Saunders Fired

[Divide Et Impera]

Not necessarily. O'Neal > Marion, but JJ >>>>>>> Jackson and JJ = Artest. Then you factor in the brawl and Artest's history and the picks and cash we give, I think the trade is at least equal....

I was aware of the contradiction as I was typing the IND post, but good catch anyways....

 

[Chaplin]

Not necessarily. O'Neal > Marion, but JJ >>>>>>> Jackson and JJ = Artest. Then you factor in the brawl and Artest's history and the picks and cash we give, I think the trade is at least equal....

I was aware of the contradiction as I was typing the IND post, but good catch anyways....

Are you sure that Jermaine O'Neal is better than Marion?

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Are you sure that Jermaine O'Neal is better than Marion?

Not so sure, really. He gets the slight nod because he is a big, but JJ is leaps and bounds better than anyone else on IND's roster....

 

[elindholm]

He gets the slight nod because he is a big, but JJ is leaps and bounds better than anyone else on IND's roster....

I assume you mean Indiana's active roster. Artest is at least as good as Johnson, and his volatility is offset by Johnson's historic inconsistency.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

I don't see JJ as being so inconsistent anymore. His game against SEA was a bad one, but I don't think it goes beyond that anymore. I think a player can average 10-11ppg for a season while being inconsistent, but at 15-16ppg and above, I don't think that inconsistency can be considered....

Besides, Artest's volatility is MUCH MUCH more of a detractor than JJ's inconsistency. Just ask IND who had to play a whole year without Artest....

 

[elindholm]

I don't see JJ as being so inconsistent anymore. His game against SEA was a bad one, but I don't think it goes beyond that anymore.

I said his historical inconsistency, by which I meant throughout his career. I agree that he has been better this year, but it's only one season (or half of one, actually). I think any honest assessment of Johnson's value has to take into account the fact that he has had very little pressure on him on a night-to-night basis this year.

As far as Artest goes, his situation is similar to someone who is injury-prone. You're always worried that you might lose him, and once in a while calamity strikes and you have to do without him for a long time. But when he's "healthy," he brings a lot more to the table than Johnson does.

 

[Joe Mama]

Not that I believe the Timberwolves would trade Kevin Garnet, but if so, I don't think they would give him up for Shawn Marion and JJ (re-signed). I'm not even sure that would be possible for a while. Those guys are complementary players. The Timberwolves will want a #1 and then some draft picks and other pieces. They aren't going to give him away unless he robs a bank, assaults a child, or something like that. Even then the price would be hefty.

Chaplin, are we sure that Jermaine O'Neal is better than Shawn Marion? Even though they play the same position they are difficult to compare. However Jermaine O'Neal certainly has more value than Shawn Marion because of his size. He is a top big man, and that's the most valuable type player in the NBA.

It is fun to fantasize though. A team with KG, Amare, and Nash would be just sick.

Joe Mama

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Not that I believe the Timberwolves would trade Kevin Garnet, but if so, I don't think they would give him up for Shawn Marion and JJ (re-signed). I'm not even sure that would be possible for a while. Those guys are complementary players. The Timberwolves will want a #1 and then some draft picks and other pieces. They aren't going to give him away unless he robs a bank, assaults a child, or something like that. Even then the price would be hefty.

Chaplin, are we sure that Jermaine O'Neal is better than Shawn Marion? Even though they play the same position they are difficult to compare. However Jermaine O'Neal certainly has more value than Shawn Marion because of his size. He is a top big man, and that's the most valuable type player in the NBA.

It is fun to fantasize though. A team with KG, Amare, and Nash would be just sick.

Joe Mama

My trade idea was Marion/JJ1/#1/#2/cash

 

[Chaplin]

Chaplin, are we sure that Jermaine O'Neal is better than Shawn Marion? Even though they play the same position they are difficult to compare. However Jermaine O'Neal certainly has more value than Shawn Marion because of his size.

Why? IMO, the most important thing about being a "big" is the ability to get rebounds. Shawn is at least equal to Jermaine in that respect. Talk about shot blocking. Ok, O'Neal is certainly better than Shawn, but Shawn is light years better at getting steals--2 categories that really are similar in the frequency they occur (in fact, steals might be more valuable because they might be more frequent). So there's your draw.

So the only reason O'Neal has more value is the fact that he can defend against power players. Of course, this season, Shawn has also shown he can defend against power players, certainly not as well as Jermaine, but then again, Shawn can run O'Neal out of the gym.

So personally, I guess it's all a matter of perception. I don't think one has an advantage over the other, whether we're talking physically or skill-wise.

 

[carey]

In my opinion a KG + Amare team will never work.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

In my opinion a KG + Amare team will never work.

It's an opinion you alone hold....

 

[devilalum]

How about the fact that your trade completely changes the Suns from a run and gun team to a half court team?

You'd basically be throwing out the entire team. The Suns are built to run and gun. Would Nash be as effective in a half court slow down offense?

Garnett, Amare, Nash, Q, Jackson might look more talented on paper but it would be a completely different team. They'd have to bring in a defensive minded coach to really take advantage of the strengths of that team. They'd be a lot like the Duncan/Admiral Spurs and they wouldn't be nearly as much fun to watch.

I also don't see Amare playing second fiddle to Garnett and he'd probably either refuse to resign or force a trade and then the Suns would be lucky to get anything close to Marion, JJ and #1 for him..

 

[carey]

It's an opinion you alone hold....

I doubt it. I can't be the only one that realizes you can't put two "need the ball superstars" in the front court and expect it to work. That's not to mention their respective attitudes and the fact that they already hate each other.

 

[Joe Mama]

Why? IMO, the most important thing about being a "big" is the ability to get rebounds. Shawn is at least equal to Jermaine in that respect. Talk about shot blocking. Ok, O'Neal is certainly better than Shawn, but Shawn is light years better at getting steals--2 categories that really are similar in the frequency they occur (in fact, steals might be more valuable because they might be more frequent). So there's your draw.

So the only reason O'Neal has more value is the fact that he can defend against power players. Of course, this season, Shawn has also shown he can defend against power players, certainly not as well as Jermaine, but then again, Shawn can run O'Neal out of the gym.

So personally, I guess it's all a matter of perception. I don't think one has an advantage over the other, whether we're talking physically or skill-wise.

Chap, don't be a homer.

We've been over this before discussing Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson. Even more than JJ, Shawn Marion is a complementary player. That's not to discount his contributions to the team. He's one of the best complementary players in the NBA. He's not a number one option though. That's what Jermaine O'Neal is.

He's also a legitimate power forward/center. Shawn Marion has done OK as a power forward. Let's not forget that he consistently requires help from the double-team because he is undersized at that position. Hell, he frequently needed double-team help against small forwards. Forget the statistics on blocks and steals. This team would be light years better on defense with Jermaine O'Neal instead of Shawn Marion.

You can argue until you are blue in the face that Shawn Marion has as much value as Jermaine O'Neal. It isn't going to make it true. Everyone of us knows that O'Neal would fetch much, much more in a trade.

I doubt it. I can't be the only one that realizes you can't put two "need the ball superstars" in the front court and expect it to work. That's not to mention their respective attitudes and the fact that they already hate each other.

Again, the Timberwolves are not going to trade Kevin Garnett any time soon. This is all fantasy talk. That said, I think KG and Amare Stoudemire would operate just find together on the basketball court. KG has never been a player who needs to score. In fact one of the biggest knocks on him was that he couldn't/wouldn't put the team on his back and carry the offensive load in big games. I think those two could work very well together. We just won't get a chance to find out... at least not anytime soon.

Joe Mama

 

[F-Dog]

Garnett isn't going anywhere. They'll blow up the rest of the team first--Cassell and Sprewell will both be gone next year, for one thing.

To me, this looks like the first step towards dumping McHale, who hasn't accomplished much besides drafting and developing KG. GMs who become coaches usually wind up losing both jobs.

It's hard to believe that McHale will actually turn things around. I don't see how he has any more authority than Flip Saunders in the minds of the teams' malingerers.

 

[Chaplin]

Chap, don't be a homer.

We've been over this before discussing Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson. Even more than JJ, Shawn Marion is a complementary player. That's not to discount his contributions to the team. He's one of the best complementary players in the NBA. He's not a number one option though. That's what Jermaine O'Neal is.

Joe Mama

I never said Shawn was BETTER than Jermaine...

Seriously, though, I know how bad it is to go by stats only, but come on, if you call Shawn complimentary with the statistics he puts up, then he is easily the best "complimentary" player in the NBA. Let's be serious for a minute. The only reasons you don't call him a number one option is because a) we have a couple guys named Nash and Amare on the team, and b) when he WAS the number one option, he was merely a rookie and 2nd year player--which says a lot about the quality of our team when Kidd was here.

That said, I think that O'Neal probably would fetch more in a trade, but not because he is a better player--it's because the old cliche of "the most underrated player" in the NBA is more true now in regards to Shawn then ever.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Seriously, though, I know how bad it is to go by stats only, but come on, if you call Shawn complimentary with the statistics he puts up, then he is easily the best "complimentary" player in the NBA.

but that's really all he is. On both offense and defense, O'Neal has so much more value than Shawn. An offense can revolve around O'Neal because team have to double him and on defense, his size, speed, shotblocking all make him much more of a presence than Shawn.

There's nothing wrong with being the best "complimentary" player in the NBA - to me, that's a great distinction, but a distinction that Marion has never shown to be able to rise above - at least not on a contending team and realy, if you're anumber one option on a team that sucks - I think that says more about what kind of number one you are.

 

[Chaplin]

but that's really all he is. On both offense and defense, O'Neal has so much more value than Shawn. An offense can revolve around O'Neal because team have to double him and on defense, his size, speed, shotblocking all make him much more of a presence than Shawn.

There's nothing wrong with being the best "complimentary" player in the NBA - to me, that's a great distinction, but a distinction that Marion has never shown to be able to rise above - at least not on a contending team and realy, if you're anumber one option on a team that sucks - I think that says more about what kind of number one you are.

I guess we just disagree, I think in the right situation, Shawn can be a #1. As it stands, he isn't, and Jermaine O'Neal is. But I don't think that makes O'Neal a better player.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I guess we just disagree, I think in the right situation, Shawn can be a #1. As it stands, he isn't, and Jermaine O'Neal is. But I don't think that makes O'Neal a better player.

okay - personally, I think Shawn got his chance to be a number one(last year after the Marbury trade) and in his third season or fourth season with that horrible Mario Elie team and failed(most notably in the playoffs) - but it's not worth arguing about.

But let me ask you - do you think Shawn is a guy that can demand double-teams or take it to the hole and create his own shot at will or create shots for others? Those are the two things I think a #1 needs to have and I've never seen either one from him - that's where the bulk of my argument lies. Personally, I think Shawn is GREAT and the PERFECT player to be what he is right now.

Chap - we said we'd try this last season(and never actually did) - but what do you think of trying to get the LA ASFN crew together sometime over the course of the season to catch a game - I think it would be hilarious.

 

[Chaplin]

okay - personally, I think Shawn got his chance to be a number one(last year after the Marbury trade) and in his third season or fourth season with that horrible Mario Elie team and failed(most notably in the playoffs) - but it's not worth arguing about.

But let me ask you - do you think Shawn is a guy that can demand double-teams or take it to the hole and create his own shot at will or create shots for others? Those are the two things I think a #1 needs to have and I've never seen either one from him - that's where the bulk of my argument lies. Personally, I think Shawn is GREAT and the PERFECT player to be what he is right now.

We're in kind of a Catch-22--we may never know about Shawn because now, he's suddenly a 3rd option--probably the best 3rd option in the league, but still just a 3rd option. If we didn't have Nash or Amare, would Shawn be doubled down low? I don't know, but I think it's certainly a possibility. But, in all fairness, this is probably one of those debates that doesn't have much redeeming value, seeing as we all still agree he's a great player.

Chap - we said we'd try this last season(and never actually did) - but what do you think of trying to get the LA ASFN crew together sometime over the course of the season to catch a game - I think it would be hilarious.

Man, I've been trying to do that for years, even before it was ASFN, back when it was AZPro and even Rivals--but nothing ever materialized (although, I did have coffee once with Se7en when he lived in SoCal). I'm down if you can get something together.