Shawn vs Amare

[silverstyne]

I don't think short-sighted would be the term to use. Don't get me wrong I love my suns and have been following them for all my life and I love all suns players, its just that theres a thing called salary cap. All of us know that the salary of this team is going to ballooon after this year, when Amare's new contract kicks in, that wouldn't still preclude resigning Boris and LB. Unless Sarver has a change of heart and goes for luxury tax territory, most probably Marion will be traded as evidenced by media articles even in the MIDST of the playoffs. Well, there is a bit of a problem, I do not like to trade Shawn because I said he fits D'Antoni's offensive schemes better (than Amare).

Haven't you watched this year's suns compared with last year's? This year's suns rotate the ball and has balanced scoring. STAT will demand the ball, that one you can count. That is why people were very worried about chemistry issues during Amare's short comeback. Nash even has to prop up Marion in his interview after the first game. So in effect if forced to choose, who would you trade? It might not happen, but it doesn't hurt to talk while eagerly for Game 5.

Oh yeah, to answer your question, I wouldn't trade Nash for Lebron. Nash is THE SUN and D'Antoni's playbook rolled into one.

 

[George O'Brien]

I don't think short-sighted would be the term to use. Don't get me wrong I love my suns and have been following them for all my life and I love all suns players, its just that theres a thing called salary cap. All of us know that the salary of this team is going to ballooon after this year, when Amare's new contract kicks in, that wouldn't still preclude resigning Boris and LB. Unless Sarver has a change of heart and goes for luxury tax territory, most probably Marion will be traded as evidenced by media articles even in the MIDST of the playoffs. Well, there is a bit of a problem, I do not like to trade Shawn because I said he fits D'Antoni's offensive schemes better (than Amare).

Haven't you watched this year's suns compared with last year's? This year's suns rotate the ball and has balanced scoring. STAT will demand the ball, that one you can count. That is why people were very worried about chemistry issues during Amare's short comeback. Nash even has to prop up Marion in his interview after the first game. So in effect if forced to choose, who would you trade? It might not happen, but it doesn't hurt to talk while eagerly for Game 5.

Oh yeah, to answer your question, I wouldn't trade Nash for Lebron. Nash is THE SUN and D'Antoni's playbook rolled into one.

If healthy, Amare is the most dominant low post player in the NBA. More than Shaq, more than Brand, and more than Duncan. Last season the Spurs tried to defend him with only one person and he put up several 40 point games. The result is that almost every team has to double him, which means someone is ALWAYS open.

Last season the Suns had two starters in JJ and Q who NEVER passed him the ball. This is a vastly better team at passing and I strongly believe he will buy into that. But even if he didn't, he was still the best finisher in the NBA.

 

[BOLDIN]

"I've seen the future of the NBA and his name is Amaré Stoudemire." ~ Lakers center Shaquille O'Neal

what is this quote...

Amare in a heartbeat. I would trade Marion for a second round pick. He is the only one missing layups and not getting assists. He is only going to get older...

 

[cly2tw]

Haven't you watched this year's suns compared with last year's? This year's suns rotate the ball and has balanced scoring. STAT will demand the ball, that one you can count. That is why people were very worried about chemistry issues during Amare's short comeback. Nash even has to prop up Marion in his interview after the first game.

This is evidence for your myopic perspective. Basketball is about getting a high percentage shot whichever way you could. On this year's Suns, we don't have a dominant scorer like Amare or Brand, whose shots are most automatically high-% ones depending on the defense. A shot counts as a high-% one if the shooter has sufficient, safe distance to his defender when firing the shot. So, rotating the ball is a virtue out of necessity to create high-% shots. The unique strength of our team is that we achieve that without having a high-profile one-on-one scorer. So, with Amare in, we will be even more unstoppable or having more higher % shots than this year.

You and most media reporters only seem to capture the superfluous signs of our system but are unaware of the essence of basketball and the mechanism/reason why we play this way. Hey, Spurs and Clippers have dominant scorers like Brand and TD, they are not bad teams if not actually better teams than us. If we hypothetically play another 7-game series right now vs. the Clippers, I'm not sure we'd win it.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I would trade Marion for a second round pick. He is the only one missing layups and not getting assists. He is only going to get older...

............

 

[Nash]

nobody is untradeable. nash for bron? done and done.

NO WAY! Nash is untradeable.
I'd take Nash anyday over bron. bron is too full of himself. cant stand him. esp compared to a great guy like Nash.

 

[gdiddy]

Have you never seen him play?

Yes I have. And he does NOT possess the same qualities as our MVP.

NO WAY! Nash is untradeable.
I'd take Nash anyday over bron. bron is too full of himself. cant stand him. esp compared to a great guy like Nash.

Exactly my thoughts. I know the whole thing is bull to begin with (Nash for Lebron), but why someone would think to do that when Nash was the one who propelled us past two game 7s, and into the WCF finals is beyond me.

LeBron is a celebrity and he's in love with himself. It's not about his team winning, it's about HIM winning.

The Suns roster doesn't need people like that. Not even the MVP cares for the limelight because it all comes down to a team effort, not one person.

 

[jandaman]

You guys are assuming Amare will come back 100%.

What if he isnt?.. and the Suns traded Marion.

The run and gun offense is will not be as good without that high flyer.

dont get me wrong I know how good Amare is, but he might not come back the same.

 

[Joe Mama]

If healthy, Amare is the most dominant low post player in the NBA. More than Shaq, more than Brand, and more than Duncan. Last season the Spurs tried to defend him with only one person and he put up several 40 point games. The result is that almost every team has to double him, which means someone is ALWAYS open.

Last season the Suns had two starters in JJ and Q who NEVER passed him the ball. This is a vastly better team at passing and I strongly believe he will buy into that. But even if he didn't, he was still the best finisher in the NBA.

I'm sorry, but Amare Stoudemire was not the most dominant low post player in the NBA last year. I'll give you "the most dominant frontcourt scorer". However there are two ends of the court, and he played some pathetic defense last year. I know some of this was by design since the Suns had no depth behind him in case of foul trouble. Still, he was just lost on defense much of the time.

That said, I can't wait to see what a healthy Amare Stoudemire can do with THIS team. This includes Kurt Thomas.

"I've seen the future of the NBA and his name is Amaré Stoudemire." ~ Lakers center Shaquille O'Neal

what is this quote...

Amare in a heartbeat. I would trade Marion for a second round pick. He is the only one missing layups and not getting assists. He is only going to get older...

I love that quote, but let's face it. Shaq would not have said it this season. If Amare never had surgery on his knees we would never have a thread like this. The question is how confident are we that Amare will come back from these surgeries and be a dominant player? I really hope he does, but I have to admit that I'm not exactly confident that he will. At the very least I could see him missing more significant time over the life of his maximum contract.

That is why this thread isn't stupid. That is why the people discussing the ideas in this thread aren't losers. These are legitimate questions.

The Phoenix Suns payroll next season will be $59 million before they re-sign Tim Thomas and draft picks. If they don't move someone this summer they will have to do it next summer before Boris' and possibly Barbosa's extensions kick in.

I guess the other hope is that Sarver is willing to pay some luxury tax money this next year because he realizes he has a great shot at a championship or repeat? Maybe he'll do it the following year?

Joe

 

[Cheesebeef]

Anyone who's take a 32 year-old Nash over a 6'8 Hyrbid of Magic Johnson/Michael Jordan, who's only 21 is insane - period.

And where is this notion of Bron being in love with himself coming from? Or that cares only about him? Sure looked that way while he was dishing 7 + assists a game in the playoffs and taking a pretty weak Cleveland team tot he brink of knokcing off the best team in the NBA this year.

Seriously - smoking crack is BAD for you.

Lebron will win a minimum of 4 titles in his career - do you guys not realize he's still like 7 YEARS away from his prime? Sheesh - he's a freaking monster.

 

[nowagimp]

I'm sorry, but Amare Stoudemire was not the most dominant low post player in the NBA last year. I'll give you "the most dominant frontcourt scorer". However there are two ends of the court, and he played some pathetic defense last year. I know some of this was by design since the Suns had no depth behind him in case of foul trouble. Still, he was just lost on defense much of the time.

That said, I can't wait to see what a healthy Amare Stoudemire can do with THIS team. This includes Kurt Thomas.



I love that quote, but let's face it. Shaq would not have said it this season. If Amare never had surgery on his knees we would never have a thread like this. The question is how confident are we that Amare will come back from these surgeries and be a dominant player? I really hope he does, but I have to admit that I'm not exactly confident that he will. At the very least I could see him missing more significant time over the life of his maximum contract.

That is why this thread isn't stupid. That is why the people discussing the ideas in this thread aren't losers. These are legitimate questions.

The Phoenix Suns payroll next season will be $59 million before they re-sign Tim Thomas and draft picks. If they don't move someone this summer they will have to do it next summer before Boris' and possibly Barbosa's extensions kick in.

I guess the other hope is that Sarver is willing to pay some luxury tax money this next year because he realizes he has a great shot at a championship or repeat? Maybe he'll do it the following year?

Joe

Everyone has made some good points, with most of them just pointing out that the team as it currently exists is not easy to evaluate because of uncertainty surrounding Amare's injury. This is why the team should be kept intact for next year. Trade marion and you lose speed and defense against 1's 2's and 3's. Marion may be the fastest swing player in the NBA, and along with Leo creates the speed necessary to burn the bigger, slower teams(all other teams in the NBA). TT is really coming along, but he's still not as familiar with the other players as he will be next year come playoff time. If the suns win a championship next year, almost all players will increase in trade value. What does it hurt to wait one year? Does anyone really believe that the these suns with an 85% Amare and KT cannot win a championship next year. These guys have played together in the crucible of the playoffs. Amare will be the new piece next year. Adding too many new pieces will require that those pieces learn to play with the existing pieces. There is a value to keeping a team together, especially the main pieces: see spurs, pistons. PPG and RPG and ASST stats dont tell the whole story about how well players play together. Adding major new pieces may take 1 year of playoffs to really learn the players and the system. A big trade may DELAY a championship 1 year while the pieces learn to play together, and Nash is 32!!! In my opinion, no delays are really acceptable now.

 

[tobiazz]

 

[tobiazz]

You would have to trade Nash for Bron or even Wade in a heartbeat. Why do people write that Lebron is in love with himself. He isn't Kobe, but if anyone can point me to some evidence, go for it.

 

[Nasser22]

I agree with tobiazz and cheesebeef. I wouldn't trade Nash for Wade but if given the opportunity to trade for Lebron I'd definetly do it. He'll be the best player in the league in a year or two. He's an amazing player. He is not in love with him self and cares a lot about his team. If he was like Kobe he could score 40 ppg, but he gets assists also...

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'd trade Nash for Wade also - assuming Amare was healthy, we'd not only be contenders next year, but NO ONE would beat us for the next decade. With Nash we've got 3 good years MAX and then who knows. Wade and Amare would be the next Shaq/Kobe - but with a better supporting cast - they would freaking KILL everyone.

That being said, I don't think that's going to happen any time soon!

 

[Chaplin]

Yeah, outside of Lebron James or maybe Kobe Bryant, if Wade is available, you trade anyone, including Steve Nash.

 

[gdiddy]

No offense, but this team would not be where it is today without Steve Nash. This forum would be quiet during the post season had Nash stayed in Dallas. To simply ponder the thought of trading Nash for James is absurd. Yeah James is a lot younger, but he simply cannot fit into the selfless yet productive offense of the Phoenix Suns. There is a reason Nash is the league leader in assists. There is a reason that he has propelled has teamates into career-high seasons, and even remarkable post-season performances. There is a reason that he is the MVP--2 years in a row.

Bringing LeBron along side of Steve is one thing. Bringing him in place of Steve is another.

If Amare returns healthy, I could care less for any other superstar in this league, because frankly STAT will overshadow them all.

 

[Joe Mama]

No offense, but this team would not be where it is today without Steve Nash. This forum would be quiet during the post season had Nash stayed in Dallas. To simply ponder the thought of trading Nash for James is absurd. Yeah James is a lot younger, but he simply cannot fit into the selfless yet productive offense of the Phoenix Suns. There is a reason Nash is the league leader in assists. There is a reason that he has propelled has teamates into career-high seasons, and even remarkable post-season performances. There is a reason that he is the MVP--2 years in a row.

Bringing LeBron along side of Steve is one thing. Bringing him in place of Steve is another.

If Amare returns healthy, I could care less for any other superstar in this league, because frankly STAT will overshadow them all.

Again, a the fact that this thread has been hijacked, but I just can't let this go. I love Steve Nash. He's been incredible for the Phoenix Suns, and he deserved to be MVP of the league the last two years. HOWEVER, the beauty of the Mike D'Antoni system is such that if you put a great player like a LeBron James or Dwayne Wade into the system in place of Nash this team would still score 105-110 points per game. Defensively they would probably be a little bit better.

These two guys are amazing, young players. They can both distribute the ball very well as well as get points for themselves.

Of course I'm really not even sure why we are discussing this since Steve Nash is not owing to be traded, and neither Cleveland nor Miami would think about giving their respective superstars to the Phoenix Suns for him. So, the reason I wanted to keep this thread open is because I thought the original post brought up a very real and somewhat scary problem facing this team.

Will Sarver paid to keep all of this team's current players while also extending Boris and possibly Leandro? What about Tim Thomas?

Joe

 

[elindholm]

I believe Marion will be traded this summer. He's becoming less and less emphasized in the team's plans. I know that one of the things that's supposed to be so great about him is that "you don't have to run any plays for him," but the Suns were virtually ignoring him on offense last night. For one stretch in the second quarter, Avery Johnson put Stackhouse on Marion -- which should be a joke -- because he realized that the Suns simply weren't interested in going to him.

Marion did well in the broken plays, finished better than usual on the fast break, and even converted a couple of times one-on-one in the post. I think he played well. But Diaw, Thomas, Bell (when healthy), and even Barbosa all seem to be higher in the "offensive depth chart" these days, and of course there is the minor matter of Stoudemire returning next year. Since D'Antoni is not only the coach but also the GM, I think he's made up his mind.

If Marion is traded, there are three options.

1. Trade for another star with a big salary, for example Garnett in the scenario that some on this board keep pimping. I think that something like this could probably work, but I don't think it's the direction the Suns want to go. They seem to be concerned with flexibility in terms of both payroll and personnel, and trading Marion for another large contract (or even a larger one) wouldn't help with that.

2. Trade him for expiring contracts and prospects, for instance Jalen Rose and Channing Frye. (I'm not suggesting that that would be a particularly good trade for either side.) I don't see the Suns going this route unless they are prepared to waive the big expiring contract outright. Otherwise, I think that the big-name player, knowing he isn't part of the team's future, could cause a major distraction in a year when the Suns are supposed to be pursuing a title.

3. Trade him to a team with cap space for a miscellanous collection of propsects and/or picks. I suppose this is the most likely. Then the question is, which team with space is in a position to consider Marion a positive asset? The Bulls and Raptors have been rumored, and the Hawks are possible as well, if they aren't sold on Josh Smith and Marvin Williams as their forward tandem of the future and think Marion could play alongside either of them.

Scenario #3 permits the Suns to keep Tim Thomas if they wish; the others really don't, because they can't fit him under the luxury tax line. So I think what happens with Marion this summer will depend a lot on whether the Suns want to keep Thomas.

 

[BleedRed]

I think Amare has to be untouchable. His upside is superstardom. If he comes back @ 100% he is one of the top 5 players in the league for the next ten years. As far a Nash goes...he has really disapointed me this off-season. He's far from untouchable in my book. If it wasn't for players like Diaw, Bell, and Thomas we would've lost our first round series. Nash has not played well @ all. He's had a couple of good games, but has not played like and MVP.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I think Amare has to be untouchable. His upside is superstardom. If he comes back @ 100% he is one of the top 5 players in the league for the next ten years. As far a Nash goes...he has really disapointed me this off-season. He's far from untouchable in my book. If it wasn't for players like Diaw, Bell, and Thomas we would've lost our first round series. Nash has not played well @ all. He's had a couple of good games, but has not played like and MVP.

I am glad to see this thread open again.


Let me get this straight. Amare is untouchable, knee injury and all, but the 2 time MVP is far from being untouchable? Please help me explain that logic.

I am assuming you meant postseason, and not offseason.

 

[Joe Mama]

Steve Nash is getting worn into the ground because the Phoenix Suns have no depth at guard, especially now with Bell injured. He's averaging 40 minutes per game, and that is just too much given that games are every other day and he has to be so active without Amare.

I guess I would understand if they had to trade Shawn Marion, but I do think it would be a public relations nightmare unless they got something great in return. I think they will be fine once they got to the regular season and played well, but it would make losing JJ look like nothing.

Joe Mama

 

[frdbtr]

Phoenix needs to keep this team together, the ENTIRE team. If Amare and Kurt thomas were playing we would have swept out way to the finals. I don't think that either Detroit or the Heat could possibly keep up with the speed of the team with those two in the starting line up. That team can play small, it can play big. It would have the ability to run anyone off of the court and yet play half court if needed. Sarver needs to buck it up and pay the team, if they win championships (which I think would definately happen) then they would still be profitable.

 

[Mainstreet]

b
I agree this is an incredibly short sighted post and for those who even kind of support it are just as short sighted.

It's these same losers who are cuaght up in the moment of this season's run that cannot look to the future and that is a healthy Amare. ANd it's these very same losers who will switch their positions back and forth with each loss. I am sure the OP will start a thread if the Suns lose game 5 and Marion plays bad that we need to trade Marion.

Chris Bosh? lol what the hell has Chris Bosh ever done?

Since you seem to dismiss Chris Bosh so readily, he is only 22 years of age and averaged PPG 22.5 | RPG 9.2 | BPG 1.1, this past season. He will also be getting a max contract offer from Toronto. Also Bosh was selected for the 2006 NBA Eastern Conference All-Star team.

See ESPN link: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3707

Also I might add, if you are going to quote me as your Signature on the ASFN discussion board get it right and in context... put the after my quote.

And I resent the use of the word "Hater" after my ASFN name: Mainstreet. I find your use of the word "Hater" in your Signature as demeaning to me and this board. In fact I find it childish. Oppose me with arguments not hate mongering.

Some people just have no class. I will stand by my comments in regard to a proposed hypothetical trade by JCSunsfan.



________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCSunsfan
Ok, just for fun, I'll bite on the idea of this thread.

Amare and KT for Bosh and the #1 pick.

_________________________________
Reply:
Originally Posted by Mainstreet

Sorry Amare fans, this would be a no brainer for me. I'd do it but I don't think Toronto would as Bosh is their Amare/ franchise player (and he is not hurt). So that would make it essentially KT for the #1 pick.

Wrap it up.

Seriously Amare probably does not have much trade value until he proves he's healthy and wants to play again... and he has that max contract. If Amare returns to form, I would still consider trading him for the right players due to the questions about his knees.

 

[BleedRed]

I am glad to see this thread open again.


Let me get this straight. Amare is untouchable, knee injury and all, but the 2 time MVP is far from being untouchable? Please help me explain that logic.

I am assuming you meant postseason, and not offseason.

Obviously I did mean post season. Thanks for the correction. And my opinion on Amare was cleary if he returns 100%. As far as Nash goes, if someone offered the house for him I'd take it in a minute, Amare on the other hand (when healthy obviously) is a talent that cannot be replaced.