Should The Suns Force Marion To Change His Shot?
- Thread starter George O'Brien
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Errnknght,
This is one area of the Phoenix Suns games where I've been in complete agreement with you for a long time. Like many NBA teams for the Phoenix Suns underutilize movement along the baseline, whether it be cuts or curls. I think Shawn Marion would be a serious problem for defenses working along the baseline. He wouldn't even have to do anything that complicated. He should stay down in that area anyways because he seems to be better at shooting the three-pointers from the corners.
I'd like to see him used in the pick and roll more often as well. It would keep him involved in the game, and he showed against Dallas in the playoffs that he can do it quite effectively.
Joe Mama
This is one area of the Phoenix Suns games where I've been in complete agreement with you for a long time. Like many NBA teams for the Phoenix Suns underutilize movement along the baseline, whether it be cuts or curls. I think Shawn Marion would be a serious problem for defenses working along the baseline. He wouldn't even have to do anything that complicated. He should stay down in that area anyways because he seems to be better at shooting the three-pointers from the corners.
I'd like to see him used in the pick and roll more often as well. It would keep him involved in the game, and he showed against Dallas in the playoffs that he can do it quite effectively.
Joe Mama
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George O'Brien
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I too get frustrated by the lack of movement off the ball by the Suns. Some of this is due to the fact that when teams react to Amare and Nash, it leaves someone open and Nash typically finds the open man. Why move if you can get open while just standing still or making minor sideways slides?
I think the answer is that this approach is too predictable. Using cutters means that guarding the Suns would be more complicated than just making rapid rotations.
Maybe the "point center" offense will include Marion as a cutter. It would certainly make sense. Get the ball to Amare at the elbow with Marion and KT on the baseline wings. If Amare's defender backs off, Amare gets the equivalent of a free throw. If he comes up, Amare will blow by the big guys and overpower the smaller guys. If help comes from KT's guy, KT gets an open jumper. If it comes from Marion's side, Shawn can drive and dunk. With three point shooters behind him, Amare simply kicks back to Nash or one of the SG's.
One thing about this point center offense is that it can be run without having to have the ball in Nash's hands.
I think the answer is that this approach is too predictable. Using cutters means that guarding the Suns would be more complicated than just making rapid rotations.
Maybe the "point center" offense will include Marion as a cutter. It would certainly make sense. Get the ball to Amare at the elbow with Marion and KT on the baseline wings. If Amare's defender backs off, Amare gets the equivalent of a free throw. If he comes up, Amare will blow by the big guys and overpower the smaller guys. If help comes from KT's guy, KT gets an open jumper. If it comes from Marion's side, Shawn can drive and dunk. With three point shooters behind him, Amare simply kicks back to Nash or one of the SG's.
One thing about this point center offense is that it can be run without having to have the ball in Nash's hands.
Chaplin
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George O'Brien said:
What is this mythical "point center offense" you keep talking about? Amare mentioned in an interview that he was going to be like a point center--we don't know how serious he was about that, and we certainly don't know if that is going to be the basis for a whole offense.
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George O'Brien
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Chaplin said:
Entirely speculation, but it was one of the first things Amare talked about following his post season meeting with D'Antoni. I suppose I'm reading too much into it, but Amare sounded awfully excited by it.
It is not easy to implement a major alteration to a team's offensive scheme in mid season. I have no doubt that D'Antoni is looking for ways to make greater use of Amare's unique skills and what I'm describing is a logical extension of some of the things they have been doing.
I know Errntknght wants the Suns to implement the Princeton offense, but I don't think that likely. The Suns don't have a classic high post distributor type center. What I've described is a setup that assumes Amare will attack the basket or take the shot more than he will distribute - but being able to distrubte makes that easier.
At this point, this is just an idea. It may turn out that D'Antoni has something else in mind and it may turn out that Amare won't have the vision to make it work. But I think it would be a very interesting wrinkle if they do run it.
Errntknght
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George, "I know Errntknght wants the Suns to implement the Princeton offense, but I don't think that likely. The Suns don't have a classic high post distributor type center."
I may have fooled you because I sometimes describe things using motion offense lingo but I've never espoused that idea - I don't favor any kind of a MO without a coach or two who have a good deal of experience with it. With D'Antoni in charge I'd like to see a smallish number of set plays - they aren't going to abandon the P&R and one wants crisp execution of the set plays they do use.
I'd like them to start some set plays from the same setup they use when they're running the pick and roll, particularly ones that take advantage of the little adjustments defenders make when they're expecting the P&R. That has a side benefit of making your P&R more effective. For example, Nash's defender will often move more in front of him because of the imminent pick - that opens up a nice passing lane for Nash right into the paint so you run a play that has a guy popping up into the paint off a down screen at that time. Or Marion could backdoor his guy then. Or if you want to post a SG you use it to make an easy entry pass - the disguise has a bonus of leaving help defenders in poor position.
If Amare's man is aggressively stepping out on the pick you can fake the P&R just to allow Amare to seal him outside. That gives two or three second where the opponents (typically) best rebounder and shot blocker is out of the action. A couple of set plays geared to that would be good - it could be as simple as Nash reversing the ball to the strongside corner for a shot.
As far as Amare in the high post goes, I did describe some of the plays they might run where he passed the ball but I don't think I ever suggested that was going to be his major contribution to the offense. Heck, the whole reason I came up the suggestion is that he is such a threat to drive or shoot is that he distorts the defense and makes it easier for teammates to get good shots and position. (George, if I'm not mistaken one of the times I went into this was in arguing against your idea of Amare operating in the low post - because that takes away his face up jumper.)
I may have fooled you because I sometimes describe things using motion offense lingo but I've never espoused that idea - I don't favor any kind of a MO without a coach or two who have a good deal of experience with it. With D'Antoni in charge I'd like to see a smallish number of set plays - they aren't going to abandon the P&R and one wants crisp execution of the set plays they do use.
I'd like them to start some set plays from the same setup they use when they're running the pick and roll, particularly ones that take advantage of the little adjustments defenders make when they're expecting the P&R. That has a side benefit of making your P&R more effective. For example, Nash's defender will often move more in front of him because of the imminent pick - that opens up a nice passing lane for Nash right into the paint so you run a play that has a guy popping up into the paint off a down screen at that time. Or Marion could backdoor his guy then. Or if you want to post a SG you use it to make an easy entry pass - the disguise has a bonus of leaving help defenders in poor position.
If Amare's man is aggressively stepping out on the pick you can fake the P&R just to allow Amare to seal him outside. That gives two or three second where the opponents (typically) best rebounder and shot blocker is out of the action. A couple of set plays geared to that would be good - it could be as simple as Nash reversing the ball to the strongside corner for a shot.
As far as Amare in the high post goes, I did describe some of the plays they might run where he passed the ball but I don't think I ever suggested that was going to be his major contribution to the offense. Heck, the whole reason I came up the suggestion is that he is such a threat to drive or shoot is that he distorts the defense and makes it easier for teammates to get good shots and position. (George, if I'm not mistaken one of the times I went into this was in arguing against your idea of Amare operating in the low post - because that takes away his face up jumper.)
