Should the Suns keep Ryan McDonough as GM

[Mainstreet]

Im sure he'd love to come home. ASU alumn also!

I give you lots of credit for coming up with a realistic option.

 

[Phrazbit]

I actually think Griffin is a terrible GM. Those Cavs teams were disasters, minus LeBron.

 

[StreetTruckinTitan]

I actually think Griffin is a terrible GM. Those Cavs teams were disasters, minus LeBron.

He took over as GM in 2014 and went to the finals 3 consecutive years including one championship. Yes he had lebron but he can only be judged on his years as GM.

 

[Ronin]

I am unsure. Maybe because I am scared that the next GM that comes in, Might be worse than the current one that we have now.

 

[Phrazbit]

He took over as GM in 2014 and went to the finals 3 consecutive years including one championship. Yes he had lebron but he can only be judged on his years as GM.

LeBron has made it to the finals 8 years in a row. I can't really give Griffin any credit for that.

One thing Griffin does get credit for... the worst #1 pick in NBA history.

The issue with Anthony was, and we had no way of knowing it at the time, the kid had no desire to overcome adversity whatsoever. As soon as it was hard, he was out,” (David) Griffin said. “His whole life, he rolled out of bed bigger, better, and more talented than everybody else. As soon as it was hard, it was over. And I was the one on campus at UNLV. I’m the one who got sold the bill of goods and I bought it hook, line, and sinker.

Griffin wasn't the GM yet but he was Anthony Bryant's champion in Cavs draft debate and ended up winning the debate.

He inherited Kyrie, had nothing to do with LeBron's return, surrounded them with really iffy talent (JR Smith is and has been among the worst starters in the NBA), gave Tristan Thompson that insane contract. Griffin's stamp on that franchise is paying out the nose to surround LeBron with expensive, old and marginal players. Yeah, they won a title, but that was LeBron and Irving (2 guys he did nothing to attain) dragging a crap roster, that Griffin built, over the finish line.

 

[JCSunsfan]

David Griffin anyone? He didnt do a bad job as GM with the Cavs and the only reason he's not with them now is because the owner is a nightmare....nevermind!

David Griffin was given LeBron and two overall #1 picks. He got one championship. His teams have significantly underachieved and he could not put cohesive talent around LeBron. Of course, LeBron may have hurt the management of the team more than he helped through his play on the court. I just don't see Griff as that good.

 

[StreetTruckinTitan]

You boys continue to enjoy the excellent job our current GM is churning out into yet another cellar dweller year. I expect more than the staus quo....again.

 

[Superbone]

You boys continue to enjoy the excellent job our current GM is churning out into yet another cellar dweller year. I expect more than the staus quo....again.

So, you tell us what the answer is and make it happen. Thanks.

 

[Phrazbit]

You boys continue to enjoy the excellent job our current GM is churning out into yet another cellar dweller year. I expect more than the staus quo....again.

I'm open to ideas... I just happen to think David Griffin is a bad one.

 

[StreetTruckinTitan]

I'm open to ideas... I just happen to think David Griffin is a bad one.

Well lets hear some ideas? I said Griffin cause he's from the Suns and already has a working relationship with saver. Give me some names other than what we got? Im trying to solve this problem and want to see our Suns thrive once again the same as everyone else?

 

[Matt L]

He should be fired at the end of the year if not before the end of the year. That said, I would rather have him at GM then nobody with Sarver making all the personnel decisions.

 

[Cheesebeef]

LeBron has made it to the finals 8 years in a row. I can't really give Griffin any credit for that.

One thing Griffin does get credit for... the worst #1 pick in NBA history.


Griffin wasn't the GM yet but he was Anthony Bryant's champion in Cavs draft debate and ended up winning the debate.

He inherited Kyrie, had nothing to do with LeBron's return, surrounded them with really iffy talent (JR Smith is and has been among the worst starters in the NBA), gave Tristan Thompson that insane contract. Griffin's stamp on that franchise is paying out the nose to surround LeBron with expensive, old and marginal players. Yeah, they won a title, but that was LeBron and Irving (2 guys he did nothing to attain) dragging a crap roster, that Griffin built, over the finish line.

Hard to argue with this. I like thinking new Street, but jury’s wayyyyyy Out On Griff, IMO.

 

[hcsilla]

How about Sam Hinkie?

 

[BC867]

...Sarver is the owner, and he doesn't appear to be going anywhere.

That is what I don't understand. Sarver owns 30% of the Suns which, as the largest shareholder, made him Managing General Partner.

Why can't the other owners choose one of them to oversee the show? Or band together as a 70% voice and override him?

Why?

Why?

Because owners look at one thing. Profit.

I wonder how long the current most embarrassing team of losers in the NBA will continue to fill the owners' pockets.

It would be nice if the majority had the cojones to bring up an obligation of the Managing General Partner to hire talented people, then go count his money.

The attention getting foam finger was a clue of things to come. Then he making General Manager decisions as a novice made it worse. The the turnover of coaches and players.

Look how long it has taken as many posters as on this thread to clamor for change. It is, however, understandable.

It is not understandable for the other owners to tolerate Sarver's status quo.

It starts at the top and rolls downhill. i never knew that sh*t could roll.

 

[JCSunsfan]

How about Sam Hinkie?

That is hilarious. Sam Hinkie did exactly the same thing McD is doing. He was willing to fail and fail and fail in trades and picks until he was finally got a few right. Why is he better?

 

[Cheesebeef]

That is hilarious. Sam Hinkie did exactly the same thing McD is doing. He was willing to fail and fail and fail in trades and picks until he was finally got a few right. Why is he better?

No. Hinkie PLANNED to be terrible to get high draft picks... and succeeded.

McD continually plans for the team to be better... but every attempt to do so ends up with the team seemingly WORSE. And then he fails to nail his highest picks.

Ending up in similar positions doesn't mean they took the same road there. They literally haven't done almost ANYTHING the same. McD has signed awful players to long term deals... he's traded away GREAT assets like the Lakers pick and gotten late first rounders... while the Sixers actually GOT more HIGH first round picks... you know... like our Lakers pick. McD continually tried to shorten "the timeline" by signing awful players like Knight... and tried to compound that signing guys like Griffin/Aldridge which would have left us in mediocrity with MASSIVE contracts.

The idea that McD was willing to fail and fail and fail is ridiculous. the end of last season was the FIRST time he's gone full tank. Before that he continually TRIED to make us better, but all his attempts to do so have failed and failed and failed. That's not the same thing as Hinkie... not even close.

 

[hcsilla]

That is hilarious. Sam Hinkie did exactly the same thing McD is doing.

No, Hinkie did the exact opposite.

First, he had a plan. Second, he executed it.

That's why they already ended up the rebuilding despite starting it later and back then having less assets than the Suns did.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No, Hinkie did the exact opposite.

First, he had a plan. Second, he executed it.

That's why they already ended up the rebuilding despite starting it later and having less assets than the Suns did.

This is so blatantly obvious that it confuses me how someone who regularly talks basketball and participated in ALL these tank v. non-tank discussions sees what Hinkie did and what McD did as the same thing.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This is so blatantly obvious that it confuses me how someone who regularly talks basketball and participated in ALL these tank v. non-tank discussions sees what Hinkie did and what McD did as the same thing.

Cheese, they don’t even realize that the suns have only purposefully tanked for part of a single season. These are the same folks who keepntrotting out the argument “I suppose you want to tank forever” thereby evidencing their lack of understanding.

 

[elindholm]

Hinkie had a plan and executed it, but he also got lucky. The Sixers got their better share of the lottery odds over and over. Expecting that the Suns could match that feat is a pipe dream.

The fashion is to look at whatever franchise is currently surging and say, "See, that's how it's done!" But there is no formula. There was no formula during the Colangelo era either, just a strategy that happened to work out, although of course ultimately falling short.

I can't tell whether McDonough has a plan. To me the biggest concern is that he lacks intuition for how things will play out. The experiment with multiple PGs, the value of washed-up role players, the "project" that is Dragan Bender. When the information is laid out more clearly in front of him, like when he's negotiating a contract with a player whose ability is known, he's on much more secure footing.

 

[Hoop Head]

Why are we talking about firing McD now? Where was this line of thinking during the offseason last year or earlier this season? He hasn't been perfect but he's made the right moves more often than not. He didn't try to sign someone for the sake of using our cap space last summer because it was clear the team was still in on the tank for the most part. I know some people can claim they weren't tanking this year but considering they didn't add anyone in the offseason or attempt to, that sent a signal they planned on being bad again to get another top pick in this draft. I think that was the right move, look at where the Suns are now. They may not have tanked as hard as some would have liked but they have been tanking.

Watson was a bad hire but I don't blame McD exclusively for that. The reason he hired Watson is because the entire team was behind him and wanted him to take over as the head coach after he took over for Hornacek when he was let go. I think the opinion of the roster is a lot more important than that of fans. Watson had the Suns playing well during that half season where he wore the interim label. He tried a different approach when he took over though and got progressively worse as time went on. Thankfully McD recognized the issue and got him out of here but did take his time in doing so. Ideally he would have been replaced in the offseason but if he was I doubt the Suns would be in line to get as high of a draft pick as they are right now. Perhaps the youngsters like Chriss, Bender, and Jackson would have played better this year if they had a real coach teaching them during training camp but they had Watson. I don't think their development is damaged beyond repair because of a training camp with Watson.

It'll be interesting to see who is brought in as our next head coach, I don't know who that will be but I doubt it will be Triano. I think McD learned from his mistake there. At a few points during this season fans wanted the interim label to be removed from Triano but thankfully that's not something that McD let influence his decision as the GM. Our next coach will be an important hire though and I'm sure McD knows that his job is riding on that pick so he needs to get someone that can work with young players and is better at X's and O's than Hornacek and Watson were. I think he should be allowed to call the shots this offseason though. The Suns don't have anyone waiting in the wings that could step in to run this team so the idea of firing McD only to shake things up would be a mistake. It would set the rebuild back a few more years because whoever is brought in would want to mold the roster to fit their plans rather than allowing McD to finish carrying out what he has planned. To say he doesn't have anything planned is a bit short sighted also. They've had the "Timeline" plan in place for the last year or so and it's still in play now. McD has stated the timeline is moving up some because they'll have some cap space this summer and I don't think that's a bad move because this draft should be one of the best in decades and we'll have a top 10 pick in it and also have close to max cap space to bring in someone else to fill some of the holes on the roster.

Call the Suns a laughing stock all you want, firing the GM without having any capable replacement lined up and that will only make the Suns look even worse.

 

[hcsilla]

Hinkie had a plan and executed it, but he also got lucky. The Sixers got their better share of the lottery odds over and over.

Not really.

They had the 2nd worst record in 2014 and ended up with #3.
They had the 3rd worst record in 2015 and ended up with #3.
They had the worst record in 2016 and ended up with #1.
They had the 4th worst record in 2017 and ended up with #3 but that was due the Stauskas-trade and the pick-swap with the Kings, otherwise they would have got #5.

Based on that I would not call them lucky.

The fashion is to look at whatever franchise is currently surging and say, "See, that's how it's done!" But there is no formula.

You can call it a formula or you can not but there are rules of rebuilding that Hinkie did follow strictly and McD did not.

1. Stay down until you draft your core players or you get enough assets for trading the final core pieces.
2. Obtain as many draft picks as possible.
3. Keep trading even your promising prospects (like they did with MCW) until you find core players.
4. Do not hand out long-term contracts until you get the majority of your core players, keep cap flexibiity for trades where you can acquire further draft picks.
5. Hire a good coaching staff and play hard even under the worst circumstances.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Why are we talking about firing McD now? Where was this line of thinking during the offseason last year or earlier this season? He hasn't been perfect but he's made the right moves more often than not. He didn't try to sign someone for the sake of using our cap space last summer because it was clear the team was still in on the tank for the most part. I know some people can claim they weren't tanking this year but considering they didn't add anyone in the offseason or attempt to, that sent a signal they planned on being bad again to get another top pick in this draft. I think that was the right move, look at where the Suns are now. They may not have tanked as hard as some would have liked but they have been tanking.

Watson was a bad hire but I don't blame McD exclusively for that. The reason he hired Watson is because the entire team was behind him and wanted him to take over as the head coach after he took over for Hornacek when he was let go. I think the opinion of the roster is a lot more important than that of fans. Watson had the Suns playing well during that half season where he wore the interim label. He tried a different approach when he took over though and got progressively worse as time went on. Thankfully McD recognized the issue and got him out of here but did take his time in doing so. Ideally he would have been replaced in the offseason but if he was I doubt the Suns would be in line to get as high of a draft pick as they are right now. Perhaps the youngsters like Chriss, Bender, and Jackson would have played better this year if they had a real coach teaching them during training camp but they had Watson. I don't think their development is damaged beyond repair because of a training camp with Watson.

It'll be interesting to see who is brought in as our next head coach, I don't know who that will be but I doubt it will be Triano. I think McD learned from his mistake there. At a few points during this season fans wanted the interim label to be removed from Triano but thankfully that's not something that McD let influence his decision as the GM. Our next coach will be an important hire though and I'm sure McD knows that his job is riding on that pick so he needs to get someone that can work with young players and is better at X's and O's than Hornacek and Watson were. I think he should be allowed to call the shots this offseason though. The Suns don't have anyone waiting in the wings that could step in to run this team so the idea of firing McD only to shake things up would be a mistake. It would set the rebuild back a few more years because whoever is brought in would want to mold the roster to fit their plans rather than allowing McD to finish carrying out what he has planned. To say he doesn't have anything planned is a bit short sighted also. They've had the "Timeline" plan in place for the last year or so and it's still in play now. McD has stated the timeline is moving up some because they'll have some cap space this summer and I don't think that's a bad move because this draft should be one of the best in decades and we'll have a top 10 pick in it and also have close to max cap space to bring in someone else to fill some of the holes on the roster.

Call the Suns a laughing stock all you want, firing the GM without having any capable replacement lined up and that will only make the Suns look even worse.

Uh he WAS planning on signing someone this offseason . . . Blake griffin. But Blake decided to just resign with the clippers. So it seems you’re wrong on that account.

And to say we we’ve been tanking while continuing to play veterans and look to make upgrades just isn’t accurate. We have tanked for part of a single season and that’s it. To say we aren’t tanking as hard as some want leads me to believe you don’t understand what a tank is. You can’t partially tank or somewhat tank. I mean you can, but that’s the single dumbest strategy I’ve ever heard of. “Let’s be bad but not bad enough to truly impact the franchise” - huh?

 

[elindholm]

Not really.

They had the 2nd worst record in 2014 and ended up with #3.
They had the 3rd worst record in 2015 and ended up with #3.
They had the worst record in 2016 and ended up with #1.
They had the 4th worst record in 2017 and ended up with #3 but that was due the Stauskas-trade and the pick-swap with the Kings, otherwise they would have got #5.

Based on that I would not call them lucky.

You wouldn't?

The #2 lottery seed has a .561 chance of getting a top three pick.
The #3 lottery seed has a .472 chance of getting a top three pick.
The #1 lottery seed has a .250 chance of getting the top pick.

For the three years 2014-16, given their lottery position, they had only a .066 chance of picking as high as they did. That's 1/15.

Their entire plan required getting very lucky in the lottery. They did, so good for them, but it's not nearly as systematic as hindsight makes it look.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Sorry if some of my replies sound harsh I’m just sometimes astonished the lengths that some of you go to support your argument when the facts are very simple and plain for us to see. There’s a lot of misinformation and conjecture thrown out there by the anti-team gang. A lot of it is posted even after the correct information is provided. I am not attacking any one person, these comments are meant broadly.