Rookie watch

[sunsfan88]

Lopez also regressed. Lopez got twice the minutes in his rookie year, that Len has gotten this year. Its just apples and oranges.

Len is hardly at any "stage." He had no summer league, no training camp, no early season, and virtually no playing time . It would be wise to treat this season as an injury loss and look at him as a rookie next year.

I am sure there were alot of people in Indy calling Plumlee a bust last year. Good grief, just a little patience. Remember, big men just take time. It has always been that way.

I don't think Plumlee's done a whole lot to improve really. He still can't protect the rim except for the occasional highlight block, he's a terrible post player even though he tries to post up every game (I'll give him props for that) and his rebounding isn't anything to brag about either.

Maybe he isn't a bust I don't think he's special or anything more than below average really.

 

[Phrazbit]

Lopez also regressed. Lopez got twice the minutes in his rookie year, that Len has gotten this year. Its just apples and oranges.

Len is hardly at any "stage." He had no summer league, no training camp, no early season, and virtually no playing time . It would be wise to treat this season as an injury loss and look at him as a rookie next year.

I am sure there were alot of people in Indy calling Plumlee a bust last year. Good grief, just a little patience. Remember, big men just take time. It has always been that way.

Lopez got more minutes because he was more effective. If Len were playing at a similar level to Lopez as a rookie he would see as many minutes. And its worth noting Lopez was behind Shaq, its not like Len has some entrenched player blocking him from getting minutes. The reason he is not playing more is because he has played very poorly.

If people want to lay out a litany of excuses, which do have some validity, for his poor play and write of this season, fine. But it does not change that he has been lousy.

Len has gotten to play the majority of his minutes along side front line players, in those minutes he has rebounded at a solid rate, been absolutely awful on offense and outside of some blocks been very poor defensively too. The Suns as a team see their shooting percentage drop by an insane 7% when Len is on the court, this is because Len is useless in the post, hurts spacing and is very slow in transition, which is the Suns primary offensive attack. They score less points with him in and they give up more points with him on the court.

Will he get better? Hopefully. But to say he looks promising is blind faith. On the whole Len has looked awful so far. And while Eric is jumping the gun in proclaiming Len a bust, if given that leaning before the year Len's play has only reinforced the notion.

 

[elindholm]

Will he get better? Hopefully. But to say he looks promising is blind faith. On the whole Len has looked awful so far. And while Eric is jumping the gun in proclaiming Len a bust

Actually I said he is "most likely" a bust, which it sounds like you agree with.

 

[Mainstreet]

The only way Len is a bust if he cannot remain healthy. Otherwise he will develop into a nice starting NBA center within a few seasons or less.

 

[slinslin]

Len looked like a 20 year old raw center usually looks like.

Jonas V certainly did not look like much last year. Len needs to put up a lot of muscle in the offseason and just get stronger.

 

[sunsfan88]

Len with 3 blocks and 3 rebounds in 12 mins last night against one of the toughest front courts in the league.

I'd like to see him get more playing time instead of oulling him right after he makes a mistake or two.

I get it that we are the Suns and that we have always loved small ball but it's just hard to win in the NBA today (unless your Miami) without having a rim protector on the court.

 

[Catlover]

Len with 3 blocks and 3 rebounds in 12 mins last night against one of the toughest front courts in the league.

I'd like to see him get more playing time instead of oulling him right after he makes a mistake or two.

I get it that we are the Suns and that we have always loved small ball but it's just hard to win in the NBA today (unless your Miami) without having a rim protector on the court.

I don't suppose you could offer an example of this, could you? I must be missing it. It seems to me like Len makes plenty of errors during his stints on the court and I don't ever get the feeling that Jeff is yanking him as much as he's simply using his rotational players to give his starters some rest.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think Hornacek has been exceptionally patient with Len.

 

[sunsfan88]

I don't suppose you could offer an example of this, could you? I must be missing it. It seems to me like Len makes plenty of errors during his stints on the court and I don't ever get the feeling that Jeff is yanking him as much as he's simply using his rotational players to give his starters some rest.

No maybe not but I don't understand why we don't have either Plumlee or Len on the floor for all 48 mins of a game.

I think that's one of the reasons that we have such a pathetic defense..there's no rim protection.

 

[Catlover]

No maybe not but I don't understand why we don't have either Plumlee or Len on the floor for all 48 mins of a game.

I think that's one of the reasons that we have such a pathetic defense..there's no rim protection.

In the absence of a clear reason to the contrary, I tend to just relax and let the Coach do his job. I'm not suggesting that any of us really think we are changing reality with what we post but given that Jeff wants to win and he has access to far more information than we have, I'm comfortable most of the time without second guessing his actions. I don't know for sure why he's not playing Len more but I'll bet he has very good reasons for it. I'm sure Len is making a lot of mistakes that I don't even recognize as errors and even still, I can see some pretty obvious ones from him.

 

[BC867]

No maybe not but I don't understand why we don't have either Plumlee or Len on the floor for all 48 mins of a game.

I think that's one of the reasons that we have such a pathetic defense..there's no rim protection.

Because, for various reasons, neither Plum nor Len has produced at an NBA level so, as the games progress, Frye or Markieff are at Center.

That being said, I hate seeing Frye or Markieff at Center.

And that falls on the GM.

 

[Catlover]

Because, for various reasons, neither Plum nor Len has produced at an NBA level so, as the games progress, Frye or Markieff are at Center.

That being said, I hate seeing Frye or Markieff at Center.

And that falls on the GM.

It falls on history. What we were is not what we are and what we are is not what we are striving to become. We are in a rebuilding process and we gave up our center as a part of that process. If anything, it doesn't fall on the GM, it gets credited to him and the rest of the front office. I'm not happy with our center play right now but I'm happier about the future of that position than I have been in a very long time. I believe that Plumlee and Len will fill that position very nicely in a year or two but I'm equally confident that if they fall short, McDonough will find us someone better.

 

[Phrazbit]

No maybe not but I don't understand why we don't have either Plumlee or Len on the floor for all 48 mins of a game.

I would like to answer this without sounding like a sarcastic ass, but I doubt I could pull it off.

BC made a good effort though:

Because, for various reasons, neither Plum nor Len has produced at an NBA level so, as the games progress, Frye or Markieff are at Center.

That being said, I hate seeing Frye or Markieff at Center.

And that falls on the GM.

Not really fair to blame the current GM. McDonough did a remarkable job of flipping over a dreadful roster in a mere 3 months, I wont knock him in the slightest for not being able to fix ALL of the previous GMs mistakes.

But I agree with the first part. As lousy as Frye and Markieff have been, they been just good enough to help the Suns stay afloat. With Plumlee's inconsistency and Len's ineptitude it is a humorous notion to think them not getting enough PT is the root of our problems. Rather their Plumlee and Len are PART of the problem. It would be nice if we could play them a combined 48 minutes, but we cant, because too much of those minutes would be filled with suck.

 

[sunsfan88]

Because, for various reasons, neither Plum nor Len has produced at an NBA level so, as the games progress, Frye or Markieff are at Center.

That being said, I hate seeing Frye or Markieff at Center.

And that falls on the GM.

Yea I realize that Len & Plumlee are bad rim protectors but Frye & Kieff are awful rim protectors. So isn't it better to have bad than awful?

Plus Len & Plumlee could perhaps improve with the added playing time at the position where as Frye & Kieff are vets who have established themselves as PFs who won't even be much of a threat defensively.

 

[Catlover]

Yea I realize that Len & Plumlee are bad rim protectors but Frye & Kieff are awful rim protectors. So isn't it better to have bad than awful?

Plus Len & Plumlee could perhaps improve with the added playing time at the position where as Frye & Kieff are vets who have established themselves as PFs who won't even be much of a threat defensively.

There is so much more to defense than defending the rim and there is no way on this earth that Len is a better defender right now than Markieff or Frye. I like what Len does individually but he needs to add some strength and he needs an education on how to defend as part of a team. I know how much you hate Frye but he is a far, far, far, far better team defender than you give him credit for being. I'd be more inclined to sit Channing because his shot has disappeared than I would for his defensive effort. Also, Plumlee is 366 days older than that vet Markieff that you want to bench because he's so established.

I really have little interest in seeing this team make the playoffs this season but the Suns WANT to make the playoffs or at least strive for it. Taking time away from Markieff and giving it to Len or even Plumlee is counterproductive to that effort so it's probably not going to happen.

 

[sunsfan88]

There is so much more to defense than defending the rim and there is no way on this earth that Len is a better defender right now than Markieff or Frye. I like what Len does individually but he needs to add some strength and he needs an education on how to defend as part of a team. I know how much you hate Frye but he is a far, far, far, far better team defender than you give him credit for being. I'd be more inclined to sit Channing because his shot has disappeared than I would for his defensive effort. Also, Plumlee is 366 days older than that vet Markieff that you want to bench because he's so established.

I really have little interest in seeing this team make the playoffs this season but the Suns WANT to make the playoffs or at least strive for it. Taking time away from Markieff and giving it to Len or even Plumlee is counterproductive to that effort so it's probably not going to happen.

If you think Frye is even an average team defender, you have not been paying attention this season imo. Frye has on occassion played good indivudual defense (did it against Love in the game where Green hit the buzzer beater, did it to Griffin couple of times and did it against Dwight in the last Rockets game after Dwight abused Plumlee and Len) but he's a terrible team defender. As in he doesn't rotate well, is slow to recover and help and doesn't protect the rim if one of our guards let their man by them to the rim.

And it doesn't matter if Plumlee is older than him, Kieff is much more established than Plumlee. Kieff has played 3083 more minutes than Plumlee. Kieff has been in the league longer than Plumlee.

I absolutely want the team to make playoffs. I think being in "no man's land" which is best of the rest #14 would be the worst case scenario. If we weren't gonna make playoffs, might as well have tried to land a top 5 pick in what is supposed to be the best draft in ages.

But I think making playoffs even if it means getting swept 1st round would be a huge confidence boost for the team knowing that they are good enough to at least make the playoffs in a tough conference. Plus it would be an attraction to other FAs as well knowing that the Suns are now a playoff team under the new regime.

The players battled way too hard to miss it. I know how bummed they would be and I hate that.

 

[Chaplin]

No maybe not but I don't understand why we don't have either Plumlee or Len on the floor for all 48 mins of a game.

That's easy. Split down the middle, that's saying Len and Plumlee should play 24 minutes each. Well, Len can't play that much, he just doesn't have the mentality or the strength to. So let's say he should get 15 minutes every single game without fail. That leaves Plumlee to get the remaining 33 minutes. I like Plumlee, but I'm pretty sure he can't handle that many minutes himself. So what's the alternative? Frye and/or Markieff. Not ideal, sure, but I'd rather Plumlee and Len play a total of 30-35 minutes per game than have one of them go down injured because we played them too much too soon.