5.................82.............70
'85-86..........25.7..........25.3.................78.............52
'86-87..........24.9..........21.7.................68.............14
'87-88..........20.1..........32.0.................82.............43

During their four full seasons together, Edwards averaged more MPG than Adams only once -- their first full season together in '83-84.

Adams, who should have been moved to Forward after his rookie season in '75-76, continued to be the main Center until he retired.

The Suns, throughout their history, would have been better off if Adams had not prospered as a novelty lightweight Center his rookie year.

He had a strangle-hold on the position for the next 12 years, especially with his college coach John MacLeod serving as his NBA head coach until 1987, when he was fired by the Suns.

And that legacy of playing soft at Center has haunted the Suns ever since. Right to the present time.

 

[JCSunsfan]

James Edwards was traded from the Cavs to the Suns during the '82-83 season, which was Adams 8th season with the Suns.

Edwards was traded to the Pistons during the '87-88 season. Alvan Adams retired as a Sun at the end of that same season.

During the six seasons they played together on the Suns (four full seasons), here are their comparisons of minutes per game, as well as games played.

.................ADAMS....EDWARDS..........ADAMS....EDWARDS
SEASON.......MPG..........MPG...............GAMES......GAMES
'82-83..........30.6..........17.8.................80.............16
'83-84..........20.7..........26.3.................72.............72
'84-85..........26.0..........25.5.................82.............70
'85-86..........25.7..........25.3.................78.............52
'86-87..........24.9..........21.7.................68.............14
'87-88..........20.1..........32.0.................82.............43

During their four full seasons together, Edwards averaged more MPG than Adams only once -- their first full season together in '83-84.

Adams, who should have been moved to Forward after his rookie season in '75-76, continued to be the main Center until he retired.

The Suns, throughout their history, would have been better off if Adams had not prospered as a novelty lightweight Center his rookie year.

He had a strangle-hold on the position for the next 12 years, especially with his college coach John MacLeod serving as his NBA head coach until 1987, when he was fired by the Suns.

And that legacy of playing soft at Center has haunted the Suns ever since. Right to the present time.

Interesting. Those years were my "fog" years" as a Suns fan. I was on the east coast for college and grad school and could hardly get any Suns news. They were never on TV and I couldn't even get box scores because the games were too late to make the paper. Ah, how the internet has changed the sports fan world.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Trouble is, how else are we going to aquire a big when our existing roster is made up almost entirely of "littles". Pray we get a #1 pick in the same year that a Hakeem/Duncan/Robinson is available? We won't have any free agent money for the next few years at least.

In recent years, there have been a number of helpful bigs that have changed teams that would have been helpful.

Gasol, Okafor, Chandler, etc.

The problem is when the Suns do get a defensive, rebounding big, they can hardly keep him on the floor because of foul trouble (Mark West, Anderew Lang)

 

[Trifecta]

In recent years, there have been a number of helpful bigs that have changed teams that would have been helpful.

Gasol, Okafor, Chandler, etc.

The problem is when the Suns do get a defensive, rebounding big, they can hardly keep him on the floor because of foul trouble (Mark West, Anderew Lang)

Its a pretty small list, two of those guys were drafted 10 or so years ago, and Chandler was useless his first few years. I know there are others you haven't named, but for every one of those there are 2 or 3 Hasheem Thabeets and Michael Olowokandis, so a high lottery pick doesn't guarantee you can land a decent big, unless you're lucky and have Tim Duncan fall into your lap.

 

[sunsfan88]

In recent years, there have been a number of helpful bigs that have changed teams that would have been helpful.

Gasol, Okafor, Chandler, etc.

The problem is when the Suns do get a defensive, rebounding big, they can hardly keep him on the floor because of foul trouble (Mark West, Anderew Lang)

You forgot Haywood, Amare, Lee, Jefferson, Boozer, and Camby.

But I assume those are who you meant by "etc"

 

[JCSunsfan]

You forgot Haywood, Amare, Lee, Jefferson, Boozer, and Camby.

But I assume those are who you meant by "etc"

Yes, its the lazy way of adding to the list. I wouldn't put Amare in the defensive/rebounding category though. Jefferson would be practically useless with the Suns. He is big and strong, but so slow. Camby and Lee would be nice.

 

[Irish]

I'm not sure why it seems like the Suns are always failing to get useful big men, but I have some theories.

1. Not many high picks. Amare was a ninth pick and there were a some stiffs taken ahead of him, but it is hard to be sure of quality unless the pick is much higher and even then there have been blunders.

2. Team has limited patience. A lot of bigs take a long time to get good and thes don't like the wait and their fans are worse.

3. Suns don't like guys who are a liability on offense. Part of the Colangelo mantra was to have a team that could score against anyone and run with everyone. Amundson was a weak offensive player, so they did not try to re-sign him.

4. Suns hate overpaying mediocre bigs. This is huge problem when dealing with free agents.

5. Suns prefer skill players over one dimensional tough guys. Diaw was and is very skilled, but always hed subpar rebounding numbers. But with skill at handling the ball, posting up, shooting (sort of), etc. he got an expensive contract. His rebounding is a career 0.16 per minute.

6. Suns bigs always get into foul trouble. It is notable that guys like bad boy Pistons had lots of bigs. The Suns end up guys who are given a mixed message, ie "play tough, physical defense but don't foul". Lack of depth maks them passive.


It's frustrating.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'm not sure why it seems like the Suns are always failing to get useful big men, but I have some theories.

1. Not many high picks. Amare was a ninth pick and there were a some stiffs taken ahead of him, but it is hard to be sure of quality unless the pick is much higher and even then there have been blunders.

2. Team has limited patience. A lot of bigs take a long time to get good and thes don't like the wait and their fans are worse.

3. Suns don't like guys who are a liability on offense. Part of the Colangelo mantra was to have a team that could score against anyone and run with everyone. Amundson was a weak offensive player, so they did not try to re-sign him.

4. Suns hate overpaying mediocre bigs. This is huge problem when dealing with free agents.

5. Suns prefer skill players over one dimensional tough guys. Diaw was and is very skilled, but always hed subpar rebounding numbers. But with skill at handling the ball, posting up, shooting (sort of), etc. he got an expensive contract. His rebounding is a career 0.16 per minute.

6. Suns bigs always get into foul trouble. It is notable that guys like bad boy Pistons had lots of bigs. The Suns end up guys who are given a mixed message, ie "play tough, physical defense but don't foul". Lack of debt maks them passive.


It's frustrating.

1. Yes.
2. Yes, under DAntoni. They worked hard to draft and develop bigs outide of those years.
3. No. They have signed a number of offensive liability players. Mark West, Andrew Lang, Luc Longley, Big Jake etc. Some they kept and were productive, others flopped

4. I do not think this is that much of a factor
5. No.
6. Definitely
7. They are in love with "bigs' who aren't big (Barkley, Xavier McDaniel, even Alvan Adams) or bigs who play small (Tom Chambers, Danny Manning)
8. They have really done a poor job scouting bigs in the draft and have no confidence picking them. They took that shooting guard in the draft from Stanford over Boozer.

9. Their running offense leaves alot of bigs in the dust. If they cannot move, they will not be very helpful

Amare was the exeption

 

[Irish]

1. Yes.
2. Yes, under DAntoni. They worked hard to draft and develop bigs outide of those years.
3. No. They have signed a number of offensive liability players. Mark West, Andrew Lang, Luc Longley, Big Jake etc. Some they kept and were productive, others flopped

4. I do not think this is that much of a factor
5. No.
6. Definitely
7. They are in love with "bigs' who aren't big (Barkley, Xavier McDaniel, even Alvan Adams) or bigs who play small (Tom Chambers, Danny Manning)
8. They have really done a poor job scouting bigs in the draft and have no confidence picking them. They took that shooting guard in the draft from Stanford over Boozer.

9. Their running offense leaves alot of bigs in the dust. If they cannot move, they will not be very helpful

Amare was the exeption

4. Since we don't know who they wouldn't pay other than KT, it is hard to know. The number of opportunities they passed on make me wonder.

5. The skills preference was certainly a feature of the D'Antoni era, but there are a fair number of examples through the years. The absence of "tough guys" is pretty obvious lately, but I can't remember many guys who had that reputation even off the bench other than KT.

I agree with your other comments.

 

[Errntknght]

Back when the Suns had some high picks they signed this sad assortment of bigs: '85 Ed Pinckney at #10; '86 William Bedford #6 (absolute worst 1st rnd pick of all time, by any team); '87 Armon Gilliam #2 - looked like a bruiser but was quite dainty; '88 Tim Perry #7. In '90 they drafted Jayson Willliams (#21) (yes, the infamous one) who refused to report to the team.

Its pretty well known that the Suns drafted Stephen Jackson and let him go, but not so well known is that they also drafted Mark Eaton (failed to sign him) and Charles Jones (let him go). Jones was never anything like a star but he was a great post defender who lasted 17 years in the league.

In the very early years they didn't do so terribly picking bigs - Connie Hawkins, Alvan Adams, Gar Heard - but since 1976 they've only picked Larry Nance and Amare who were first rate - and Nance was picked as a SF. Behind them their best choices were Oliver Miller and Armon Gilliam.

 

[mojorizen7]

3. Suns don't like guys who are a liability on offense. Part of the Colangelo mantra was to have a team that could score against anyone and run with everyone. Amundson was a weak offensive player, so they did not try to re-sign him.

True and it's embedded in the culture here,unfortunately.

3. No. They have signed a number of offensive liability players. Mark West, Andrew Lang, Luc Longley, Big Jake etc. Some they kept and were productive, others flopped

Yes. Shall i list the overwhelming amount of offensive players the Suns have hung their hat on that are a liability on defense over the last 25 years? ....Or would you like to step back,look objectively at the big picture and change your statement?

 

[Errntknght]

4. I think there is something to say in Irish's favor here... last summer they worried about overpaying Amundson and several years ago they let Hunter go on the same grounds. Some people might put Jake Voskuhl in that category, too, but personally, I was rather glad to see the end of him. Of course they did overpay for Frye last summer - or so it seemed at the time.

For the most part, I'm glad they stay out of the bidding wars for mediocre FA bigs but it bugs me when they let guys go who are already on the team. (In Hunter's case, I don't think D'Antoni wanted him on the team at any price.)

 

[Superbone]

In the very early years they didn't do so terribly picking bigs - Connie Hawkins, Alvan Adams, Gar Heard - but since 1976 they've only picked Larry Nance and Amare who were first rate - and Nance was picked as a SF. Behind them their best choices were Oliver Miller and Armon Gilliam.

Gar Heard was aquired via trade.

 

[BC867]

In the very early years they didn't do so terribly picking bigs - Connie Hawkins, Alvan Adams, Gar Heard...

The Hawk was great; Adams was good (but out of position); and Heard was marginal (except for that one rainbow shot).

But Hawkins weighed 215 lbs.; Adams was 212 lbs.; and Heard was 219 lbs.

And that's been the Suns legacy for over forty years. 215, 212 and 219 is not "big".

Not then and not now.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The Hawk was great; Adams was good (but out of position); and Heard was marginal (except for that one rainbow shot).

But Hawkins weighed 215 lbs.; Adams was 212 lbs.; and Heard was 219 lbs.

And that's been the Suns legacy for over forty years. 215, 212 and 219 is not "big".

Not then and not now.

They really weren't all that undersized for that time. We didn't have Kareem or Wilt out there but there were a lot of forwards and centers throughout the 70's and even the 80's that were at or near the range of those guys. Moses Malone was listed at 6'10/215 lbs. for example and Wes Unseld did bring some beef but he excelled at 6'7 (tops).

The Alvan Adams of the 70's was not a problem, he was an asset. As the 80's came to be, he began to lose the advantage of his quickness and the center position continued to get bigger. By the time he retired he definitely wasn't big enough to play the position but he did just fine the first 5 or 6 years.

I don't think we've ever had enough size though so in the main, I agree with you. You can have a slight center if your power forward brings a little girth but you can't put two undersized guys out there and expect to thrive. And as undersized as we've typically been at the starting power spots, we've been just as bad or worse with our bench guys.

Steve