Rumor: According to WIP in Philadelphia - Burrell to Arizona for Estrada

green machine

I rule at posting
Joined
Sep 4, 2002
Posts
6,126
Reaction score
11
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I agree with Espo on this one. If the Phills were to pay a good portion of the salary then I'm all for it. Burrell may not hit 50 home runs (although we do have a hitters park here), but at least he'll provide a power bat and a threat in the middle of the lineup. Last year's squad had no offensive identity. They couldn't play small ball because they had no speed, no bunting, no real great average hitters. And they couldn't play for the long ball because they had no power. A move like this would help alleviate some of the problem.
 

AzKarl

Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
444
Reaction score
0
Location
Tempe,Arizona
My concern with Eric Byrnes is.....

I read a few months ago in a doctors office magazine that Byrnes was one of the best Free Agent pickup by any club last season based on cost/production. He was a hell of a pick up regardless of his defensive short comings

Has he ever put two consecutive good seasons together? Is he the 2006 version of the 2005 version of Tony Clarke? I like his energy but he sometimes makes stupid plays and what were his numbers with runners in scoring position when we really needed the runs? I'm not sure but, maybe one of you stats hounds can compare them to Burrell's. I would not cry if Byrnes is dealt provided we replace him with someone who can deliver consistent power. I think Byrnes 2006 power numbers were an anomaly.
 

Ryanwb

ASFN IDOL
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
35,576
Reaction score
6
Location
Mesa
This was the same radio station that started the "Iverson to Phoenix, done deal" a few years ago.

I hope this isn't true
 

devilfan02

Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Posts
3,399
Reaction score
0
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=2653713

Phillies hamstrung by Burrell's no-trade clause

By Jerry Crasnick
ESPN.com
Archive


PHILADELPHIA -- Phillies general manager Pat Gillick is quite nimble for a 69-year-old. Just think of all the hoops he jumped through before dealing Jim Thome and Bobby Abreu, high-profile players with big salaries and complete no-trade clauses.
This winter, Philadelphia fans will see whether Gillick can complete the hat trick withPat Burrell, whose .222 average with runners in scoring position eclipsed his 29 homers and 95 RBI. It said a lot when manager Charlie Manuel batted 40-year-old Jeff Conine in the No. 5 spot in September to protect cleanup hitter Ryan Howard when the games mattered most.

Still, no matter how tiresome it gets watching Burrell wave at sliders, he might not be going anywhere. The Phillies say they expect Burrell to be more productive after a winter to rest his injured foot. He also has two years and $27 million left on his contract, and any trade partner probably would be asked to assume about half of it.
Finally, Burrell has a complete no-trade clause, and he has told the Phillies he has no interest in waiving it.
Did someone say "immovable object"?

"Pat wants to stay in Philly. He wants to play here. He's made that clear to us," Gillick said. "Our thought right now is that he'll be here. But if we get something on the table for any of our players that could improve the club, we'd have to take a look at it."
Gillick, who previously built winners in Toronto, Baltimore and Seattle, is no fan of blanket no-trade clauses. He's willing to bend in negotiations and let a player pick 6-8 clubs where he won't accept a trade without permission. Anything more liberal than that and Gillick feels hamstrung.
Some of his peers -- such as Boston's Theo Epstein and the Yankees' Brian Cashman -- sure know that feeling.

Manny Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez, perennial All-Stars mentioned in recent trade speculation, are in a situation similar to Burrell's. Their contracts are big enough to exclude most clubs from the process, yet they have a right to dictate exactly where they want to go.
Gillick is so averse to giving out complete no-trade provisions that he says it could be a "deal breaker" when the Phillies negotiate with big free agents this winter. (Yes, that means you, Alfonso Soriano).

"Situations change," Gillick said. "Your club might be constituted differently from one year to the next, and anything that restricts your flexibility is a problem. If you have a player under contract and you're paying the sums we're paying now, I think clubs ought to have the freedom to trade that player."
Cherished right

Even before the advent of free agency, players understood the value of calling the shots. Baseball's 1973 labor agreement was the first to include the 10-and-5 rule, which gives players with 10 years of big-league service time and five with the same club the right to veto any trade.
In his book "Lords of the Realm," John Helyar writes that the pursuit of a no-trade clause was the driving force behind Andy Messersmith's decision to test the reserve clause by playing the entire 1975 season without a contract. Along with Dave McNally, Messersmith paved the way for free agency.

Agent Scott Boras estimates that 12-13 of his current clients have full no-trade clauses. That includes Carlos Beltran, who signed with the Mets, in part, because they agreed to such a provision when Houston would not.
"One of the real valued rights of free agency and being a star player is the club saying, 'We want you in our city, we want you on our team, and we're going to assure you that by giving you a no-trade clause,'" Boras said.

Given the history, it's only natural players want such an assurance in writing.
"Babe Ruth is a great example," Boras said. "He was pretty darned good, but he still got traded."
Through the years, players with limited no-trade clauses have learned to use them strategically to protect their interests. Pitchers traditionally crossed Colorado off their list, at least before the humidor. And a player who values winning is likely to steer clear of, say, Pittsburgh and Kansas City.
Phillies shortstop Jimmy Rollins submits a list each November of eight teams he won't accept a trade to without giving permission. A baseball source said it includes some teams with elite shortstops -- a way for Rollins to protect himself in case some contender wants to trade for him and shift him to second base.

Boras said star players often seek no-trade clauses because they don't want to deal with the trauma of uprooting their families every two or three years.
"This clause is the beacon for 'I love my family,'" Boras said. "The first question that wives ask me is, 'Can we get a no-trade clause?' They want certainty."
Team officials, naturally, see a different motivation.
"When you try to trade the guy someplace he says, 'Yeah, I'll waive my [no-trade clause], but I want X number of dollars,' " Gillick said. "It's a money grab."
Washington Nationals president Stan Kasten, who once ran three professional franchises in Atlanta, has steadfastly refused to give out no-trades. Six years ago, when the Braves lost out to Texas in their quest to sign Alex Rodriguez, Atlanta's unwillingness to include a no-trade provision was cited as a factor.

Kasten chuckles at that characterization. "We did wind up $126 million short of the total number," he said. "That might have been a factor as well."

But as Kasten points out, the Braves signed Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, Chipper Jones and Andruw Jones to long-term deals and lured Greg Maddux from Chicago without a no-trade clause. He has held the line with star players in basketball (Dominique Wilkins and Moses Malone) and hockey (Dany Heatley and Ilya Kovalchuk), too.
"I've seen too many cases where no-trade clauses resulted in real turmoil for a franchise," Kasten said. "I can negotiate away money, but I never felt comfortable negotiating away my ability to improve the team. That's something we need to hold on to as tenaciously as we can."
Gillick's challenge

In Philadelphia, former GM Ed Wade agreed to the contract restrictions that are now making Gillick's life so challenging. The Phillies had just traded third baseman Scott Rolen to St. Louis because they couldn't sign him to a long-term deal, and they needed to generate some good will with the fan base.

Abreu and Burrell weren't terrible investments, just not the players the Phillies decided they wanted to build around. When Gillick began shipping out veterans to turn over the team leadership to Chase Utley and Howard, he found the no-trade clauses hampered his mobility.
Thome told the Phillies he would be willing to waive his no-trade clause to go to two clubs -- the Indians or the White Sox -- before Gillick sent him to Chicago for Aaron Rowand last November. The Phillies focused on four clubs before trading Abreu to the Yankees, then had to kick in $1.5 million to get him to agree to the deal.

Although Gillick has been criticized for getting little in return for Abreu, he had almost no leverage.
"If the other club is aware a player will only go to certain places, it hurts you on what you can get back in return," Gillick said. "With contracts of that size, you can't talk to 29 other clubs. But you might be able to talk to, say, 10 clubs. That's a hell of a lot better than three or four. "
The Phillies were caught off guard last week by reports that Burrell might consider waiving his no-trade provision to go to San Francisco. Don't count on him winding up there. If the Giants re-sign Barry Bonds, Burrell would be out of luck in left field. And although there were rumblings that San Francisco might play Burrell at first base, the Phillies tried him there earlier in his career and he didn't exactly warm to the position.

Finally, the Phillies have received no indication that the Giants are interested. One club official said the clubs have had "zero" discussions about Burrell.
Burrell's agent, Greg Genske, didn't return calls seeking comment. But it's not difficult to envision places for which Burrell might be willing to waive his no-trade clause. Arizona, the California teams, Boston and the two New York clubs are about it. That's a finite universe of suitors.
Oddly enough, the worse things get in Philadelphia, the more receptive Burrell could become to a deal. If Phillies fans continue to boo him in the spring or his playing time diminishes, he might be more willing to consider other destinations.

Now for the bad news: That's the point at which Burrell's value would be lowest and the Phillies could get the least in return.

"The danger when you enter into a contract of that magnitude is that you're probably signing a guy at his peak time," an American League executive said. "Your emotions are high and he's coming off a great year, and you say, 'We're not going to move him anyway. Let's give him a no-trade.' Three years later, you have Pat Burrell." At the moment, the Phillies still have Pat Burrell. How long they keep him could hinge on how open-minded he is and how inventive Gillick is. It's not as if the Phillies haven't been down this road before.
 
Last edited:

devilfan02

Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Posts
3,399
Reaction score
0
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
This is Shawn Green all over again. I'm not sure who was saying that Philly fans don't want to move him. They have been all over him for years and if they move him they can go hard after Soriano
 

The Commish

youknowhatimsayin?
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Posts
2,201
Reaction score
11
Location
San Francisco
This is Shawn Green all over again. I'm not sure who was saying that Philly fans don't want to move him. They have been all over him for years and if they move him they can go hard after Soriano

I was saying that after reading their message boards on him. I was surprised too, but many of them said they would rather just keep him than get screwed in another deal. They said he's a good player if you don't have to rely heavily on his power.
 

The Commish

youknowhatimsayin?
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Posts
2,201
Reaction score
11
Location
San Francisco
We are supposedly getting him for his "power." Please let this be a rumor

Yeah don't get me wrong, this is a move I have said from day 1 that I didn't want to make. I'm just trying to find out if he would benefit us at all and the only conclusion I can come up with is: he might, but not that much.
 

asuhoopnut

Veteran
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Posts
180
Reaction score
0
If this deal happens .......

If the Burrell deal does happen, Byrnes might be able to put together a deal for Dontrelle Willis involving Chris Young as the centerpiece plus other prospects. Although the Marlins keep claiming that they could keep Willis on a short term basis, everyone knows that they will not be able to afford him on a long term deal. I think Byrnes could put together a very attractive package with Young and others for Willis.
 

Ryanwb

ASFN IDOL
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
35,576
Reaction score
6
Location
Mesa
How would an A-Rod to Arizona trade be perceived?
 

Ryanwb

ASFN IDOL
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
35,576
Reaction score
6
Location
Mesa
Arizona - A-Rod plus a large % of his remaining salary

Yankees - Chris Young, Estrada and Chad Tracy

I'm not advocating this, but I think it would word nicely for both parties
 

asuhoopnut

Veteran
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Posts
180
Reaction score
0
Arod

Arizona - A-Rod plus a large % of his remaining salary

Yankees - Chris Young, Estrada and Chad Tracy

I'm not advocating this, but I think it would word nicely for both parties

I would do that deal in a heartbeat, but it looks like Cashman and Steinbrenner have decided that he is not going anywhere. Also, I think the Yankees are paying somewhere around 16 Million per year and Texas is paying the rest. Although, I would feel that 16 mill. is very reasonable in todays market, I'm not sure that Byrnes would have the go ahead to spend that amount on one player, even with a talent such as Arod.
 

ASUCHRIS

ONE HEART BEAT!!!
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Posts
16,670
Reaction score
15,006
Burrell = Troy Glaus...gaudy numbers, but never produces when you need it. Pass...
 

coyoteshockeyfan

Fool In The Rain
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2004
Posts
8,942
Reaction score
405
We're talking about the same Troy Glaus that has a World Series MVP trophy, right?
 

ASUCHRIS

ONE HEART BEAT!!!
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Posts
16,670
Reaction score
15,006
Yeah the one who batted .231 with RISP when he was here


Exactly my point. I know what he did before, but when he was here, I watched every game, and time and time again he would not produce when it mattered. Burrell strikes me as having the same qualities.
 

Ryanwb

ASFN IDOL
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
35,576
Reaction score
6
Location
Mesa
Exactly my point. I know what he did before, but when he was here, I watched every game, and time and time again he would not produce when it mattered. Burrell strikes me as having the same qualities.

Glaus must have lead the league in home runs that didn't matter. Seemed like he was always hitting a homer when the D'backs were already down 7-2 in the 8th inning
 

boondockdrunk

Resident Drunkard
Joined
Oct 9, 2003
Posts
1,582
Reaction score
40
Apparently, Burrell is not good with runners on and two outs. We need someone to put the ball in play during those situations and not have someone who strikes out trying to hit one out of the park.
 

devilfan02

Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Posts
3,399
Reaction score
0
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
I was saying that after reading their message boards on him. I was surprised too, but many of them said they would rather just keep him than get screwed in another deal. They said he's a good player if you don't have to rely heavily on his power.

I just went over and checked out the Phillies board. Your right, there is not one single person on that board that wants to trade him. They somehow think that he is just as productive as Soriano????? They all seem gun shy because they got taken to the cleaners in the Thome and Abreu deals and don't want it to happen again with Burrell. Interesting
 

The Commish

youknowhatimsayin?
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Posts
2,201
Reaction score
11
Location
San Francisco
I just went over and checked out the Phillies board. Your right, there is not one single person on that board that wants to trade him. They somehow think that he is just as productive as Soriano????? They all seem gun shy because they got taken to the cleaners in the Thome and Abreu deals and don't want it to happen again with Burrell. Interesting

I know it's crazy. I think they're trying to use reverse psychology on us in to thinking he's a good player. Even though Burrell and Green sound similar, I know most of us had the car started to take him to the airport after being dealt. I don't get that impression with Pat. I still don't want this deal to go down, but I agree with many of you that if it does happen Byrnes probably has another deal lined up.
 

Arizona's Finest

Your My Favorite Mistake
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
Posts
9,709
Reaction score
1
Uhh - There is a reason Philly doesn't want to get rid of him. Burrell is not a bad player. 30 - 100 RBIs is all good and would immediatly upgrade a lineup lacking real true power.

Its the money thats an issue. Considering we are forced to throw away Estrada anyway i like the idea of getting a power bat as long as we don't give up a top prospect and we get money back.

Everyone is so gun shy around here because of Glaus, Sexson, and Ortiz.....Thats Joe Jr guys....

In Byrnes we trust
 

devilfan02

Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Posts
3,399
Reaction score
0
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
How do you know Philly doesn't want to move him? It's been well known over the past year that they want him traded but he has a full no trade clause and an insane contract that no team wants a part of. Plus, if they some how find a way to trade him then they can go hard after Soriano (which is Gillicks #1 priority this offseason). So it's not that they don't want to trade him, more that they prob can't find a suitor

A player who has averaged 26 HR's and 92 RBI's over the last 7 seasons is not worth 27 million dollars over 2 years. He also isn't a "power bat." Just because he has the potential to provide slightly above avg RBI's and avg HR's (IF he can stay healthy) doesn't mean he's our long lost power bat. If they throw in half his salary you might consider doing this deal but Burrell=Shawn Green. No thanks
 
Last edited:

HooverDam

Registered User
Joined
May 21, 2005
Posts
6,560
Reaction score
0
Even if they threw in a lot of his salary, his D isn't very good and he blocks prospects! I want as many Baby Backs on the field as I can get next year!
 

phillycard

ASFN Addict
Joined
Aug 22, 2003
Posts
7,277
Reaction score
4,264
Location
The 215
Reports are anywhere from $8-$18 million. Philly fans seem pretty pissed about this deal which makes me feel a little bit better. But here's what I gathered from what I read over on their forum:

- Above average hitter who will get good numbers but looks at a lot of 3rd strikes.

- Has a chronic foot injury which may inhibit his ability to roam the outfield down the road.

- Overall liked by fans and don't want to see him go

- He will get you 30/100 each year


He's owed $13M in '07 and $14M in '08. :barf:


Red Stripe. Are you sure we're talking about the same Pat Burell here? He was absolutely LOATHED by this town this year. Boo'd unmercifully and came up so small down the stretch, that many just wanted to see him cut flat out. His departure is a priority here, it's just a matter of what we'll get for him. I liked Pat a lot, but it's time for him to go.
 
Top