Should The Suns Implement the Princeton Offense

[George O'Brien]

For a while I been thinking it might make sense for the Suns to implement a modified verison of the Princeton offense used by the Kings It would be a radical departure for the Suns, but would solve several key problems.

Let me start with the problems the Suns have. The Suns offense is excessively dependent on Nash. This means they stagnate against good defensive teams when he's on the bench, they struggle when double teamming forces the ball out of Nash's hands, and it is a disater when he gets injured. What is worse, Nash's style ensure he will get banged up and he already has back problems.

The general consensus is that the Suns need a backup point guard, but the reviews suggest none will actually solve the Suns problem. They can't fill in for Nash because the offense is built around his unique skills.

What interests me about the Princeton offense is that it is not really point guard oriented. In 2001-02, the Kings won 61 games and took the Lakers to seven games in the WCF before losing the final two games. During that season, Mike Bibby averaged only 5 assists per game.

Instead, of relying on the point guard, everyone got into the assist act: Webber 4.8, Divac 3.7, Christy 4.2. Between Bibby and Bobby Jackson (his backup), they only got 7 assists per game but the team average 23.9.

The Princeton offense involves continual movement with lots of back screens with the high post man triggering the ball to cutters and shooters. It only works with a center who is an above average passer. In the case of the Suns, it would be Diaw.

In some ways the Suns personel resemble the 01-02 Kings:

Webber - Stoudemire: By 01-02 Webber was no longer the athletic freak he was in his early years, but his 24.5 ppg and 10.1 rpg were fairly Amaresque. Like Amare he developed a jump shot to go with his low post scoring. Amare needs to learn to pass more quickly from the double team to get Webber like assist numbers of 4.8, but the offense was built around cutters.

Divac - Diaw: Divac had only 3.1 assists that season and just 11.1 ppg, but his skill at getting the ball moved was still pretty impressive. Divac was somewhat better guarding the low post than Diaw might be, but was not nearly the threat to go to the basket.

Christy - Marion: Doug Christy averaged only 12 ppg only 46% from the field and 35.2% for three. I pair these two because Christy's role was primary defensive and as a cutter.

Stojakovic - Bell: Peja had a great year that season. We think of him as a great three ooint shooter, but that season he hit 129 of 310 attemps (41.6). Last season Bell hit 197 of 446 (44.2%). What mattered was that Peja got a lot of layups as part of that offense.

Bibby - Nash: In that Princeton offense the PG gets to play off the ball a lot. Bibby had only 5 assists, but averaged 13.7 ppg. Comparatively, Nash is a much bigger threat as a shooter than Bibby but in the Princeton offense wouldn't have to get beat up in the process.

Bobby Jackson - Leandro Barbosa: We think of Bobby Jackson as this great PG off the bench for the Kings of that era. But this season Barbosa had 2.8 asssists to Jackson's 2.0. Jackson averaged 11.1 ppg to Barbosa's 13.1 ppg. The key is that in the Princeton offense Jackson did not have to be a point guard any more than Barbosa is.

Scott Pollard - Kurt Thomas: The Kings were a lot better defensively than they are given credit for that season, holding opponents to 44.0% shooting. Pollard was a big part of that with his 7.1 rpg

Turkoglu - Tim Thomas or James Jones: Turkoglu averaged 10.1 ppg on 42.2% shooting and had 4.5 rpg.

The following season the Kings when the Kings won 59, they had somewhat better personal statistics and much better defensive statistics. They lost Webber in the playoffs and were defeated by the Mavs, but the overall impact is roughly the same. Bibby averaged 5.2 assists per game in 55 games and Bobby Jackson had 3.1 in 59 games. In spite of their injuries, the Kings averaged 24.8 assists per game and 103.4 ppg (which was very high).

In terms of personnel, the Suns are not that far different from those teams. Diaw is smaller but much quicker than Divac was. Peja got a lot more points than Raja, but it was on an offense that featured him.

If the Suns ran the Princeton offense, it would be at a much faster pace than the Kings did with Divac and Webber slowing them down. In any case, it's an offense does not rely as much on the point guard, which would mean more consistency and less wear and tear on Nash.

 

[Covert Rain]

First off, I don't think the Suns need to mimic any offense. They are aleady the number 1 offense 2 years running. Second the team already leads the league in overall assist numbers.

Yes Nash had the bulk but often in games, the assists were contagious. They don't need to fix what isn't broken. Not to mention that the Suns have already gotten further then the Kings ever have.

I really don't think adopting a college offense for the NBA works in general. The way both games are called by the refs is so different. That's why most college coaches can't make the transition. College and the NBA are just so different in terms of talent level that certain offensive or defensive sets are much more complex. That would be like an NFL team adopting a college football wishbone offense. No thanks.

The personel may have some similarities to the Kings but they are light years ahead of them already. To adopt such a system would make the team worse not better.

The team is fine in terms of offense. Add, Amare back into the mix and you already don't have to rely on Nash to dribble so much and make every play. Amare was already one of the best passing big men last year. Now add the fact that he was one of the leaders all season at getting to the free throw lline.

The offense will already dynamically change from him back in the lineup alone. Now if this thread was more about adopting a different defensive scheme that would be different.

 

[green machine]

I think having Amare and Diaw will help lessen the load on Nash along with allowing the team to still score points with him on the bench. The offense will have to be different with Nash on the bench, but instead of the drive and kick we can just dump it into the post and let the offense revolve around what happens there. As long as Amare is a willing passer (who knows, he hasn't always been the greatest) then the offense will be fine.

 

[Errntknght]

One of the drawbacks to the Princeton offense is that D'Antoni doesn't know it. For example, the notion of players setting lots of off-ball picks is completely foreign to him - and as George noted that is one the hallmarks of the Princeton offense. (Until KT arrived, Steve Nash led the team in setting off-ball picks - just to show you how infrequent they were.)

The players are well suited to running the Princeton or to running motion offenses, in general, but it's silly to attempt that kind of thing if the coach isn't well versed in it - we've had F Johnson(Pinch post MO), Ainge(MO) and Cotton(Triangle) trying, netting two disasters and one mediocre result(Ainge).

Far, far better for D'Antoni stick to what he believes in and I think that is going to work out extremely well. Boris loves to setup at the left elbow and Amare sets up at either one so he'll gravitate to the right. Either will move low if they have an advantage there. We have a plethora of long range shooters to space the floor - all they have to do is cut and slash a little. Find out what works. Its all but automatic. Normally, I hate relying on three point shooting but I think the Suns are going to have enough inside game that they'll stop shooting them unless they're wide open. I'll be surprised if they don't average close to 120 ppg.

 

[Absolute Zero]

No.

Weren't we the top scoring team in the NBA last year?

How long until the season starts, I'm getting bored with this offseason already.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

George -

You are obviously very knowledgable when it comes to Suns basketball but sometimes i wonder what the heck you are thinking with some of these threads....

Why in the world would we change anything we are doing offensively? As the previous posts have already stated we are the number one offense two years running (by a large margin).....if we have any weaknesses going into next year they surely are not on the offensive end....

Do you think the Indianapolis Colts should start running the wish bone?

Or maybe we should trade Steve Nash for Luke Ridnour.....

Or maybe we should make Iavaroni head coach and move D'Antoni permenantly upstairs.

or not....

If it ain't broke - don't fix it

 

[frdbtr]

I have absolutely no worries about the offense next year. Nash will get his bench time since Diaw will have absolutely no problems setting up Amare next year. You watch, Diaw will become the ball handler when nash goes out and the offense won't miss a beat.

 

[nowagimp]

I have absolutely no worries about the offense next year. Nash will get his bench time since Diaw will have absolutely no problems setting up Amare next year. You watch, Diaw will become the ball handler when nash goes out and the offense won't miss a beat.

The offense will be better when nash is out since the suns will have the depth up front to allow Diaw to come in off the bench and then be the primary playmaker when Nash sits down. This year that was not possible as the suns were so thin up front, especially with playmakers. Even Amare at 85-90 % will be more than enough to allow the suns to use Diaw as an all purpose 6th man. And I hear that Amare is already throwing down windmill dunks!!

 

[Covert Rain]

No.

Weren't we the top scoring team in the NBA last year?

How long until the season starts, I'm getting bored with this offseason already.

Uhh what season were you watching??? Suns were number one in scoring.

 

[Gaddabout]

First, I think y'all who are criticizing George aren't being very charitable with his primary point: Some kind of structure offense that de-emphasized the PG might mean more efficiency when Nash is out of the game. It is a problem that requires a solution, because the Suns with Nash on the bench are a big fat negative in the plus/minus.

That said, although the Princeton offense is suitable to the Suns scheme and personnel, it's only a surface relationship. The Princeton offense, even at faster paces, is philosophically distinct from D'Antoni's agenda. You can't run that offense with an agenda to shoot the ball within the first seven seconds. Furthermore, the Suns dedicated 3-point shooters -- Bell, Barbosa, Jones, and Thomas (if he's brought back) -- shot a high percentage on flat feet. They didn't have to move to get a shot off. Asking them to all of a sudden start hitting jumpers coming off screens is different and possibly deterimental to their shooting percentage.

I think the key for the Suns is to find someone who can run the break and create shots for other players. If that's an improved Barbosa, fine, although I'm very skeptical he can be that player. I would much rather inquire about acquiring someone like Brevin Knight, whose limitations are known and whose strengths would outweight those limitations.

And for whatever it's worth, Nash never wears down on offense. The number of minutes he played combined that absolute beating he took on defense in those first two playoff series is what did him in. I don't think the key is to neccesarily limit a lot of his minutes in the regular season, but with his back, he is definitely going to need someone to give him longer breathers in the second games before travel day. In some cases, I felt 30 minutes was too much for him, and his legs were completely dead by Game 4 of the WCF.

 

[Mainstreet]

George, I think your thoughts are good in theory. The Suns are better when they pass the ball.

Actually I think most of the season the Suns were really running an excellent passing game and less dependent on Nash except to set up the offense. However, when opposing teams started to key on Nash (because he started the passing game) and with a limited inside game, the offense began to bog down. I'm not really familiar with the Princeton offense, but it sounds like the Suns were running a modified version of such or what I call the passing game.

Ideally, I would like for the Suns to add another tall guard with PG and shooting skills to their roster (a cheaper version of Joe Johnson). Also the Suns need some quality depth at the 4/5. Anyway, I would like for the Suns to have 2-3 players on the court much of the time that can initiate the offense. This would greatly reduce the pressure on Nash.

If the Suns had more depth upfront, I have even envisioned Diaw playing some SG. IMO, the key for the Suns is to have multiple passers on the court that can get the ball to the open shooter.

Of course, the easier fix would be just pass the ball to a healthy Amare and let the opposing defense collapse and find the open shooter. However, I believe what we are generally talking about would work just that much easier with Amare and good insurance as well when he sits down.

 

[Gaddabout]

If the Suns had more depth upfront, I have even envisioned Diaw playing some SG. IMO, the key for the Suns is to have multiple passers on the court that can get the ball to the open shooter.

I can't imagine Diaw ever guarding a shooting guard. At least at small forward he can use the baseline and drive a wing into low-post help defense.

 

[scoutmasterdave]

I definitely think the Suns should steal a few principles from the Princeton offense, creating more movement away from the ball and moving more of the playmaking responsibility to players other than Nash. My biggest pet peeve with the offense now is that at least half a dozen times per game, they run a screen/roll at the top of the key, leaving a big guy on Nash, and the other four guys sit around waiting for the pass while Nash dribbles endlessly. Some more back picks, cuts, and therefore ball movement can't be a bad thing.

 

[Yuma]

What? Adapt to the Princeton offense, and actually SLOW down their attack? I'll stick with this Westhead running the other teams into submission offense! Add Amare and maybe a couple draft picks to this, and viola, all our problems will be taken care of!

 

[F-Dog]

I really don't see the Suns wanting to turn Nash and Marion into spot-up shooters. Beyond that, the offense definitely doesn't need fixing.

My main concern right now is that the Suns seem to be losing their shooting touch, and with it the spacing that carried them in 2004/5. They're not going to be able to disguise that with a new system, of course.

 

[Gaddabout]

When Nash is off the floor, I think the Suns can borrow from offenses based on continuous motion to free scorers like Barbosa (rather than just putting it in his hands to create on every play). If Diaw and Amare are in the game, they could use the Double-Post Motion like this:

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This would allow Diaw and Stoudemire to draw attention and create easy opportunities for the perimeter players.

With Stoudemire out and Diaw operating alone at center, they could use Wheel Continuity princples like this one:

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Either way, if Barbosa can't create shots for others, he'll have to learn some new skills like setting screens and moving without the ball.

 

[Mainstreet]

I can't imagine Diaw ever guarding a shooting guard. At least at small forward he can use the baseline and drive a wing into low-post help defense.

Gaddabout, I find you to be very knowlegeable about basketball so maybe I'm missing something.

I just didn't understand why Diaw wouldn't be able to guard another team's SG. I know the Suns plan to use Diaw in the frontcourt, but I still don't understand why he wouldn't be able to guard a SG if needed. Diaw is quick, tall, and a good defender in my estimation. Atlanta even wanted him to play PG. From my observation, Diaw seemed to get into foul trouble most often when he had to guard bigger players like 4/5's inside.

I just see Diaw being able to play positions 1-5. IMO, he should be able to guard most SG's with perhaps a few exceptions. I have yet to see Diaw's ceiling as far as talent.

 

[Gaddabout]

Gaddabout, I find you to be very knowlegeable about basketball so maybe I'm missing something.

I just didn't understand why Diaw wouldn't be able to guard another team's SG. I know the Suns plan to use Diaw in the frontcourt, but I still don't understand why he wouldn't be able to guard a SG if needed. Diaw is quick, tall, and a good defender in my estimation. Atlanta even wanted him to play PG. From my observation, Diaw seemed to get into foul trouble most often when he had to guard bigger players like 4/5's inside.

I just see Diaw being able to play positions 1-5. IMO, he should be able to guard most SG's with perhaps a few exceptions. I have yet to see Diaw's ceiling as far as talent.

Diaw is quick as a center. He's fairly neutralized in the backcourt. Atlanta wanted him to play PG for his ball skills, but he was only a slightly above average athlete. They were willing to concede some defense, just like most teams do with their point guards. He's a good athlete in the sense that not many 6-8 guys can move as fluidly as he does. But he's not going to take Tony Parker off the dribble.

I think Diaw is a competent defender in that he works hard and moves his feet. He's just outmatched athletically at shooting guard, although he would be very hard to shoot over. He should develop into an OK defender of forwards because he has less space to cover and his long arms make him play taller than 6-8.

 

[George O'Brien]

Most teams that run the Princeton have slow players. I'm not sure what impact it would have to run elements of it using a more athletic group. My guess is that if D'Antoni went that direction, the offense would look a lot different. What might survive is a greater emphasis on some of the things we started to see this season, but in a more systematic form.

1. Greater use of cutters. The 2004-05 team rarely used cutters. Having Diaw seemed to encourage guys to cut to the basket a lot more, but it was inconsistent. The same with baseline moves by Marion, they started to move the ball better but seemed to forget in crunch time.

2. High post sets. Boris was used at the high post and did trigger some plays from there. Still, they did not consistently run the ball through him when Nash was out.

3. Off the ball picks and screens. One person made the comment that the Suns have mostly catch and shoot guys who don't shoot well on the move such as coming off screens. Eddie House was really the only guy who seemed to have that style and the Suns stopped running those plays where he'd shoot coming off screens. Is this a case of the players not being able to shoot coming off screens or simply that they aren't being trained in that style of shooting?

Obviously if the Suns can find a Nash clone, the current offense is very potent - especially with Amare drawing double teams. However, the Suns had a lot of stagnant periods in the Mavs series and need an option when Nash or some other point guard can't easily get into the lane.

 

[Errntknght]

George:
2. High post sets. Boris was used at the high post and did trigger some plays from there. Still, they did not consistently run the ball through him when Nash was out.

It will make a difference that D'Antoni will know he wants Boris playing high post (elbow) going into training camp. I suppose its possible that D'A will not realize the value of guys cutting on the baseline, because he hasn't to date but its impossible not the realize that cutting and movement in general works great with an adept passer in the high post.

The one aspect of his game that Amare is almost certain to have improved is his jump shot so where does that put him but at the other elbow, where he was close to 'money' before. Put the ball in Boris' hands and his man will have to be up on him - if Amare's man lays back to defend the paint it's a short, quick pass to him for a J, or worse as Amare's man scrambles to defend the J, Amare blows by him for a dunk. Heck, if Amare's man gets more than arms length from him he'll have to watch either Boris or Amare like a hawk so he's not going to be seeing what else is happening on the floor. In fact, if he watches Boris too much Amare will go around him for an 'oop'. Odds are that he maintains hand contact with Amare and watches Boris.

Now with all that open space around the hoop and the closest defenders occupied, what player would need a coach to tell him he should cut? Even Barbs would do that and he's got Amare there to rub off his man on.


3. Off the ball picks and screens. One person made the comment that the Suns have mostly catch and shoot guys who don't shoot well on the move such as coming off screens. Eddie House was really the only guy who seemed to have that style and the Suns stopped running those plays where he'd shoot coming off screens. Is this a case of the players not being able to shoot coming off screens or simply that they aren't being trained in that style of shooting?

Probably the most effective screen in the dual high post setup is the backpick for Amare and Diaw - set by a guard or SF. House and Nash set a few back picks for Marion at the elbow the year past so they might continue to do it on their own but I don't expect D'Antoni to preach it.

In his first years Shawn was effective curling off screens at about the FT line but he's stopped for some reason. If the Suns wanted to run it off the dual hi post, all Amare would have to do is drop a couple of feet below the FT line and Marion curl up from the baseline - Amare's man wouldn't dare help. The funny thing is that Shawn might spoil it most of the time by driving down the middle to the hoop! But don't hold your breath.

I'm sure they'll develope some maneuvers along this line - the beauty of the this system is that when Boris has the ball in his hands, his and Amare's defenders are frozen. They're impediments to their teammates as the Suns cut around the post guys and they dare not help much. It'll be impossible not to figure out ways to exploit it.

Obviously if the Suns can find a Nash clone, the current offense is very potent - especially with Amare drawing double teams. However, the Suns had a lot of stagnant periods in the Mavs series and need an option when Nash or some other point guard can't easily get into the lane.

I don't see a problem next year... this offense is good enough without the pick and roll.