Saturday Morning Raisin Bran: Raisin' Arizona

82CardsGrad

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Simple. The number of snaps that will keep him most able to help the team win. How much a player is paid is irrelevant. Once a guy is signed the only important thing is how can he help us watch the Cardinals win.

We saw what happens when a player is used according to how much he makes instead of where he can best help the team win with the Leonard Davis move to Left Tackle.


I know... it's just hard to get comfy with paying a guy $5 million to play a down or two per series...
Anyway - I was never on board with the Porter signing... waste of money from the get-go.
 

kerouac9

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Simple. The number of snaps that will keep him most able to help the team win. How much a player is paid is irrelevant. Once a guy is signed the only important thing is how can he help us watch the Cardinals win.

We saw what happens when a player is used according to how much he makes instead of where he can best help the team win with the Leonard Davis move to Left Tackle.

The move that made him a two-time Pro Bowl alternate in a Conference where he played with Walter Jones and Orlando Pace?

Leonard Davis was an above-average left tackle when he was here. Comparisons to Levi Brown aren't fair to either player. In truth, he is a much, much better left guard (watching him blow up defensive linemen is the best reason to inflict a Dallas game on yourself--he still does it with regularity)--but it's the difference between being an All-Pro and being a Pro Bowl alternate.
 

Duckjake

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The move that made him a two-time Pro Bowl alternate in a Conference where he played with Walter Jones and Orlando Pace?

Leonard Davis was an above-average left tackle when he was here. Comparisons to Levi Brown aren't fair to either player. In truth, he is a much, much better left guard (watching him blow up defensive linemen is the best reason to inflict a Dallas game on yourself--he still does it with regularity)--but it's the difference between being an All-Pro and being a Pro Bowl alternate.

So are you saying moving an all-pro Guard to Left Tackle simply because he made too much money to play Guard was a good or bad move?

I will always compare Levi Brown to LD. He looks like Leonard, wears the same number and had problems with the snap count and has people saying he is better suited to play Guard. :D
 

Mulli

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I am convinced Whis is a great coach, and this will be a great year. If there is one.

:koolaid:
 

kerouac9

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So are you saying moving an all-pro Guard to Left Tackle simply because he made too much money to play Guard was a good or bad move?

I will always compare Levi Brown to LD. He looks like Leonard, wears the same number and had problems with the snap count and has people saying he is better suited to play Guard. :D

If you have an All Pro guard that is essentially a Pro Bowl left tackle, then you move him to left tackle, especially if you have L.J. Shelton at left tackle, who doesn't really care about football or getting better. Especially if you're not going to run the ball, anyway.
 

Duckjake

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If you have an All Pro guard that is essentially a Pro Bowl left tackle, then you move him to left tackle, especially if you have L.J. Shelton at left tackle, who doesn't really care about football or getting better. Especially if you're not going to run the ball, anyway.

But you don't move a proven commodity at Guard and Right Tackle to Left Tackle where you have no idea how he will play simply because of how much money he makes.

Also I would think you are probably one of the few people who actually believe LD played at a Pro Bowl level at Left Tackle when he was in Arizona.

Oddly enough the following year after the move Denny signs Edge who has 337 carries and becomes the first Cardinal RB to go over 1000 yards since 1998.
 

kerouac9

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But you don't move a proven commodity at Guard and Right Tackle to Left Tackle where you have no idea how he will play simply because of how much money he makes.

Also I would think you are probably one of the few people who actually believe LD played at a Pro Bowl level at Left Tackle when he was in Arizona.

Oddly enough the following year after the move Denny signs Edge who has 337 carries and becomes the first Cardinal RB to go over 1000 yards since 1998.

Big wasn't a proven commodity at guard when he was moved. He'd played all over the line--right guard, right tackle, left guard. I think he'd played mostly RT the year before because Clement had suffered from back pain that year. He was first-team all rookie at guard his first season, but I don't think he played much there after.
 

Duckjake

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Big wasn't a proven commodity at guard when he was moved. He'd played all over the line--right guard, right tackle, left guard. I think he'd played mostly RT the year before because Clement had suffered from back pain that year. He was first-team all rookie at guard his first season, but I don't think he played much there after.

LD started 16 games at RG in 2001 and started 14 games there in 2003. He played RT in 2002. He never played on the left side that I can recall until Denny moved him to LT.
 

Duckjake

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So the 5-11 season with young players doesn't suggest that this is true, and the list of Whisenhunt draftees that have failed or are underperforming doesn't suggest that this is true, but if we don't go 8-8 or better in 2011 you're going to come to me and say that I was right all along and that Whis needs to go?

Because I don't want to hear you next season complaining that Whis continues to not get his way with draft picks or free agents and this is all on Rod Graves.

I'm pretty sure that the evidence for Whis being a poor developer of players is fairly clear over his tenure so far. But if you need another season of awful football to see it, I'll hear from you in January.

EDIT: Do you mean Matt Williamson or Bill Williamson? Bill Williamson is their AFC East Blogger. Matt Williamson is their "Scout" who worked for the Browns for one season under Jeremy Green and doesn't know any more about football than you or I--except that he's a shameless Pittsburgh homer and will fall all over himself to prop up a Steeler like Grimm.

I said it when we hired Grimm, and it's still true. When Grimm was a head coaching candidate in Pittsburgh, he had four offensive linemen who were first- or second-round picks and they were all established veterans. Any coach should be able to succeed in that situation. Levi Brown--Grimm's hand-picked left tackle--has been a failure as a top 5 pick, and it's difficult to say that this offensive line is better now than it was when he found it. He's maybe developed Brandon Keith, but no one else has gotten better during his tenure here.

The problem on the offensive line is not talent. Our offensive line is as talented as any in the NFL. The problem on the offensive line is scheme, technique, and game-plan. I've never seen a bigger disconnect between what the offensive line is built to do and what the offensive system actually does. That's not all on Grimm, but he's sat there and let it happen for the last four seasons.

The Cards really have gone back to 2003.

From March 2003:

Hey, guys. Someone cut me down from the shower rod that I was hanging myself on after Wednesday, so I figured I'd post something new to talk about while biting my fingernails over the next free agent signing...

The general idea of this thread is to ask the question: Why can't the Arizona Cardinal's coaching staff develop talent, particularly on Defense?

Look at the history: Simeon Rice was good here, made the Pro Bowl as an alternate, but didn't flourish until he went to Tampa. When he got there, he said that he was marinading here, and finally started cooking once he got out. Tommy Knight was supposed to be the next great shut-down corner when he was drafted, but never made The Leap. We all know that Adrian Wilson is supposed to be a monster play-maker, but he hasn't made The Leap yet, and, as his staunchest defender, even I'm starting to wonder if it's going to happen. We drafted KVB, but he hasn't done anything but move jerseys. We drafted Darrin (Darwin?) Walker, but released him for some reason.

On offense, everyone knew that Jake had nice talent, and exhibited it his first couple seasons, then he started regressing, and no one worked on him to go against his tendencies, which everyone exploited. McCown looked basically the same in his appearances during the regular season as he did in the first game of the preseason. Did he learn anything in 3/4 of a season as the backup? Have L.J. Shelton or Big improved since being drafted because of the techniques they've learned over the past two or three years, or are they still playing off size and talent?

The long and short of it is that coaching is so important to a young team. The problem that we've had all these seasons with no depth when people go down is because the backups aren't properly coached or prepared for coming in in those situations. The Packers were nearly as banged up as we were during the season, but they still played well :shock: , despite only having slightly better talent.

Thoughts?

:bang:

Well at least we can look forward to a SB appearance in 2015. :koolaid:
 

Krangodnzr

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So the 5-11 season with young players doesn't suggest that this is true, and the list of Whisenhunt draftees that have failed or are underperforming doesn't suggest that this is true, but if we don't go 8-8 or better in 2011 you're going to come to me and say that I was right all along and that Whis needs to go?

If I had a severe case of myopia, I may agree with you right away, but I have the privilege of seeing the big picture and all the context that comes with it. One bad season with significant free agency defections won't make me think that a near Super Bowl winning coach stinks. I know you're the cyncial, piss in everyone's corn flakes type, but I tend to take a more conservative view and judge the situation when there is a bit more evidence. I am an intelligence analyst by profession. :)

The 5-11 season was caused by a these major factors:

1. The retirement of Kurt Warner.
2. The loss of Karlos Dansby and Bert Berry/Chike Okeafor
3. The trade and injury problems at WR
4. Cutting of Matt Leinart


Where does Whisenhunt take the blame here? 2 (the pass rush) and 4 in my opinion. Not enough draft picks have been spent to address OLB; Cody Brown, and a few late picks is not exactly the best way to address such a vital position. Sure he missed on a few picks, but by your estimation Whisenhunt must do all the scouting because obviously he has full control and all the mistakes are his own. The scouting staff obviously doesn't evaluate the players, because the fault is only on him.

Sarcasm aside, what I'm getting at is that generally the scouting staff takes input from the coach on the type of players he wants for his scheme. The scouts go out and find those players and create a list of players that fit that scheme. What we don't know is where the disconnect has been. Players like Calais Campbell, Daryl Washington, Dan Williams, and Brandon Keith have fit what Whisenhunt wants to do. But then you have picks like Alan Branch and Buster Davis that were quickly exposed as being poor fits.

Because I don't want to hear you next season complaining that Whis continues to not get his way with draft picks or free agents and this is all on Rod Graves.

<SIGH> I reserve the right to, because the proof will be substantial by that point in time. This is what I'm talking about; You're quick to dismiss the resume of the greatest coach in Cardinals history just because he has a bad season in the midst of major personnel turnover that were either inevitable (Warner/Berry/Okeafor) or were caused by inaction/poor planning by the front office (Rolle/Dansby/Boldin).

I'm a big enough man, and am humble enough to admit when I'm wrong. The question is: Are you?

Whisenhunt has made his share of mistakes, but I don't think it's fair that you admonish him for his faults, when the same crap (front office) that was in place through out the past decade continues to fail. Whisenhunt has shown that he shouldn't have full control of personnel (cutting Matt Leinart), but he's also shown he can coach this team to a Super Bowl. I've advocated that there needs to be change in the front office before this team can truly turn the corner and that Whisenhunt the coach is not the problem, but he clearly shouldn't have full control.

But you twist my words, or fail to understand what I write and constantly state that I believe Whisenhunt should receive none of the blame.

I'm pretty sure that the evidence for Whis being a poor developer of players is fairly clear over his tenure so far. But if you need another season of awful football to see it, I'll hear from you in January.

In your opinion it's clear, but other people (such as myself) see it quite differently. When I look at this roster I see a number of players that have developed. Sendlein, Keith, Campbell, Dan Williams, DRC, Rolle, Toler, Daryl Washington, Hightower, Breaston, Roberts, LSH all have all shown improvement under Whisenhunt to some extent.

On one hand you talk about the team never keeping and developing our young talent and not replacing it and you heap all of the blame on Whisenhunt. Yet when I look at the situation, I see guys like Dansby and Rolle walking and the ]front office failing to resign them. Yet you want to heap all of the blame on Whisenhunt.

EDIT: Do you mean Matt Williamson or Bill Williamson? Bill Williamson is their AFC East Blogger. Matt Williamson is their "Scout" who worked for the Browns for one season under Jeremy Green and doesn't know any more about football than you or I--except that he's a shameless Pittsburgh homer and will fall all over himself to prop up a Steeler like Grimm.

Yeah we get it, you know more about football than people that have actually worked in the NFL. It's funny that you use parenthesis for "scout", when the guy has actually been employed as a scout, while you have not.

I said it when we hired Grimm, and it's still true. When Grimm was a head coaching candidate in Pittsburgh, he had four offensive linemen who were first- or second-round picks and they were all established veterans. Any coach should be able to succeed in that situation. Levi Brown--Grimm's hand-picked left tackle--has been a failure as a top 5 pick, and it's difficult to say that this offensive line is better now than it was when he found it. He's maybe developed Brandon Keith, but no one else has gotten better during his tenure here.

[SARCASM] Brilliant point! Grimm didn't suck when he had talent! Having lots of high picks used on your offensive line ensures success. Ask Dave Mac how that Big Red line with all the high picks worked out! Or ask Mean Joe Greene how his defensive line with 3 first round picks worked out. Guaranteed win. [/SARCASM]

Lyle Sendlein has, but we haven't exactly used many picks on the offensive over Whisenhunt's tenure. In fact ESPN posted that after drafting Levi Brown, we have used the least draft capital in the league over that span.

The problem on the offensive line is not talent. Our offensive line is as talented as any in the NFL. The problem on the offensive line is scheme, technique, and game-plan. I've never seen a bigger disconnect between what the offensive line is built to do and what the offensive system actually does. That's not all on Grimm, but he's sat there and let it happen for the last four seasons.

Levi Brown is the worst starting LT in the NFL by a wide margin. Alan Faneca was likely in the top five worst starting guards in the NFL last year. As much as I liked some of what I saw from Keith, he had like three games where he was probably the worst starting tackle in the NFL. I just don't see what you see Kerouac; the talent on this offensive line was pathetic last year.
 

JeffGollin

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I know the temptation is to make sweeping, "global" observations about coaches and players in order to make our point, but I think we're overstating the case.

If someone can come up with one LT who's worse than Levi, it blows the "Levi Brown is the worst starting LT in the NFL by a wide margin" argument out of the water.

I'd also be surprised if we couldn't come up with more than 5 left or right guards who were worse than #66.

There are examples on our roster of "talent we've developed"; most notably: Branch (who's actually outperformed low initial expectations), DRC and Toler (both of whom were raw as rain as rookies), D Washington (who at times played like veteran as a rookie) and Schofield (who wasn't expected to play at all last season). And, on the other side of the ball, what about LSH?

Of course, there exceptions you can use to make your case (most notably: Beanie, Levi, the TE's, Leinart and, I'd argue, both Lutui and Keith).

But that's the way it goes with most NFL teams - sometimes you strike it rich and sometimes you strike out. What you hope for is that there are more home runs than whiffs - enough so to put you in the playoffs.

I think the legitimate case can be made that we need to do a better job across the board of developing our young players, but I don't think this should mean that we've been a total failure in this dept. or that we should blow up the entire coaching staff.

There are very few "absolutes" in building a winner. Usually it's more a matter of how many more pluses than minuses we can gather to put us over the top.
 
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kerouac9

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If I had a severe case of myopia, I may agree with you right away, but I have the privilege of seeing the big picture and all the context that comes with it. One bad season with significant free agency defections won't make me think that a near Super Bowl winning coach stinks. I know you're the cyncial, piss in everyone's corn flakes type, but I tend to take a more conservative view and judge the situation when there is a bit more evidence. I am an intelligence analyst by profession. :)

The 5-11 season was caused by a these major factors:

1. The retirement of Kurt Warner.
2. The loss of Karlos Dansby and Bert Berry/Chike Okeafor
3. The trade and injury problems at WR
4. Cutting of Matt Leinart


Where does Whisenhunt take the blame here? 2 (the pass rush) and 4 in my opinion. Not enough draft picks have been spent to address OLB; Cody Brown, and a few late picks is not exactly the best way to address such a vital position. Sure he missed on a few picks, but by your estimation Whisenhunt must do all the scouting because obviously he has full control and all the mistakes are his own. The scouting staff obviously doesn't evaluate the players, because the fault is only on him.

Sarcasm aside, what I'm getting at is that generally the scouting staff takes input from the coach on the type of players he wants for his scheme. The scouts go out and find those players and create a list of players that fit that scheme. What we don't know is where the disconnect has been. Players like Calais Campbell, Daryl Washington, Dan Williams, and Brandon Keith have fit what Whisenhunt wants to do. But then you have picks like Alan Branch and Buster Davis that were quickly exposed as being poor fits.



<SIGH> I reserve the right to, because the proof will be substantial by that point in time. This is what I'm talking about; You're quick to dismiss the resume of the greatest coach in Cardinals history just because he has a bad season in the midst of major personnel turnover that were either inevitable (Warner/Berry/Okeafor) or were caused by inaction/poor planning by the front office (Rolle/Dansby/Boldin).

I'm a big enough man, and am humble enough to admit when I'm wrong. The question is: Are you?

Whisenhunt has made his share of mistakes, but I don't think it's fair that you admonish him for his faults, when the same crap (front office) that was in place through out the past decade continues to fail. Whisenhunt has shown that he shouldn't have full control of personnel (cutting Matt Leinart), but he's also shown he can coach this team to a Super Bowl. I've advocated that there needs to be change in the front office before this team can truly turn the corner and that Whisenhunt the coach is not the problem, but he clearly shouldn't have full control.

But you twist my words, or fail to understand what I write and constantly state that I believe Whisenhunt should receive none of the blame.



In your opinion it's clear, but other people (such as myself) see it quite differently. When I look at this roster I see a number of players that have developed. Sendlein, Keith, Campbell, Dan Williams, DRC, Rolle, Toler, Daryl Washington, Hightower, Breaston, Roberts, LSH all have all shown improvement under Whisenhunt to some extent.

On one hand you talk about the team never keeping and developing our young talent and not replacing it and you heap all of the blame on Whisenhunt. Yet when I look at the situation, I see guys like Dansby and Rolle walking and the ]front office failing to resign them. Yet you want to heap all of the blame on Whisenhunt.



Yeah we get it, you know more about football than people that have actually worked in the NFL. It's funny that you use parenthesis for "scout", when the guy has actually been employed as a scout, while you have not.



[SARCASM] Brilliant point! Grimm didn't suck when he had talent! Having lots of high picks used on your offensive line ensures success. Ask Dave Mac how that Big Red line with all the high picks worked out! Or ask Mean Joe Greene how his defensive line with 3 first round picks worked out. Guaranteed win. [/SARCASM]

Lyle Sendlein has, but we haven't exactly used many picks on the offensive over Whisenhunt's tenure. In fact ESPN posted that after drafting Levi Brown, we have used the least draft capital in the league over that span.



Levi Brown is the worst starting LT in the NFL by a wide margin. Alan Faneca was likely in the top five worst starting guards in the NFL last year. As much as I liked some of what I saw from Keith, he had like three games where he was probably the worst starting tackle in the NFL. I just don't see what you see Kerouac; the talent on this offensive line was pathetic last year.

Blah blah blah. I don't see how you can give Whis full credit as a "near Super-Bowl Winning Coach" when it was Kurt Warner, running a modified Martz offense, who lead us on our two playoff runs. Take out one part of that equation--Kurt Warner--and not only was Whis not able to find a solution to the problem in four years--either through free agency or the draft--but he wasn't even able to make the team competitive without an MVP quarterback.

Was Jimmy Johnson a Hall of Fame head coach because he rode Dan Marino's coattails to 36 wins over 4 seasons and 3 playoff appearances? Because he was at the top of the Dallas Cowboys when they were the most talented team in the NFL?

I'm not saying that Whis is a bad coach; you're highlighting the contradiction in terms that is "military intelligence" [/sarcasm]. I'm saying that Whisenhunt is probably the wrong coach for a young team. I illustrated why that isn't necessarily bad. Marty Schottenheimer is an excellent coach for a young team, but can't get them over the hump. Jon Gruden is an excellent coach for a veteran team, but couldn't develop his own players, either.

It's hilarious to me that you're citing Daryl Washington (who got benched mid-season for poor play and didn't improve over the course of the year), Dan Williams (who was consistent all season in a backup role), Tim Hightower (who is exactly the same player is he now than when he was drafted--including the fumbling problems), Breaston (whose production has declined the last three seasons), and Keith (who you admit was the worst RT in the NFL for his first three games, and then three later he was on IR) as examples of guys the Whis staff has "developed." Developed into what? A 5-11 team?

Meanwhile, all of the quarterbacks we started this season (and aren't those the players with the closest relationship to our offense-oriented HC?) got worse the more time they had in the offense, to the point where our most promising player in Skelton got benched in the second half of the season finale for a guy who couldn't start in the UFL.

Excellent work. We should sign him to another extension. People said that I was wrong about Dave McGinnis, too.
 

Duckjake

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Where does Whisenhunt take the blame here? 2 (the pass rush) and 4 in my opinion. Not enough draft picks have been spent to address OLB; Cody Brown, and a few late picks is not exactly the best way to address such a vital position. Sure he missed on a few picks, but by your estimation Whisenhunt must do all the scouting because obviously he has full control and all the mistakes are his own. The scouting staff obviously doesn't evaluate the players, because the fault is only on him.

Player development aside my biggest concern with CKW is that the team just doesn't stay focused and last year couldn't maintain any momentum. I understand we had a lot of young players in '10 but we also had a bunch of seasoned vets (too seasoned in some cases) like Dockett, Wilson, Hayes and Haggens as well as newcomers Porter and Faneca and Rhodes.

I just can't understand how a team with those veterans can get a big win over Denver with their rookie QB and then not show up the next week vs a horrible Carolina team. Or how they can pull out a great win over Dallas and then turn around and lay an egg the next week vs SF.

They also lay down and quit after getting Farved in Minnesota: 38-16, 31-13, 27-6, and 19-6 losses the next 4 weeks.

The abysmal showing vs SF in week 17 really has me concerned as to the mindset of the football team coming back this fall.
 

kerouac9

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Just one more thing on Matt Williamson

I didn't address this directly in my last post, but I wanted to say a few words about Matty-Dub.

I don't subscribe to In$ider, but I listen to the ESPN Football Today podcast every week, and have been listening to it for years. Matt Williamson took over for Jeremy Green last year, so I've gotten a lot of Williamson's reads on the NFL over the last year and a half or so.

I know that you're in the military, Krang, so I understand that you're trained not to question authority figures, but Matt Williamson doesn't know anything. He's the perfect example of the idea that a lot of people in football don't know more than the educated fan. He doesn't have inside access because he's been out of the NFL since Butch Davis got fired in Cleveland. He worked in the recruitment office at Pitt before that. He talks a much bigger game than he delivers, which is one reason why he's working for ESPN and not a mid-level personnel man somewhere in the NFL. He was a part of one of the most toothless scouting departments in the NFL at the time.

So, no, I don't have a lot of knee-jerk respect for Matt Williamson. If you listen to his ideas over time, then you might learn that, as well. Of course, if you just parrot the talking heads on ESPN who agree with what you already think, then you don't have to do much of your own intelligence analysis, do you?
 

earthsci

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Not picking sides but k9 is right about Matt Williamson. He's a tool-time idiot.
 

Crazy Canuck

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K-9: So Krang is in the military and therefore can't think for himself.

A generalization along the lines of: "Those who can do, and those who can't teach." ;)
 

kerouac9

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K-9: So Krang is in the military and therefore can't think for himself.

A generalization along the lines of: "Those who can do, and those who can't teach." ;)

That's not what I said. I said that the military tradition is to follow orders from those in positions of authority. That's the only way that the military can work. If that means that the Defense Department is told to find evidence of WMDs in Iraq, then they report such evidence whether it actually exists or not.

I somewhat agree with the second maxim. If I could write the next bestselling thriller, I probably wouldn't be teaching. If my gym coach could run a 4.3 40, then he wouldn't be teaching gym. That doesn't mean that many teachers don't do incredible work, or that all teachers are people who failed at other pursuits.

Because I'm merely an above-average writer doesn't mean that I am not an exceptional educator.

On the other hand, we all know that chiropractors are failed med school students. :D
 

Krangodnzr

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Kerouac, you know jack squat about me and you obviously have no understanding of the military or intelligence for that matter. Real classy to attack my military background.

:thumbsdown:
 

Krangodnzr

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Player development aside my biggest concern with CKW is that the team just doesn't stay focused and last year couldn't maintain any momentum. I understand we had a lot of young players in '10 but we also had a bunch of seasoned vets (too seasoned in some cases) like Dockett, Wilson, Hayes and Haggens as well as newcomers Porter and Faneca and Rhodes.

I tend to thing that this is a problem with the players and not the coach. This team played this way before Whisenhunt got here, he was just able to (for 3/4's of his time here) get them to win a few more a year that the team wasn't able to win under Denny MacTobin.

It's a legitimate question, I do agree, but why I still have faith in Whisenhunt is his ability to win the big game. More often that not he has been able to.

I just can't understand how a team with those veterans can get a big win over Denver with their rookie QB and then not show up the next week vs a horrible Carolina team. Or how they can pull out a great win over Dallas and then turn around and lay an egg the next week vs SF.

One thing I know I can bank on, is that the Carolina Panthers will beat the Arizona Cardinals no matter what team is better. John Fox has our number.

They also lay down and quit after getting Farved in Minnesota: 38-16, 31-13, 27-6, and 19-6 losses the next 4 weeks.

The abysmal showing vs SF in week 17 really has me concerned as to the mindset of the football team coming back this fall.

This team quit last year. IMO guys like Dockett, DRC, and Wilson (injury or not) just didn't show up for many games this year. Like I said in the first paragraph, it may be a trait of these guys as players, since the problem existed prior to coach Whisenhunt's arrival.
 

Duckjake

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Like I said in the first paragraph, it may be a trait of these guys as players, since the problem existed prior to coach Whisenhunt's arrival.

And that is exactly what I am concerned about with CKW; that he hasn't been able to do any better in that area than his predecessors who were 5-11 every year.

The roster doesn't stay the same every year. A coach with good skills in this area should be able to stop the passing down of this attitude from the old players to the new players.

So I'm not letting CKW off the hook on this one.
 

Krangodnzr

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And that is exactly what I am concerned about with CKW; that he hasn't been able to do any better in that area than his predecessors who were 5-11 every year.

The roster doesn't stay the same every year. A coach with good skills in this area should be able to stop the passing down of this attitude from the old players to the new players.

So I'm not letting CKW off the hook on this one.

Like I said in an earlier post, I tend to take a balanced, conservative view of the situation. We had 3 "good" seasons under Coach Ken Whisenhunt, and one "bad" season. The bad season was predicated by quite a bit of roster turnover and a few personnel blunders.

Is Coach Whisenhunt off the hook? Definitely not, but I still think the front office/ownership still hasn't fully changed. If I were to call for anyone's head, I would call for Rod Graves head. IMO the list of his blunders heavily outweighs the list of his successes. I would promote Steve Keim to GM and purge the scouting staff a bit. I would have Whisenhunt involved in the personnel process, but I would strip some of his control.

I think this team can win with Coach Whisenhunt, but there are quite a few "ifs" that will have to happen to get back to the winning ways. IMO we'll need 3 of our young defenders to really step up their game. We'll need a QB to step in and play pretty well. And we'll need one of the RBs to become a solid starter. Oh yeah, we'll also need for either Doucet to become a legit receiver, Steve Breaston to bounce back, or Roberts becoming a legit starting NFL receiver. That's a lot of if's to get back to where we were, so I think that the best we can do in the short term is win the NFC West and play a playoff game or two.
 

Duckjake

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Like I said in an earlier post, I tend to take a balanced, conservative view of the situation. We had 3 "good" seasons under Coach Ken Whisenhunt, and one "bad" season. The bad season was predicated by quite a bit of roster turnover and a few personnel blunders.

But even during the three good seasons the Cards were doing the same things.

Taking games off, coasting with leads, etc. Now without the veterans they had from 2007-2009 they get 5-11 doing that instead of 9-7.
 
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