%$#@& Rookies

[devilalum]

Am I still the only one who's concerned?

I would however like to change the original thread title to:

%$#@& Position Rookies

Ironic how just a few months ago many were convinced that the Dbacks didn't have any good pitching prospects.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

Am I still the only one who's concerned?

Is it still April of 2007?

 

[Espo]

That's the point. A good Manager recognizes the skills of his ballplayers, uses them wisely and helps them build confidence at the Major League level.

You wouldn't bring up a Catcher and play him at Shortstop. You shouldn't bring up a middle to lower part of the lineup guy and bat him leadoff.

"Drew is batting in a spot in the lineup he never has before" is not a defense of Melvin. It's an example of his incompetence.

In no way was I trying to defend Melvin's managing. Honestly Melvin is a terrible manager. I was just saying that you can't get down on these young guys based on this young season. You can blame Melvin all you want but these guys are going to have ebs and flows as the season moves along. My point with that was that Drew is a smart of batter to eventually work his way into being a serviceable lead off guy if kept in there and that you shouldn't get down on him after 3 weeks. These guys are talented. Be patient because this division isn't that strong.

 

[BC867]

My point with that was that Drew is a smart of batter to eventually work his way into being a serviceable lead off guy if kept in there and that you shouldn't get down on him after 3 weeks.

You've made good points in your post. But I still believe that Drew is not a good potential leadoff hitter.

 

[Espo]

You've made good points in your post. But I still believe that Drew is not a good potential leadoff hitter.

You are probably right about Drew not being good at lead off. Ideally I think he is a great number 2 or 3 hitter and if the power develops the way the organization thinks it will then he eventually could be a number 4 guy too. The ideal leadoff guy is Callaspo when he is in the lineup and Young once he gets out of his slump. Callaspo has been one of the toughest strikeouts in the minors in the past two seasons and he is a pure hitter. Young has the speed and the bat in the future to fit the spot too. Melvin has miss managed the lineup thus far by doing things he said he wasn't going to do.

 

[devilalum]

Is it still April of 2007?

This is why I'm only "concerend" and not melting down!

 

[Lefty]

How much blame do you give to Kevin Seitzer for the hitting woes?

 

[AZZenny]

How much blame do you give to Kevin Seitzer for the hitting woes?

I'm totally ready! You guys know me and hitting coaches -- most useless meddlesome pieces of crap anyone ever camen up with.

 

[AZZenny]

I said it before, and I'll say it again -- why the hell would you NOT put Conor first in the lineup, especially right now when he can't hit for s#!t -- he DOES know how to get on base. Forget the speed piece, this isn't a stealing team. Let him do what he's always been best at -- getting on base.

 

[BC867]

Melvin has miss managed the lineup thus far by doing things he said he wasn't going to do.

Melvin's behavior is typical of the personality traits he exhibits.

Always hedging. Afraid to say something too strong about anything.

He doesn't usually say what he means . . . then that leads to not meaning what you say.

I think that psychological testing would show that he lacks leadership ability. He should not be representing the team to the public. Or making the day-to-day decisions.

At best, he is a career Bench Manager, but only to a free-spirited Manager.

Remember, he failed in his last (only) Managerial position, and was bypassed by the D'backs when Wally Backman was chosen.

Then, in a desperate decision (when something had to be done quickly), he was named.

It looks like the Diamondbacks are careless in screening and evaluating their candidates.

Luckily, they have Chip Hale, who has already proved himself as a Manager within the organization.

Even if they consider Kirk Gibson, I hope someone knowledgable evaluates whether he has the potential administrative skills to be the guy at the top. Or whether his skill lies as a rah-rah influence. I think the latter may be the case.

Chip Hale now! Before Melvin has the further opportunity to ruin the best young talent pool in Major League baseball. Let him nervously pick his pimples and cover his mouth when he speaks somewhere else.

 

[Espo]

I think that the advantage to Chip Hale being manager of this team is that he knows the personnel from coaching them in the minors. I think that management needs to be careful. With younger players overly intense managers aren't always the best thing. It depends on how a majority of the young talent responds to an intense forceful manager. Some young guys might just tune a guy like that out. They need someone who is a solid personality with the media and knows how to arrange a lineup and stick with it. If its a fiery manager who yells and gets at these guys to get it done than Gibson might be the guy. I know Chip is a very intense manager also and it would be interesting to see if it translated to the big leagues.

 

[KingLouieLouie]

Even if they consider Kirk Gibson, I hope someone knowledgable evaluates whether he has the potential administrative skills to be the guy at the top. Or whether his skill lies as a rah-rah influence. I think the latter may be the case.

I am the residential supporter of Gibson on this board and I'll be the first to immediately say he's not just "rah-rah".

There have been many documented instances while he was serving as a coach of the Tigers that he would (even after exhibition games) remain on the field with players teaching them the fine art of proper base-running. He's really in tuned w/the basic fundamentals and knows how to stress everything to a point, but not if as though he's belaboring the issue either. He is very effective with younger talent. Tony Clark has been quoted so many times how Gibson and a couple other Tiger veterans were always there to offer him advice/support. He's very serious on the basics of the game, has the credentials, will not play favorites with any of the players either. Plus, he's no-nonsense, means business, very straight-forward (blunt in most cases). He would be refreshing. He's learned/played for the best and along with his own leadership abilities that places him ahead than several.

Again, he had to be promised more long-term than just serve as the Dbacks bench coach for 2-years in order to be lured out of his confines of Michigan. Therefore, I think the upper brass told him that Melvin won't serve the length of his contract (again, Melvin was extended I think just 1-year with an option mainly because the team at the time was still in contention and they didn't want him viewed as lame-duck) and Gibson is anointed as his successor. True, he does not have any managerial experience, but has lot more coaching/playing experience compared to what Melvin had when he initially was hired as the Mariners manager. Gibson is ideal for a young team, he won't go with kid gloves, but he knows when he has to rule with an iron fist. He knows the "middle-ground" and he has the makings to be a solid manager for a long time once he receives that chance and I hope it is here w/the Dbacks.

 

[Espo]

True, he does not have any managerial experience, but has lot more coaching/playing experience compared to what Melvin had when he initially was hired as the Mariners manager. Gibson is ideal for a young team, he won't go with kid gloves, but he knows when he has to rule with an iron fist. He knows the "middle-ground" and he has the makings to be a solid manager for a long time once he receives that chance and I hope it is here w/the Dbacks.

Your comment that he has more coaching/playing experience compared to Melivin when he took the Mariners job isn't correct. Melvin played for 10 years and coached for 6 years not to mention three years spent as a scout and one as an assistant GM. Gibson played for 16 seasons and has coached for 3 seasons. So he only has more seasons playing but less coaching and its not a significant amount.
As to your point that he is ideal for a young team and knows how to manage them, what real proof is there? I would rather go with a guy who has proved it on the field as an actual manager in game situations at some level.

 

[KingLouieLouie]

Your comment that he has more coaching/playing experience compared to Melivin when he took the Mariners job isn't correct. Melvin played for 10 years and coached for 6 years not to mention three years spent as a scout and one as an assistant GM. Gibson played for 16 seasons and has coached for 3 seasons. So he only has more seasons playing but less coaching and its not a significant amount.
As to your point that he is ideal for a young team and knows how to manage them, what real proof is there? I would rather go with a guy who has proved it on the field as an actual manager in game situations at some level.

I do not want to come across that I'm arguing with semantics here, but Gibson played more consistently and at a higher level during his career than Melvin did. Gibson handled a lot more pressure situations and thrived in the clutch. Melvin was essentially a 2nd/3rd string catcher (I even recall his brief stint w/the Tigers in '85).

Gibson spent 5 season ('98-'02) as the Tiger's color analysis on FOX, but during that time he served as an "pseudo" instructor and would help out in Spring Training. Also, he was cited throughout his later career as to how he would help out youngsters.

This recent article speaks volumes of how Gibson is (especially w/youngsters):
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2817038&type=story

Melvin having managerial experience doesn't suggest much since it doesn't necessarily signify he's a quality one. Let's be honest... He failed in Seattle and got the Dbacks job out of default. He hasn't justified anything as to why he's worth being kept around longer.

I know I'm the ultimate Gibson supporter which makes me more partial to him. Yet, I have been very anti-Melvin for the longest time, but to me he's really affecting most of these younger players. He's best suited for a veteran oriented team (similar to Brenly).

Again, he must learn to play according to his player's strengths. Also, if a player has an excellent game, don't bench him the next when this player might be able to carry the team w/the momentum that he may be establishing.

I know you're not a major proponent of Melvin yourself. If you think I've been discrediting Chip Hale by suggesting Gibson, then I sincerely apologize.

Perhaps this entire exchange is rather moot in the first place, but to me Gibson has proven (even w/out managerial experience) that he does posses the attributes to be a solid manager, whereas Melvin (even with his experience) lacks the necessary leadership skills/qualities.

 

[Espo]

I do not want to come across that I'm arguing with semantics here, but Gibson played more consistently and at a higher level during his career than Melvin did. Gibson handled a lot more pressure situations and thrived in the clutch. Melvin was essentially a 2nd/3rd string catcher (I even recall his brief stint w/the Tigers in '85).

Gibson spent 5 season ('98-'02) as the Tiger's color analysis on FOX, but during that time he served as an "pseudo" instructor and would help out in Spring Training. Also, he was cited throughout his later career as to how he would help out youngsters.

This recent article speaks volumes of how Gibson is (especially w/youngsters):
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2817038&type=story

Melvin having managerial experience doesn't suggest much since it doesn't necessarily signify he's a quality one. Let's be honest... He failed in Seattle and got the Dbacks job out of default. He hasn't justified anything as to why he's worth being kept around longer.

I know I'm the ultimate Gibson supporter which makes me more partial to him. Yet, I have been very anti-Melvin for the longest time, but to me he's really affecting most of these younger players. He's best suited for a veteran oriented team (similar to Brenly).

Again, he must learn to play according to his player's strengths. Also, if a player has an excellent game, don't bench him the next when this player might be able to carry the team w/the momentum that he may be establishing.

I know you're not a major proponent of Melvin yourself. If you think I've been discrediting Chip Hale by suggesting Gibson, then I sincerely apologize.

Perhaps this entire exchange is rather moot in the first place, but to me Gibson has proven (even w/out managerial experience) that he does posses the attributes to be a solid manager, whereas Melvin (even with his experience) lacks the necessary leadership skills/qualities.

I completely understand your point. At least we are both on the Melvin should go bandwagon. I just don't worry about both Hale and Gibson honestly. This is a very young team and I don't know if a rookie manager is the ideal situation on top of that.

 

[Nasser22]

This is why I'm only "concerend" and not melting down!

If in 3 months they are still playing like this then I'll be upset, but there's no reason to worry about ROOKIES not being very good yet.

 

[KingLouieLouie]

I completely understand your point. At least we are both on the Melvin should go bandwagon. I just don't worry about both Hale and Gibson honestly. This is a very young team and I don't know if a rookie manager is the ideal situation on top of that.

Yeah, it's just who would be available if the Dbacks did decide to fire Melvin?

I would love Ken Macha, but people tended to question his approach with some of the Athletics rookies (which ultimately cost him his job). Bobby Valentine is trying to return back to the States, but for some reason the teams they manage (regardless of how much talent in on their roster) tends to underachieve.

I think though an advantage of a rookie manager is that he's not predisposed to any managerial style, that he could adjust himself according to the players instead of the players having to adjust to him. I don't know if they made any absolute sense, but it may be an easier transition if both the manager and player were on an equal page from the start and built it from there. Some well-seasoned manager only view it their way and don't have much patience. Take for example in basketball with Larry Brown. He's obviously a proven and highly regarded, but for some reason is horrible with younger players. He just lacks patience and honestly doesn't care what others may think since he does have a solid track record, but lots of arrogance in the process.

A rookie/coach manager obviously doesn't have that leeway, he must prove his worth and knows he must adjust according to the direction of where is team is headed. He knows he cannot dictate the route the team takes or else he will be out of the job sooner than later. I'm just generalizing here.

The Dbacks right now are probably in the 1st year of what is a 5 year plan. I think at this point by hiring an upstart manager can ease these players in a solid direction. That's why Wally Backman was initially hired because the front office had determined what direction they were headed and he would have been ideal (we obviously know his fate). They need someone who is no-nonsense/fiery, with lots of passion, very keen on the fundamentals, someone with solid credentials, also with a high pedigree in terms of who he has learned from. That's who the Dbacks need at this stage.

 

[Espo]

Yeah, it's just who would be available if the Dbacks did decide to fire Melvin?

I would love Ken Macha, but people tended to question his approach with some of the Athletics rookies (which ultimately cost him his job). Bobby Valentine is trying to return back to the States, but for some reason the teams they manage (regardless of how much talent in on their roster) tends to underachieve.

I think though an advantage of a rookie manager is that he's not predisposed to any managerial style, that he could adjust himself according to the players instead of the players having to adjust to him. I don't know if they made any absolute sense, but it may be an easier transition if both the manager and player were on an equal page from the start and built it from there. Some well-seasoned manager only view it their way and don't have much patience. Take for example in basketball with Larry Brown. He's obviously a proven and highly regarded, but for some reason is horrible with younger players. He just lacks patience and honestly doesn't care what others may think since he does have a solid track record, but lots of arrogance in the process.

A rookie/coach manager obviously doesn't have that leeway, he must prove his worth and knows he must adjust according to the direction of where is team is headed. He knows he cannot dictate the route the team takes or else he will be out of the job sooner than later. I'm just generalizing here.

The Dbacks right now are probably in the 1st year of what is a 5 year plan. I think at this point by hiring an upstart manager can ease these players in a solid direction. That's why Wally Backman was initially hired because the front office had determined what direction they were headed and he would have been ideal (we obviously know his fate). They need someone who is no-nonsense/fiery, with lots of passion, very keen on the fundamentals, someone with solid credentials, also with a high pedigree in terms of who he has learned from. That's who the Dbacks need at this stage.

I can see that. I agree that they need someone that is keen on fundamentals. They also need someone willing to use statistics to his advantage and use the best lineup based on numbers not hunches and be firm in those decisions. I think that these rookies are going to be just fine in spite of Melvin's miss management of the lineup.
Every team goes through slumps and this just happens to be one for the Dbacks bats. At some point these guys will hit for the average they have throughout their minor league careers. CoJack will find his stroke again and his average will rise and Stephen Drew will find power. Chris Young did this same thing last year in Triple-A in April and had a huge May so I'm not too worried about his slow start. The only one that concerns me really is Tracy. I think Melvin's managing and putting him in the 4 spot has really messed with his head and his confidence.

 

[KingLouieLouie]

Every team goes through slumps and this just happens to be one for the Dbacks bats. At some point these guys will hit for the average they have throughout their minor league careers. CoJack will find his stroke again and his average will rise and Stephen Drew will find power. Chris Young did this same thing last year in Triple-A in April and had a huge May so I'm not too worried about his slow start. The only one that concerns me really is Tracy. I think Melvin's managing and putting him in the 4 spot has really messed with his head and his confidence.

Yeah, I agree it is too premature to panic, but some times if a manager forces horrible habits on a player, it will take a lot longer for them to overcome and make the proper adjustments. In the process, that prolongs the struggles and the player loses that focus/confidence.

Please refer back to my earlier post in this thread:
http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1329273&postcount=23

I will reiterate from that. Young is the ideal lead-off hitter on the Dbacks roster again since pitchers must respect his power potential. You and Green Machine probably attended several Sidewinders games last year, so you can offer better insight since I'm just basing it from what I read, but Young did improve with his patience at the plate as the season progressed. I just feel he would exploit the opposition's fears because they will be more inclined to pitch around him. Of course, he can further capitalize on that with his blazing speed. That would enable for more hit-and-run situations, the small-ball that the Dbacks must begin using to compensate for the lack of power. Byrnes lacks patience at the plate to be lead-off and is taking out of his game. He should be hitting #5 since he would have more chances to use to his full advantage his power to drive in more runs. Drew should be batting around #2 or perhaps #7. I know it's a stretch, but for now #7 until he reestablishes some confidence and rhythm. Tracy should be hitting #3 or perhaps #6 which are strong OBP places in the order. He can refocus on spraying the ball and in due time might generate some HRs (especially to the opposite field) that way.

First, what happened with CoJack? I noticed he left today's game early. No way should him and Tracy be hitting back-2-back in the line-up, but that's Melvin playing w/the percentages again....that usually backfires.

As I mentioned in another thread, Melvin stated during Fri's telecast that his criteria for a middle of the line-up hitter is he must be "high energy", which essentially translates into that he has to be a "gamer". Gamer is the worst sports term, suggesting that he lacks skills/talent. That really isn't assuring whatsoever.

It's again making everything fully suited according to each player's strengths, instead of forcing them into something that they aren't. Unfortunately, Tracy is lost at this time and many other players will soon follow his path. Just hope again some corrective action takes place soon before it's too late.

 

[Espo]

Your lineup in that previous post is my idea of a perfect lineup too. Great take there. I have no clue how I missed it earlier in the thread.

 

[KingLouieLouie]

Your lineup in that previous post is my idea of a perfect lineup too. Great take there. I have no clue how I missed it earlier in the thread.

I was going to add that why is Melvin starting Snyder over Montero? True, Snyder may be better defensively at this stage, but of course the Dbacks aren't at a luxury to sacrifice any offense for defense.

I just have this feeling that Montero will begin to flourish offensively if given a chance to play on a daily basis (which again is why I was mystified he wasn't rewarded with a start last Sunday after hitting his 1st ML HR the day before). He's also proven to be solid with the pitchers as well. I must admit every time Snyder comes to the plate that I think of Mark Grace dropping those F-bombs about his underwater swing. Unfortunately, Snyder has not improved much offensively and never will. You would think that Melvin being a former catcher himself would notice all of that, but no.

Anyways, we must both write a petition to the Dbacks that they terminate Melvin soon or else. I know several others on here (along with most or if all Dback fans) would endorse it.

 

[Lefty]

I am not a fan of Snyder. The guy is mostly a liability offensively. Who creates the "FireBobMelvin.com" website?

 

[AZZenny]

I'm for Gibson, too, but I'll take Chip Hale as an alternate. I do NOT want an old retread with a ton of baggage, entrenched bad habits, things to prove, old cronies, etc.

I want someone who can select good teachers for the players and supervise everybody firmly, but supportively. Don't need a 'nice guy', necessarily, but don't need an a-hole.
He also needs to actually be able to think strategically and tactically, but let the game come to the team, mostly, not try to meddle and overcontrol everything.
More than anything, he needs to understand his players' true strengths and limitations, and work creatively to get the best out of their talents and minimize their deficiencies. And yet has to be fairly ruthless -- not get sentimental over old veteran has-beens, or deferential to over over-paid names or bonus-babies.

Manager doesn't have to teach, necessarily, he has to set the tone, make sure things follow his agenda. He has to morivate, reinforce, and carefully, even-handedly punish -- enough so people know there are penalties -- even if just disapproval -- for stupidity, carelessness, and apathy.

So... Hillary? or Obama?

 

[KingLouieLouie]

I am not a fan of Snyder. The guy is mostly a liability offensively. Who creates the "FireBobMelvin.com" website?

You know what? I just checked-out ESPN stats and I discovered something that I hadn't noticed until now.

So far this season, base-runners are 6/6 in SB off of Snyder, however, Montero has thrown-out 3/6. So, even defensively Montero has exhibited better skills than Snyder.

I guess the reason why Snyder though has gotten more starts is Melvin wants to keep intact his pathetic L/R alignment he uses with his batting order. Other than that, I don't see why Melvin is so fixated with Snyder.

 

[AZZenny]

was mystified he wasn't rewarded with a start last Sunday after hitting his 1st ML HR the day before). He's also proven to be solid with the pitchers as well. I must admit every time Snyder comes to the plate that I think of Mark Grace dropping those F-bombs about his underwater swing. Unfortunately, Snyder has not improved much offensively and never will. You would think that Melvin being a former catcher himself would notice all of that, but no.

Mystified? Ironic understatement, right? That suggests you can't understand the thinking process, when I think you and everyone here can. Sentiment.
I'm not as down on Snyder as you guys, but I'd put him third behind Montero and Hammock. OK, so I am as down on him, never mind.
Melvin also pretty much sucked offensively as a catcher, didn't he? That's what he understands -- pity the poor offensively inadequate catcher, who never REALLY got the chance he deserved...

I wrote my annual letter to Moorad last year, and it wasn't friendly. I told him extending BoMel was guaranteed to chap nearly every DBacks fan in the valley, but at least it would be a cheaper mistake to fix than Ortiz. Go right ahead, guys, start petitions. They won't listen, but gives us something to do while he drags the team down into another intolerably apathetic season.