Saturday Thoughts

[Mitch]

The more I think of it the more I like the deal. I don't think we do it until we know for sure if Thomas ain't there for us. That means if it happens it will be on day one of the draft. At 15 there is signifcant talent and of course we have a tackle who can play. Again, whatever we do the majority is going to object throwing up (literally and figuratively) the usual stuff.

I agree, lobo. The only problem is (re: waiting on Thomas)...this is a deal that likely would have to get done before the draft because the Cardinals would have to have a new contract negotiated for Starks, otherwise he could walk after one year...and you wouldn't want to make this trade for a one year rental.

 

[BigRedRage]

Whiz has said he likes a "downhill hit-the-hole-hard" back...whether it be a power back or a speed back, it doesn't matter as long as they are hitting the holes with authority.

This is why I believe he is enamored with Brain Leonard of Rutgers. This kid hits a hole like he's been shot out of a cannon. He's not the fastest, but he's quick to the hole and is super tough...H.B. Blades, the Pitt linebacker, called Leonard the toughest player he's ever played against...

And...if you saw the Senior Bowl, on two key short yardage situations, leonard hit the hole and knocked LB Patrick Willis three yards backward on both occasions for first downs, both of which sustained TD drives.

I guess I just dont see why edge cannot become this? He started hitting holes faster at the end of the year and is not in indianapolis anymore, everyone acts like ALL he can do is stretch plays and shake n bake but I saw him earn A TON of hard yards, digging his shoulders into people and chopping his feet to get as much as possible. I believe the edge shipp 1-2 punch will work great, especially behind terelle smith

 

[CardShark]

They arent really cap killers. What they do do is force teams to restrucutre players or extend them sooner then they want because the rookie contracts are heavily backloaded and are only really 4 year deals for the most part. it is all a matter of how you structure the deal and the Packers didnt do a very good job in that situation, but for the msot part teams do structure them correctly. But the point remians and still I still dont like paying for unproven talent like that.

He said do do.

 

[red desert]

Thanks Shark...

I too would very much like the Starks trade...for one I think this is a weak draft at the top...I don't think any of those players are worth what Hawk got at #5 last year: 6/$37.5M/$16M guaranteed. Secondly, I like what you said about Starks...you're right, he's not Walter Jones, but he's a solid player and Whiz and Grimm have faith in him. The mistake a lot of people make is that just because Joe Thomas is every draft magazine's poster boy for the tackle position, he still hasn't played one snap in the NFL, and no one can predict how well he'll do...he may turn out to be an average tackle. Starks comes in with three years of experience and he is just coming into his prime years...with Starks you pretty well know what you're getting.

By trading down to #15...the options there may be very exciting...some players will slide...imagine if Ted Ginn is there? Paul Posluszny? Lawrence Timmons? Joe Staley? Jamal Anderson? Who knows? Darelle Revis? Even Levi Brown might slide there if Miami and Atlanta don't take him.

Having a tackle already on board would give the Cardinals great flexibility here.

Plus the price tag at #15 is much more reasonable.

Hmmm.... Ted Ginn at #15. Okay, now that's where this guy would be a great pick.

 

[joeshmo]

He said do do.

 

[joeshmo]

Hmmm.... Ted Ginn at #15. Okay, now that's where this guy would be a great pick.

Even I wouldnt mind Ginn @ #15. I wouldnt be thrilled but I wouldnt be pissed off either. As long as Willis and Timmons are gone of course.

 

[Vermont Maverick]

And...if you saw the Senior Bowl, on two key short yardage situations, leonard hit the hole and knocked LB Patrick Willis three yards backward on both occasions for first downs, both of which sustained TD drives.

Is that the same Patrick Willis that some (ahem) have been clamoring for with the #5 overall pick in the draft?

 

[lobo]

I agree, lobo. The only problem is (re: waiting on Thomas)...this is a deal that likely would have to get done before the draft because the Cardinals would have to have a new contract negotiated for Starks, otherwise he could walk after one year...and you wouldn't want to make this trade for a one year rental.

Dead On Mitch. Everyone has to be locked and loaded and pull the trigger the minute they say we are on the clock. Can this be done quiety, I dunno' It is a powerful trade, fiscally very sensible, we know we get a highly servicable tackle, a 15 that can be a high quality LB, and on and on and on. I still look at a tackle in round two. Maybe we get lucky and snatch Staley. Marten is a low 3rd 4th rounder at best. Being from the area I saw Free play twice and I am not impressed as he surely is not a mauler. Why did I mentione fiscally sensibel?

Some members of our peanut gallery fail to look at the consequences at throwing too much money at one guy and how it fouls up the works throught the team. Imagine how some of the Cowboys are thinking about LD's guaranteed money and what is going to be the result of that.

Those lucky fans are all going to contribue to the cause to watch a very very ordinary LT play. I hope they like $10.00 flat beers.

 

[Goodyear Card]

3. As for the #5 pick in this year's draft...how comfortable are you with the fact that last year's #5 pick, LB A.J. Hawk, was signed to the following contract: 6 years @ $37.5M, with $16M guaranteed and an $11M option bonus due this spring (going into his second year)???

Rookie contracts like Hawk's are insane.

Do you wonder why it seems the same teams are drafting in the top ten every year? These outrageous contracts are salary cap killers.

The reality is that the Green Bay Packers are paying 5 times the money for Hawk than the Houston Texans are paying for LB DeMeco Ryans, the NFL's defensive ROY. It just so happened that the Texans were able to land Ryans with the #33 pick (1st pick of the 2nd round).

I agree with you Mitch. For that amount of money you could sign two or three high quality free agent starters. It is way too much money to spend on a unproven player. However, we are desperate for a LT. If Thomas is available we need to take him. Otherwise trade down. We might need to trade down more than once. We need for our first pick to be an OT or LB.

 

[joeshmo]

I agree with you Mitch. For that amount of money you could sign two or three high quality free agent starters.

I dont think thats true, especially getting 3 for that price. We signed a CB and a Center both of whom were backups last year for that same price.

You can barely get 1 high quaility starter for that price.

This is not your old CBA of 2 years ago anymore. The climate changed overnight.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Whiz has said he likes a "downhill hit-the-hole-hard" back...whether it be a power back or a speed back, it doesn't matter as long as they are hitting the holes with authority.

This is why I believe he is enamored with Brain Leonard of Rutgers. This kid hits a hole like he's been shot out of a cannon. He's not the fastest, but he's quick to the hole and is super tough...H.B. Blades, the Pitt linebacker, called Leonard the toughest player he's ever played against...

And...if you saw the Senior Bowl, on two key short yardage situations, leonard hit the hole and knocked LB Patrick Willis three yards backward on both occasions for first downs, both of which sustained TD drives.

You are way, way too high on Brian Leonard. I for one, don't want a guy who couldn't be the main RB for Rutgers to be the main RB for the Cards. Rutgers took off when Rice became the main ball toter.There's a reason why Leonard was moved to FB.A coach just isn't going to take the ball out of his best players/runners hands so Leonard was not their best player.Schiano saw that Rice was much better at running the ball and put the ball in his hands and Leonard was moved. Leonard is probably a hard working, tough, hard-nosed guy. Those are all nice qualities. But, talentwise, he's limited when it comes to being a NFL RB. If the Cards are having Brian Leonard running the ball for them even 1/4 of the time then they are definitely drafting in the top 3 next year because their season has gone tremendously bad if he's a leading ball carrier.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

That would be sheer genius on the Cardinals part. Spend millions to bring in a high profile RB and then hire a head coach who doesn't prefer that type of RB.

Well, I wouldn't get so frustrated. Edge is a downhill runner. The problem is when the hill is constantly blocked by five boulders being pushed up back at you it is hard and unwise not to change course.

I really like how many on this board expect a running back to "hit the hole hard" when there is no hole to hit!!!! <---- What a dirty thing to day

Anyway, If Edge does not embrace an I formation running attack this season it would be a huge mistake on his part. At this point in his career Edge reminds me of a Emmitt Smith. Great vision, a big back that delivers a hit, good pass blocking, and still enough explosiveness to get some big chunks of yardage.

BTW - It is not like Whiz has had Willie Parker type guys his whole career. Actually it has been quite the opposite. He had Jerome Bettis, Duce Staley, Verron Haynes, and Najeh Davenport. These are not exactly speed demons.

So if you are trying to sell me on the fact that Edge doesn't have the right skills you can tell your story walking. Cause it is a load of BS!

You are not going to find a better back for next season than Edge, who by the way rushed for over 1,000 yards behind one of, if not THE worse line in the league, with a mid season change at offensive coordinator, with a constantly changing offensive line that sucks to begin with, and be it his first year with the team.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Whiz won't even listen to Edge complaining about a lack of carries once the games start. Whiz's offense won't be catered to Edge's desires. Do not be surpised at all if Edge winds up sitting on the bench, especially if Whiz gets his hands on a downhill, hit-the-hole hard RB...which ultimately is the type of RB Whiz prefers.

Mitch,

First things first. We need to have a hole for the RB's to hit. Then we can judge who hits what fast enough.

If we want a guy that is just going to run right to where the hole SHOULD BE then we already have him. Marcel Shipp will slam right into the line regardless if there is a hole there or not. Unfortunately, there usually isn't and unfortunately this usually is recorded for a 3 yard loss.

At least Edge has his eyes open, and will give us a chance. Before we declare Edge a back that will not hit the hole hard and get up the field why don't we supply him some holes in the line to hit ?

The nice thing about Edge is that when there is no hole to be found he also can find a way to at least get 2 or 3 POSITIVE yards. Just like he did last year when he became the first Cardinal RB in eight years to run for over 1,000 yards. Actually he ran for 1,100 yards which is what most of us thought he was going to run for before the 2006 season started. So, Edge actually performed as advertised.

 

[Shogun]

You are way, way too high on Brian Leonard. I for one, don't want a guy who couldn't be the main RB for Rutgers to be the main RB for the Cards. Rutgers took off when Rice became the main ball toter.There's a reason why Leonard was moved to FB.A coach just isn't going to take the ball out of his best players/runners hands so Leonard was not their best player.Schiano saw that Rice was much better at running the ball and put the ball in his hands and Leonard was moved. Leonard is probably a hard working, tough, hard-nosed guy. Those are all nice qualities. But, talentwise, he's limited when it comes to being a NFL RB. If the Cards are having Brian Leonard running the ball for them even 1/4 of the time then they are definitely drafting in the top 3 next year because their season has gone tremendously bad if he's a leading ball carrier.

Word. You're REALLY too high on Leonard, Mitch.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Word. You're REALLY too high on Leonard, Mitch.

He is so high on him, and yet expects him to be there in the 3rd. If he is as good as Mitch claims, he should be long gone by the 3rd pick.

 

[vinnymac]

You are way, way too high on Brian Leonard. I for one, don't want a guy who couldn't be the main RB for Rutgers to be the main RB for the Cards. Rutgers took off when Rice became the main ball toter.There's a reason why Leonard was moved to FB.A coach just isn't going to take the ball out of his best players/runners hands so Leonard was not their best player.Schiano saw that Rice was much better at running the ball and put the ball in his hands and Leonard was moved. Leonard is probably a hard working, tough, hard-nosed guy. Those are all nice qualities. But, talentwise, he's limited when it comes to being a NFL RB. If the Cards are having Brian Leonard running the ball for them even 1/4 of the time then they are definitely drafting in the top 3 next year because their season has gone tremendously bad if he's a leading ball carrier.

I couldn't agree with you more. Leonard is one of those players who is getting over hyped. 2nd round is to high to draft this guy. I say wait until the fourth round to draft him.

 

[Russ Smith]

Langston Moore was cut after he jumped into the neutral zone for about the 10th time and let the opposition have a first down.

If I remember right LM had been jumping offsides a lot and Denny laid the law down. The next game he jumped again and Denny gave him the axe.

That's pretty much what Ron Wolfley said on air the week after Moore was cut. He said "we've been saying all year, Moore is a guesser, he gets off the line fast because he guesses the snap count. The problem is he guesses wrong too much and is offsides. For a part time player to get that many penalties apparently just didn't sit well with Denny."

He did get penetration, there were some plays he made that you were amazed how quickly he got there. But they basically said the word was out around the league that he guessed so teams just varied their snap count and made him jump offsides.

I didn't like it at the time but in hindsight Watson played better.

 

[Mitch]

You are way, way too high on Brian Leonard. I for one, don't want a guy who couldn't be the main RB for Rutgers to be the main RB for the Cards. Rutgers took off when Rice became the main ball toter.There's a reason why Leonard was moved to FB.A coach just isn't going to take the ball out of his best players/runners hands so Leonard was not their best player.Schiano saw that Rice was much better at running the ball and put the ball in his hands and Leonard was moved. Leonard is probably a hard working, tough, hard-nosed guy. Those are all nice qualities. But, talentwise, he's limited when it comes to being a NFL RB. If the Cards are having Brian Leonard running the ball for them even 1/4 of the time then they are definitely drafting in the top 3 next year because their season has gone tremendously bad if he's a leading ball carrier.

First of all, Whiz likes two backs to share the load, and Leonard would fit that bill nicely as the #2 because of how hard he runs and how versatile (he may be the best pass catching RB in the draft) he is.

Leonard shared the load (as #2 option) at Rutgers with Ray Rice and here in Arizona he would share the load with Edge as the #2 option.

It also should be noted that I am speculating that Leonard would be very high on Whiz's list...he fits the profile that Whiz has championed...a super committed player in the weight room and on and off the field...and you look at the way this kid hits the hole, he's made to order as a #2 back in Whiz's system because of what a tough, high effort player he is.

Whiz is trying to change the mentality in Arizona...and he will draft players who he thinks will bring leadership, winning attitude/approach and commitment to the organization. Leonard fits the bill on all counts there too.

Of course, if the Cardinals take RB Adrian Peterson at #5...this discussion is moot.

Would I take Leonard in Round 2 if he is available? Again, I have been speculating what Whiz will do.

I think at #38 there will be some very interesting options for the Cards there, and more than likely there may be a better fit for the Cardinals' needs there.

Would I be disappointed if Whiz took Leonard in Round 2? Not at all. It may be as smart a move as Whiz could make.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

First of all, Whiz likes two backs to share the load, and Leonard would fit that bill nicely as the #2 because of how hard he runs and how versatile (he may be the best pass catching RB in the draft) he is.

Leonard shared the load (as #2 option) at Rutgers with Ray Rice and here in Arizona he would share the load with Edge as the #2 option.

It also should be noted that I am speculating that Leonard would be very high on Whiz's list...he fits the profile that Whiz has championed...a super committed player in the weight room and on and off the field...and you look at the way this kid hits the hole, he's made to order as a #2 back in Whiz's system because of what a tough, high effort player he is.

Whiz is trying to change the mentality in Arizona...and he will draft players who he thinks will bring leadership, winning attitude/approach and commitment to the organization. Leonard fits the bill on all counts there too.

Of course, if the Cardinals take RB Adrian Peterson at #5...this discussion is moot.

Would I take Leonard in Round 2 if he is available? Again, I have been speculating what Whiz will do.

I think at #38 there will be some very interesting options for the Cards there, and more than likely there may be a better fit for the Cardinals' needs there.

Would I be disappointed if Whiz took Leonard in Round 2? Not at all. It may be as smart a move as Whiz could make.

That's your opinion.Mine is that it would be a horrible mistake to take a guy at #38 who, most likely, will be,at best, a #2 player on the depth chart. All the attributes, attitudewise, you apply to Leonard can be achieved with guys
that you can select later in the draft. If our draft went something like Brown then Leonard,i would probably have to throw my computer out.I know i would be joining the likes of NEM and Tango on the banned list if it happened. I'm all for character guys but not at the expense of talent.Ideally you can get both like they did with Boldin, Fitz, and Leinart.