Sendek threw his name in to the running for the UVA job before Bennett got it?

[HooverDam]

^I'm not jumping down your throat, Im just stating that you seem to be holding a very strong opinion based on third and fourth hand information and on things we don't necessarily know to be true.

If Herb strings together a bunch of 20 win seasons at ASU, takes them to a bunch of tourneys in the row, takes them to a few Sweet 16s or an Elite 8 or two, and a higher profile job opens up (back East or otherwise) would Herb leave? Maybe. But projecting whats going to happen years down the road, based on what could best be qualified as non information seems a bit silly to me.

Herb stayed at NC State for 10 years and built a program, I don't think there's much to suggest he wouldn't do the same here. If Herb strings together 5 consecutive NCAA tourneys, or wins 20 games 5 of 7 years here, like he did at NC State, he'll be treated like a God, likely further dissuading him from leaving. Its not like ASU ever had a strong basketball tradition, this is a school who's court is named for a guy who never won a major conference championship, never got the Final Four, and had a slighter lesser winning percentage at ASU than Herb currently does for his career.

 

[Ryanwb]

Let me revise my single statement that Herb is an "East coast guy", he's just not a Pac-10 guy.

 

[Gaddabout]

Herb stayed at NC State for 10 years and built a program, I don't think there's much to suggest he wouldn't do the same here. If Herb strings together 5 consecutive NCAA tourneys, or wins 20 games 5 of 7 years here, like he did at NC State, he'll be treated like a God, likely further dissuading him from leaving. Its not like ASU ever had a strong basketball tradition, this is a school who's court is named for a guy who never won a major conference championship, never got the Final Four, and had a slighter lesser winning percentage at ASU than Herb currently does for his career.

If Sendek changes the culture of ASU basketball to the point where he's a household name in the Valley, then he will have done something not even Ned Wulk could do. Honestly? I just don't see that happening. Even when ASU packs the arena, the crowds are listless and barely seem to recognize what's going on down on the floor. It's just an awful, awful basketball scene in Tempe. No fault to ASU or administration. They've done their best with meager resources and a very thin booster list. This just has never been a big college basketball town. For Sendek to change that would require some powerful Kool-Aid, IMO. Winning a few Pac-10 games alone isn't going to change that. He would have to do something he's never done before -- get beyond the second round, more than once.

And that's where I think the big hole in your argument is.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

If Herb strings together a bunch of 20 win seasons at ASU, takes them to a bunch of tourneys in the row, takes them to a few Sweet 16s or an Elite 8 or two, and a higher profile job opens up (back East or otherwise) would Herb leave? Maybe. But projecting whats going to happen years down the road, based on what could best be qualified as non information seems a bit silly to me.

And there's the catch - Herb has never accomplished that type of success even at a school with a significantly higher ceiling in NC State.

Herb stayed at NC State for 10 years and built a program, I don't think there's much to suggest he wouldn't do the same here. If Herb strings together 5 consecutive NCAA tourneys, or wins 20 games 5 of 7 years here, like he did at NC State, he'll be treated like a God, likely further dissuading him from leaving. Its not like ASU ever had a strong basketball tradition, this is a school who's court is named for a guy who never won a major conference championship, never got the Final Four, and had a slighter lesser winning percentage at ASU than Herb currently does for his career.

Nah, he'd be like Dick Tomey was at Arizona. A coach every fan likes and respects but one that we wonder will ever take us to the next level. Being only "competitive" just isn't enough over the course of many years even at a program like ASU Basketball.

 

[HooverDam]

^When Wulk was here, ASU wasn't the 50K student monster that it is today. The Valley, and ASU in particular, are always up for a good party. If ASU is winning consistently like NC State was and they can market ASU hoops as the 'place to be' I could see ASU hoops becoming pretty popular. The second half of that equation though isn't all on Herb. The renovations upcoming for WFA have to be well thought out and really improve the intimacy of the building, they need some more interesting out of conference games and Herb probably needs to go after more athlete types and fade out the Princeton influenced plodding system.

We've seen he's willing to change depending on what sort of players he has already (ie going to the Zone after years of man), and this year we saw the offense be a bit more uptempo and interesting since he had Harden and Pendergraph. With athletic slasher type guys like Walker & Lockett coming in, maybe that trend will continue.

 

[Ryanwb]

I can sort of agree with HooverDam on this one. I was at ASU during the undefeated Rose Bowl year and the school was buzzing and crazy for that squad. The players were household names, even my mom knew who Juan Roque was.

However, is ASU more of a football school than a baseketball school?

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

^When Wulk was here, ASU wasn't the 50K student monster that it is today. The Valley, and ASU in particular, are always up for a good party. If ASU is winning consistently like NC State was and they can market ASU hoops as the 'place to be' I could see ASU hoops becoming pretty popular. The second half of that equation though isn't all on Herb. The renovations upcoming for WFA have to be well thought out and really improve the intimacy of the building, they need some more interesting out of conference games and Herb probably needs to go after more athlete types and fade out the Princeton influenced plodding system.

You can't market a product like Herb's at NC State as the place to be in a sports market like ASU and Phoenix. Product is too boring and there isn't enough success. Of course if ASU becomes a preseason top 10 team and Final Four contender that's one thing but ASU doesn't seem to be recruiting well enough to get that done.

We've seen he's willing to change depending on what sort of players he has already (ie going to the Zone after years of man), and this year we saw the offense be a bit more uptempo and interesting since he had Harden and Pendergraph. With athletic slasher type guys like Walker & Lockett coming in, maybe that trend will continue.

ASU's adjusted tempo this year was 333rd out of of the 344 Division I basketball teams. It was actually faster in 2008 and 2007 by slight margins. The 'weave and heave' will be in Tempe as long as Herb is.

 

[HooverDam]

ASU's adjusted tempo this year was 333rd out of of the 344 Division I basketball teams. It was actually faster in 2008 and 2007 by slight margins. The 'weave and heave' will be in Tempe as long as Herb is.

It may have statistically been a bit slower, but there certainly seemed to be more fast breaks, alley oops, etc. and thats whats really important. I think we'll see Herb adjust to what sort of players he brings in. When you've got to play unathletic guys like Shipp, Glasser and Kuksiks big minutes, of course you're not going to be Phi Slamma Jamma. But if the program becomes primarily made up of the Walkers, Lockets and Hardens of the world, there's reason to think it'll be a more explosive product (though I don't ever expect to be like D'Antoni or Cotton Fitzsimmons style).

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

It may have statistically been a bit slower, but there certainly seemed to be more fast breaks, alley oops, etc. and thats whats really important.

There's zero evidence to back that up.

I think we'll see Herb adjust to what sort of players he brings in. When you've got to play unathletic guys like Shipp, Glasser and Kuksiks big minutes, of course you're not going to be Phi Slamma Jamma. But if the program becomes primarily made up of the Walkers, Lockets and Hardens of the world, there's reason to think it'll be a more explosive product (though I don't ever expect to be like D'Antoni or Cotton Fitzsimmons style).

Doubtful, in Herb's last three years at NC State his teams were ranked 209, 292, and 297 in the NCAA in adjusted tempo. Coaches recruit players for many years based on them fitting to a certain style of play especially on the offensive end. I'm not expecting Sean Miller to change his mid-paced style because he's going to get better athletes at Arizona.

 

[HooverDam]

There's zero evidence to back that up.

Well as I watched nearly every second of ASU basketball this year I disagree. They used much less of a Princeton-ish style and had a lot more one on one, iso type plays, using Harden more. The overall pace may not have been faster, but it wasn't the 'weave and heave' like it was in Herbs first year here.

 

[Gaddabout]

Herb probably needs to go after more athlete types and fade out the Princeton influenced plodding system.

Sendek is who he is. He'll flex some, but he'll never become something else. I can see him going through a change like Olson did in the late 80s when he got tired of watching his slow-footed guards get embarrassed in the tournament. Olson started recruiting guards who dominated the ball and generated offense without needing sets to do so. Right now, Sendek recruits 1s who distribute and play defense. It's a handicap, IMO, because you simply have to get your money's worth from your point guards in the college game.

But change his system? That's just not going to happen. Please don't hold your breath. You're likely to do brain damage waiting on Sendek to adapt to the West Coast basketball culture.

 

[HooverDam]

Herb entirely changed his defensive system, so its hard to say he's married to particular systems. I dont expect him to completely change his offense, but if you're starting a backcourt/wing combo of say Josiah Turner-Trent Lockett-Demetrius Walker, its hard to imagine you'll be too plodding.

He's got Josiah Turner coming in who sounds highly athletic, but like you mentioned more of a distributor than a ball dominator.

 

[Gaddabout]

Well as I watched nearly every second of ASU basketball this year I disagree. They used much less of a Princeton-ish style and had a lot more one on one, iso type plays, using Harden more. The overall pace may not have been faster, but it wasn't the 'weave and heave' like it was in Herbs first year here.

That's because ASU had something that Sendek doesn't recruit -- a low-post scoring presence in Pendergraph. With Pendy graduating, look for MORE sets, more movement without the ball, more backdoor, more high-post screens. They also preferred Harden as the distributor, but it didn't always work well. They're just not that good at it.

ASU was a near catastrophe on offense against decent man teams BECAUSE they didn't have anyone who could dominate one-on-one. Harden did most of his damage this year in the big games against zone teams. He was most exposed in one-on-one situations. Just watch the second half of the USC game in the Pac-10 tourney as prime example of how ASU fell apart when they didn't run sets.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I personally don't think Demetrius Walker is going to be very good.

 

[Gaddabout]

Herb entirely changed his defensive system, so its hard to say he's married to particular systems. I dont expect him to completely change his offense, but if you're starting a backcourt/wing combo of say Josiah Turner-Trent Lockett-Demetrius Walker, its hard to imagine you'll be too plodding.

He's got Josiah Turner coming in who sounds highly athletic, but like you mentioned more of a distributor than a ball dominator.

Sendek is an offense guy. It defines him. He's all about spreading the floor, spacing, and movement. His half-court scheme is not all that different from Mike D'Antoni's, ironically, and they're cut from the same cloth when it comes to being stubborn about their philosophy. It just requires a very unique player to fit the system, because the offense is constantly adjusting to the defense. Players have to able to adjust by feel of the game, make plays by feel, and instinctively do it on the fly. When you have five players who can do it well (and knock down wide-open shots), it's almost unstoppable. When you have one player who's constantly mucking it up, the whole system breaks down. It's why D'Antoni and Sendek both go with a short bench most of the time.

Defenses change with personnel. You have to, because front lines are always in a state of flux. I would anticipate ASU mixing up their man and zones even more next year without Pendy. Sendek is not recruiting players for a specific defense. He IS recruiting players to run his offense.

 

[Gaddabout]

However, is ASU more of a football school than a baseketball school?

Undoubtedly. Just follow the money. I've been associated with boosters for 20 years, and the basketball group ... let's just say they're a lonely bunch.

 

[Gaddabout]

I personally don't think Demetrius Walker is going to be very good.

It always comes down to developing a jump shot for guys like that, doesn't it? In most cases they don't make significant contributions until their senior year, and rarely do they develop range beyond 16 feet.

If he does develop a J, he has the handles to get himself open. It's just a big IF and the primary reason he's going to ASU and not some place else. My experience suggests you should never take guys that don't at least have strong shooting fundamentals in place (i.e. McMillan, who at least doesn't look handicapped when he shoots). Guys like Walker have to be broken down to bare essentials, and unless they are uncommonly hard workers, it's just another doomed recruiting risk.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Old for his class, poor fundamentals, showed limited improvement both physically and with his game over the last few years. Guys like that rarely work out, see Fendi Onobun or Mustafa Shakur as two prime examples.

Of course, he could step on campus and prove me wrong.

 

[Gaddabout]

see Fendi Onobun or Mustafa Shakur as two prime examples.

Of course, he could step on campus and prove me wrong.

Or pretty much every guard Rob Evans ever recruited. You want to recruit athletes who can run at the highest level, but you can never sacrifice basketball savvy and skill. Give me another Derek Glasser before guys like this. Glasser is a basketball player if not a superior athlete.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I was very surprised how Glasser has matured into a good basketball player after watching him his freshman year. He'll never be a good defender because he has no foot speed to stay in front of guys like Jonny Flynn but he's obviously worked on his J and has become strong enough to get past most defenders on the perimeter.

 

[Gaddabout]

I was very surprised how Glasser has matured into a good basketball player after watching him his freshman year. He'll never be a good defender because he has no foot speed to stay in front of guys like Jonny Flynn but he's obviously worked on his J and has become strong enough to get past most defenders on the perimeter.

Glasser looks like he could play for Coach K these days.

 

[Diamondback Jay]

You mean that rumor which turned out to be patently untrue? If I started making up rumors about you, it wouldn't make them true.

I get where your going with this, but it's not exactly like I pulled the rumor off a bathroom wall somewhere. Seth Davis is usually good in NOT reporting unsubstantiated rumors.

I don't want to see Herb go anywhere either. The job he has done at ASU has been top notch and I think if he sticks around, he's going to build something consistently good in Tempe. That being said, the fact that he was sniffing around the Virginia job is a bit concerning to me.

 

[HooverDam]

, the fact that he was sniffing around the Virginia job is a bit concerning to me.

Ahhhhhh. This is driving me up the freakin' wall. "The fact"? Based on what? One guy at ESPN saying so? Haller knows the program much better than Seth freakin' Davis and said it was an incorrect rumor based on 3 sources at ASU.

 

[chickenhead]

^When Wulk was here, ASU wasn't the 50K student monster that it is today. The Valley, and ASU in particular, are always up for a good party. If ASU is winning consistently like NC State was and they can market ASU hoops as the 'place to be' I could see ASU hoops becoming pretty popular. The second half of that equation though isn't all on Herb. The renovations upcoming for WFA have to be well thought out and really improve the intimacy of the building, they need some more interesting out of conference games and Herb probably needs to go after more athlete types and fade out the Princeton influenced plodding system.

Couldn't agree more on the building. The fact that it's been called either by a generic term ("Activity Center") or corporate sponsor is emblematic of its lack of presence. It's not particularly old; it's not particularly new. It's not intimidating because it's too big and the student section is misplaced. In short, it's not a difference-maker when a recruit is touring the Pac-10, whereas Pauley and McHale are (even though Arizona should prioritize its student seating more as well). Sun Devil Stadium is a difference maker. Even though it's a bit too big now that the market is so saturated, the field is still one of if not the best in the country.

It's not a good sign when the publicity around players like Diogu and Harden has always been why they attended Arizona State when they could have gone to different (read: better) programs. As long as Sendek stays I think ASU will be competitive in the conference, but if it wants to be at the next level, it has to look like the next level.