Sando's take on the draft.

[Mitch]

Now you've moved to a point where we're a far off in our evaluations.

I've never seen anything from Reed to compare him to Matthews and Long. IMO he's not even in the same stratosphere.

So Wade Phillips has to be an utter fool to draft him at #42. He must know very little about pass rushers then.

 

[juza76]

Wow---put in the tapes---it's not even close. Watch the Senior Bowl too. It's not even close.

Believe me I wish you were right. I spent hours watching every OLB candidate in this draft---and Acho was well down my list---he just doesn't have the skill that Reed has.

Right now, I could care less if a pass rusher starts---we need rushers who can close out drives and games in passing situations. We still don't have those types...STILL.

i respect your opinion but acho show more in terms of stats ..i watched also his video and he has good speed and good strenght.he was productive much more then reed..honestly i dont how can you say reed is much better prospect..at least you should wait a year..this story remind me all the things i heard about darryl washington last season

 

[Hypothesis]

Wow---put in the tapes---it's not even close. Watch the Senior Bowl too. It's not even close.

Believe me I wish you were right. I spent hours watching every OLB candidate in this draft---and Acho was well down my list---he just doesn't have the skill that Reed has.

Right now, I could care less if a pass rusher starts---we need rushers who can close out drives and games in passing situations. We still don't have those types...STILL.

Well...again, you're going to believe what you want to believe, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

As far as putting in tapes...I've put in a ton of tapes myself and have seen every snap Reed has played and every snap Acho has played. Including the snaps where Acho played standing up as a LB. And in MY opinion, Reed is not suited for or have the range for the zone blitz defense here, whereas Acho is. Acho also has experience dropping into coverage and playing zone. Makes for less of a transition time vs Brooks.

 

[Hypothesis]

So Wade Phillips has to be an utter fool to draft him at #42. He must know very little about pass rushers then.

Wade Phillips does not run the same kind of defense that we will run here. Different defense = different types of players.

 

[Mitch]

i respect your opinion but acho show more in terms of stats ..i watched also his video and he has good speed and good strenght.he was productive much more then reed..honestly i dont how can you say reed is much better prospect..at least you should wait a year..this story remind me all the things i heard about darryl washington last season

I guess it must have been a colossal mistake that Reed was picked at #42 and Acho was picked 61 picks later at #103.

When I watched the tapes, I could see why.

But you're right...we should wait.

And let me say this to you and Hypothesis---two of my favorite posters here all-time---I sincerely hope and wish you are right. If you are then we all win...and best of all, the Cardinals win---which is all that matters.

 

[Russ Smith]

I couldn't agree more Mitch.

I think I've heard many times on this board how much easier it is to find a quality RB or WR.

This draft was stacked in the 1st 3 Rds for very good front 7 players & we basically passed them all even though we got lucky Acho fell to us in Rd 4. Hard to run a 3-4 without very good edge rushers...hopefully we have at least 1 because we really don't know yet.

Another thought is maybe Acho didn't fall to the Cards by luck, but he was drafted where most NFL people had him rated?

The whole perception of falling is so skewed in the draft now because there are so many ratings from so many sources it's impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I'm a UCLA fan and I would have been angry if the Cards had taken Ayers in round 2, which is what people here were saying at the time. I think in round 3 it was a pick I could have been ok with, but I don't think Ayers is going to be a really good NFL player, he is a guy who never showed any knack for rushing the QB. He was terrific in coverage but that was a DE dropping into coverage against QB's not expecting it, not an OLB in coverage regularly and the Cards didn't need a cover LB, they needed one who could get to the QB. I personally think Acho was a better pass rusher in college than Ayers was and we got him in the 4th round.

 

[football karma]

Another thought is maybe Acho didn't fall to the Cards by luck, but he was drafted where most NFL people had him rated?

The whole perception of falling is so skewed in the draft now because there are so many ratings from so many sources it's impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff.

yep

perception is everything

Leland McElroy "fell" to the Cardinals. Doesnt seem like much of a bargain now, huh?

 

[anks106]

So Wade Phillips has to be an utter fool to draft him at #42. He must know very little about pass rushers then.

Chris Long was the 2nd overall pick in the draft, Clay Mathews the 26th. Matthews put up 13.5 sacks last year, Long 8.5. Whether you think Reed is a good pass rusher or not, that statement is just hyperbole. Even ignoring that we run a very different system from Wade Phillips, there is no logical basis that if the kid is not as good as the 2nd pick or the 26th pick, then he isn't worth the 42nd.

How about agree to disagree? Scouting is not a science, if everyone agreed on exactly how players would turn out, we wouldn't have the drama of the draft. Both of you feel strongly, well.. nothing wrong with that, but its not like we are talking about matters of fact here, we are talking about opinion.

 

[Duckjake]

yep

perception is everything

Leland McElroy "fell" to the Cardinals. Doesnt seem like much of a bargain now, huh?

True. Look where we got Dan Williams last season when predictions were he'd go 8-15 spots higher.

Look how far Dockett dropped. DD was projected as a late first early 2nd round selection.

Players drop for all sorts of reasons many not related to their ability to play NFL football.

 

[Cardiac]

What I am saying is...Brooks Reed is a better pass rusher than anyone on the Cardinals' roster RIGHT now. He has the gitty-up and the speed to turn the corner---plus he is sneaky strong.

Ray Horton got totally short shrifted in this draft---I know everyone wants to believe the Cardinals had a magic formula for Day 3 picks---because that's what we're stuck with now---but the reality is Sam Acho, as good as he is in some areas, dropped to the 4th round because he's not a naturallly gifted pass rusher. All you have to do is watch Texas games to know---it's in every scouting report---no one lauded his pass rushing ability. No one. For a good reason. It doesn't show up on tape.

Put it this way---over with the Texans---who also have an offensive minded head coach---who ALSO hired a new DC this year as well in Wade Phillips---and when you look at the players the Texans already have on defense---here's what the Texans (picking much later than the Cardinals in each round) did for Wade Phillips and their defense:

J.J. Watt, 34DE, Wisconsin
Brooks Reed, 34OLB, Arizona
Brandon Harris, CB, Miami
Rashad Carmicheal, DB. Virginia Tech
Shiloh Keo, S, Idaho
Cheta Ozougwu, 34OLB, Rice

I would TRADE just their defensive picks for our entire draft without hesitation.

This is how you build a championship caliber defense.

And this is why the Cardinal organization has little understanding or command of the draft AND, even worse, it's own weaknesses.

Mitch, the Texans have a top notch offense and a worse defense then the Cards. Of Course they are going to finally pick heavy on the D side of the ball.
Talk about twisting events to suit an arugument?!?!?!?!

 

[Chopper0080]

Passing on Brooks Reed bugged me, but I get why it was done. Ryan Williams offers our offense the ability to gain yards in chunks like no other back on our team. RB's usually are plug and play players that can come in and contribute, especially those with speed. Conversion 3-4 LB's just aren't like that. It took Woodley 2 years, and he did it on occasion in college. The risk of conversion backers makes it tough to draft them high which means you have to pass on other top players who come with less risk. This is why teams like Pittsburgh, New England, and the New York Jets put more stock in their preference of drafting 3-4 d-linemen than 3-4 OLB when it comes to the top rounds.

 

[Buckybird]

Mitch, the Texans have a top notch offense and a worse defense then the Cards.

Didn't we rank rank nearly last in every statistical defensive category including PPG last year? IMO many on this board way overrate how good our defense really is & some of its talent.

At some point, the Cards will have to draft that OLB talent & let mature a few years just as you say those good teams do...this was a great year to do that IMO & we settled for what looks like less talent.

 

[bg7brd]

I usually agree with you, Hypothesis...but on this one, all I have to say is Brooks Reed is a better pass rusher than anyone we have on the roster right now---and he is significantly better than Acho (whom I love too---for other reasons and the ones you gave, save the fact that when you stack his tapes up next to Reed's and even Houston's you don't see the same natural pass rushing ability.

We need guys who can rush the passer---it doesn't even matter if they start, as long as they are in there when we need a pass rush most.

We still have no one---other than Schofield---but he hasn't shown yet what he is capable of---so we really don't know.

Brooks Reed is going to thrive with the Texans---you just watch. He may not even start but he will be rushing the passer left and right.

The other point is---if you draft a pass rusher at #5, THEN the Williams pick is fine!

The Cardinals needed to come out of this draft with one edge pass rushing threat and they did not when they had a golden opportunity to.

This is what irks me to no end about this organization and about Ken Whisenhunt who repaetedly ignores the defensive needs, including up till now getting a decent coordinator in place.

Mitch, I think we were "Sheard" by the Browns when they took him right in front of us at 37. I think he might have been our pick if he was there. I invented quite a few swear words in a short span when I heard his name to the Browns. I do think we're going to happy with the Acho pick though.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Mitch, I think we were "Sheard" by the Browns when they took him right in front of us at 37. I think he might have been our pick if he was there. I invented quite a few swear words in a short span when I heard his name to the Browns. I do think we're going to happy with the Acho pick though.

I doubt he was in our top 15. Also the Browns drafted him to be a 4-3 end, not a 3-4 OLB.

I think the team is more comfortable drafting OLBs later and we'll continue to see that.

 

[bg7brd]

I doubt he was in our top 15. Also the Browns drafted him to be a 4-3 end, not a 3-4 OLB.

I think the team is more comfortable drafting OLBs later and we'll continue to see that.

I realize that they are a 4-3 team but he was also projected to be an OLB in a 3-4.

 

[binkar]

I agree, Joe, except that in this draft the 6th rated OLB was not a Cody Brown.

There were 5 taken prior to #38

1-Von Milller (2)
2-Aldon Smith (7)
3-Robert Quinn (14)
4-Ryan Kerrigan (16)
5-Jabaal Sheard (37)

The OLBers on the board at #38:

6-Akeem Ayers (39)
7-Bruce Carter (40)
8-Brooks Reed (42)

These guys are MUCH more talented prospects than Cody Brown.
So are Dontay Moch and Justin Houston.

Sando's context/analogy here is not accurate. It's a spin.

None of these guys were even dominant pass rushers in college. I agree that each of them have good attributes and talent, but none of them show an impressive history of getting after the QB at the college level.

Ayers never had more than 4 sacks in a season, Carter had 5 sacks 3 seasons ago and 1 and 3 the following 2 seasons, and Reed had 7 last season and just 2 the season before. In fact, Reed's teammate Ricky Elmore had 21 sacks in the final two year to Reed's 9. Cody Brown had 10 his final college season. Now I know there is far more that goes into projecting a player than his stats in college, but how am I to assume a guy will be a great pass rusher in the NFL if he wasn't even one in college?

 

[binkar]

Krang, my good friend, natural pass rushers take little time to develop...you line them up and let them go---see Clay Matthews---see Chris Long---etc.

As for Acho---why settle for a not so good pass rusher when you had the chance to do what the Steelers do: acquire 3 down OLBers who never have to come off the field because they can play the OLB in the 34 and the end rusher spots in the 4 man line.

Clark Haggans wasn't re-signed with Pittsburgh for that reason---he's not an above average pass rusher.

Long only had 4 sacks his first year, and 5 his second.

 

[Cardiac]

Didn't we rank rank nearly last in every statistical defensive category including PPG last year? IMO many on this board way overrate how good our defense really is & some of its talent.

At some point, the Cards will have to draft that OLB talent & let mature a few years just as you say those good teams do...this was a great year to do that IMO & we settled for what looks like less talent.

We ranked 29th to last in PPG and other major Offensive and Deffensive catagories.

We have 4 players on D that have been to a pro bowl recently. We have 1 on offense.

 

[john h]

When we drafted Ryan Williams I was more then a little dissapointed. Here we are at the top of the 2nd rd with Reed and Ayers sitting there for the taking. This is suppose to be a strong RB class and there should be value into round
5.

Ayers scares me a bit and I have heard negatives about Reed so I'm not that concerned anymore. Then I think about why the Pats didn't draft one of these guys and instead went with a injury riddled (to use Mitch's phrase) CB.
Well he probably was the last top notch CB left in a weak CB class so okay maybe that's why they didn't go OLB. Then later in the 2nd the Pats draft a RB and again aren't jumping on any OLBers. I still think their need is greater than ours at that position.

The Pats had 2 more picks in the 3rd rd and then draft another RB and Mallet. Zero need for Mallet, actually a rather risky pick.

I'm just not sure that the OLBers that were available to us were the answer for us. I also remember more then one poster screaming for Acho starting in
rd2 and yet we get him in rd4. The Jets need an OLB more then a 3-4 DE but they didn't take an OLB either.

The frustrating thing is that next year the biggest need will be to draft a QBOTF so pass rusher will again have to wait, at least until later in the draft.

Mallet for NE is a high risk high reward pick and will have time to learn from the best. NE in not noted for making bad picks and picked up Brady in round 7. Mallet will be on that team a lot longer than Matt was on our team and will be the QB in waiting. I think a good value pick for them. We rolled the dice on not drafting a QB and that is why Kipper gave us a C on drafting for need and a B+ in drafting for value. There is a lot of teams going to be after the FA QBs so it is not as though we have our pick. As a team who finished last we are not likely to be a highly valued destination for a QB unless he wants to start. How many teams are looking for a starting QB will be most important.

 

[john h]

Kolb

.

The frustrating thing is that next year the biggest need will be to draft a QBOTF so pass rusher will again have to wait, at least until later in the draft.

Not necessarily but more than likely unfortunately....can you spell
K-O-L-B??[/QUOTE]

Kolb spelled backwards is BLOK. That is what Harry Carry would say.

 

[Russ Smith]

The thing will Mallet is here in Arizona was likely not a good spot for him, NE is. In NE there is no pressure for him to play right away, and he's in an organization that is equipped to teach him, and around players that will show him what it takes to be an NFL QB. If he is too immature or wants to party too much etc, he won't make it, but it won't be their fault.

With us look at Leinart, after Kurt beat him out he was in a similar spot not having to play and learning from a great veteran, the problem was as a high #1 pick him not starting was seen as a total failure and put tons of pressure on him and the organization which I think clearly stunted his development.

Nobody is going to be wondering if Mallet isn't starting in 2 years, with Brady still there. Here as great as Kurt was, people were still wondering why the hell is Matt holding a clipboard.

 

[john h]

Past Cardinal Drafts

Can you recall the most excited you were in a past Cardinal draft I can and it was the draft where we got Neil Lomax and some other good players. E.J. Junior was our first pick and Neil Lomax our second. After that I was to excited to remember any of the other guys. This was 1981 and we were then the St Louis Cardinals.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Here as great as Kurt was, people were still wondering why the hell is Matt holding a clipboard.

Ha, at least they know now...

 

[crisper57]

As for picking a RB over OLB in round 2...I'm perfectly fine with R. Williams over Reed, Ayers and especially Carter. I think I would have gone with Mikel Leshoure personally as I feel he's a safer pick, but Ryan Williams is a very good back too. Personally, I feel Williams is an upgrade over our current RB's, none of whom I'm very enamored with at the present anyhow..well..with the exception of LSH.

I agree, I love LSH. I couldn't help but notice that this draft really made him expendable though. Honestly, did anyone on our team get screwed more than LSH in this draft? We got a new kick returner and a new RB. I'm hoping he is still on the team when the season starts, because he's shown he's a gamer.

 

[Russ Smith]

I agree, I love LSH. I couldn't help but notice that this draft really made him expendable though. Honestly, did anyone on our team get screwed more than LSH in this draft? We got a new kick returner and a new RB. I'm hoping he is still on the team when the season starts, because he's shown he's a gamer.

Peterson is probably going to return punts, not KO's, so LSH is still going to be our KOR.