ROY Stoudamire update.....

[elindholm]

You think they shouldn't take into consideration the player as he came into the league, I do.

Not quite. I think the voters might take it into consideration, and they might not. I personally wouldn't, but if the voters want to, I don't have a problem with that. I just have a problem with anyone stating emphatically that Stoudemire's inexperience must be considered.

but in reality, he's 18 freaking years old! And you say it doesn't matter??

Well, he's 20, which is only two years younger than Yao.

David Robinson won the award when he was 24 (1989-90 season), and I'm sure there were younger players in the league that season who also had good years. I don't know who they were, and their years weren't nearly as good as Robinson's, but that doesn't change the basic point: Voters aren't required to "penalize" a more experienced rookie in comparision with other rookies who had fewer opportunities.

So anyway, no, as a voter, Stoudemire's youth doesn't matter to me. As a fan of the Suns and the league, of course it matters. If the award were "Most Impressive Rookie," I think Stoudemire would win easily. And if a voter wants to vote that way, I think he's perfectly welcome to.

 

[Chaplin]

Well, then, perhaps you can answer then the question at hand. I believe you are in the camp of "his team made the playoffs". Yes? Is that the only reason you can think of that Amare won the award over Yao, or do you think there are more subtle reasons behind the way he was voted. Yes, it's subjective, but look at it realistically--there aren't that many reasons for two people that voted for him to disagree.

 

[JJ Slim]

And it's not like they pick the names out of a hat--there ARE qualifications that the votes are based on.

Agreed but each of the voters has their own list of qualifications they base their vote upon.

Is it possible that a voter could choose Amare for different reasons? Of course. But, really, how much could their opinions differ? Stats, team playoff position, there isn't much else that they could base their vote on. [/B]

Over the last few days I've seen no less than 20 different things that people say ROY should be rated on. Some weren't very good and others were downright ridiculous. But even if there were only 10 things divided evenly among the voters that pretty much removes the weight of any one of these 'qualifications'.

So all I'm saying is that we can speculate all we want but there is no definitive way to say what a true ROY is.

 

[elindholm]

Yes, it's subjective, but look at it realistically--there aren't that many reasons for two people that voted for him to disagree.

Good question. I don't know why the voters made the decision that they did. I'd guess that there was a sizeable "swing vote" who were waiting to see how the playoff race finished off -- but mainly, it was people who had already decided one way or another.

Possible arguments in favor of Stoudemire:

1. As you observe, he came to the league with virtually no experience. It's probably true that he needed to bring more focus and commitment to this season than Yao did.

2. He is a legitimate power player on a team that has always had the reputation of being soft, and so he has more potential to transform his franchise. The Rockets had Olajuwon, and Malone before that. They are "expected" to have a good center. The Suns have never had a player like Stoudemire, or at least not as long as anyone can remember.

3. The talent as his position across the NBA is deep. He had to face quality competition most nights. Yao didn't.

4. His numbers improved (a little) over the course of the season; Yao's tapered off.

5. His highlight reel is more impressive. It's silly, but highlight reels make a big emotional impact on some voters.

I'm not saying anything on this list is or is not a good factor to consider (except #5, which I think is dumb). Those are just some possible things that voters might have thought about. Someone could make an equally compelling case for Yao, I'm sure.

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by JJ Slim
So all I'm saying is that we can speculate all we want but there is no definitive way to say what a true ROY is.

Agreed, really it is up to the individual voters what the deciding factors are.

I have not been able to find an offical description of the award like "The Rookie of the Year is the player that ..........".

This probably makes people discuss it even more. I'm sure that is what the NBA wants.

Kind of like the MVP, is it most valuable to their team or to the league in general?
With no established criteria it is left up to everyone to argue about and the voters to decide.

 

[JJ Slim]

Eric, your post a few back about a voter subjectively picking his criteria and then judging objectively on that is exactly what I was trying to say. You just explained it in more detail.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I didnt thouroghly read everyone's post but here is my take, sorry if I repeat anyone

Reasons for Amare:

1.) Both Amare and Yao had almost identical stats, however Yao obtained his while being as one reported said "a key part to the offense" while Amare was "merely a role player." The fact that Yao probably got more touches per game (not shots, just touches) yet Amare put up better numbers is amazing.

2.) Both Amare and Yao had similar impacts and stats, therefor prior experience should be used as a sort of tie breaker. Amare did it all with no experience, while Yao had tons.

3.) Both players played for very talented teams, who both should have been in the playoffs. Amare's team won out at the end, while Yao's faltered. Amare also said (with the suns back a couple games in the race)..."Yah I think whoever makes the playoffs should win, that seems fair."

4.) Amare had dominating games, while Yao really did not. I mean a 38 point performance. And many other nights where it seemed like he oculd have gone for that number again had he gotton the shots.

5.) Yao realistically had only about 5 or 6 centeres in the league that can play. Amare played against the most competitive, dominating position in the league. Also he played in the western conference where that position is solid with almost every team. I mean Yao played against (Shaq, Ilguaskas, Miller, Big Jake, Sabonis) while Amare matched up with (Duncan, Garnett, Malone, Webber, Wallace, Dirk, Murphy, ect.)

 

[WizardOfAz]

They gave Wallace his trophy last night in Detroit - will they give the ROY trophy Friday or Sunday?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by JJ Slim
Eric, your post a few back about a voter subjectively picking his criteria and then judging objectively on that is exactly what I was trying to say. You just explained it in more detail.

But again, this isn't based on what kind of food they like or what car they drive. Subjective, yes, but there isn't THAT many qualifications they are working with. You said you've seen 20, some ridiculous, but I'll bet that there are no more than 5 or 6 that actually mean something to voters.

 

[JJ Slim]

Originally posted by Chaplin
You said you've seen 20, some ridiculous, but I'll bet that there are no more than 5 or 6 that actually mean something to voters.

Once again that is subjective.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by JJ Slim
Once again that is subjective.

I thought it was common sense.

 

[Dback Jon]

Almost official

Stoudemire wins Rookie of the Year

Posted: Thursday April 24, 2003 4:37 PM


PHOENIX (AP) -- Amare Stoudemire won the NBA Rookie of the Year award Thursday, the first player to do so after coming to the league directly from high school.

Several players and coach Frank Johnson acknowledged that Stoudemire had won the award after the team practiced Thursday, and a news conference for the official announcement was scheduled for later in the day.

The Phoenix Suns power forward -- quick, powerful and barely out of his teens -- beat out Houston Rockets center Yao Ming, last year's No. 1 draft pick.

Stoudemire is the third Suns player to win the award, but first since Walter Davis in 1978. Phoenix's Alvan Adams was rookie of the year in 1976.

Stoudemire, who turned 20 two weeks into the season, averaged 13.5 points and 8.8 rebounds, better rookie statistics than any player to turn pro out of high school since Moses Malone.

Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett and Tracy McGrady all had less impact in their rookie seasons than did Stoudemire. At 6-foot-10 and 245 pounds, he gave the Suns an inside presence crucial to their surprising drive to the playoffs.

Stoudemire's father died when Amare was 12. His mother was in and out of jail throughout his childhood. He went to six high schools, the last Cypress Creek High School in Orlando, and had to sit out his junior season because of transfer rules.

Concern over his background may have been the reason he was still available when Phoenix made its pick. At the time, Suns owner Jerry Colangelo confidently predicted Stoudemire could be the best player the team ever drafted.

Stoudemire didn't begin playing basketball until he was 14, and he had no serious coaching until he came to the Suns.

He began the season as a reserve, but moved into the starting lineup when Tom Gugliotta went down with a foot injury after 11 games. Confident and usually poised far beyond his years, Stoudemire showed no sign of being intimidated by his big, rough, older opponents. His favorite player in high school was Shaquille O'Neal.

Stoudemire scored 38 points and grabbed 14 rebounds at Minnesota on Dec. 30. Against Memphis on Jan. 10, he grabbed 21 rebounds, a Suns' rookie record and the most by a Phoenix player since Charles Barkley's 26 against Houston in 1996.

Stoudemire scored 24 points in his playoff debut against San Antonio last week, including an improbable bank-shot 3-pointer that sent the game into overtime.

 

[Joe Mama]

If I was voting for the Most Improved Player of course I would consider how far along the player has come. But as far as I'm concerned Rookie of the Year should be given to the first-year player who plays best on the court and has the biggest positive effect on his team.

I definitely believe that Amare Stoudemire is getting the award because the Phoenix Suns made the playoffs. I think I've already said this here, but I also believe that if the Suns had somehow drafted Yao Ming he would have been the runaway rookie of the year. This team has been starving for a presence in the low post. It's been the main missing ingredient for some time.

Joe Mama

 

[capologist]

Originally posted by JJ Slim
Once again that is subjective.

Subjectivity is objective.

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by capologist
Subjectivity is objective.

That's only your subjective opinion. I'd only say subjectivity should be objective, since a number of people think their opinions are objective.

 

[Chaplin]

I object to everyone who doesn't agree with me.