Skip Bayless tells the Truth

[stompg]

To dislike the guy because of the adultery thing is kind of bush IMO, considering what the rest of the league and, well, human population is like in general - it really has no bearing on what I think of him as the person.

I never said that the adultery was the only reason to dislike Kobe. I was asked to give an example of how he is selfish and that was the best example that I could come up with.

 

[stompg]

I never justified the action, but it is a widespread issue among professional athletes and celebrities in general. My point is that my expectations for those I cheer for are confined to what they do in between the lines and not what they choose to do with consenting adults outside of them. I am many things, but I'm certainly not the morality police and as long as they're playing a game and not dating my sister then who am I to judge?

I do not have any problem with this line of thinking. Let me clarify for all those that think I'm on a morality crusade.

On this thread someone suggested that Skip Bayless had blind hatred for Kobe. I posted something to point out that Kobe has done many things as an individual to merit people disliking him. In that post I listed that I thought he was a selfish person. Someone else asked me how I knew he was selfish. I used the incident in Colorado to point out how adultery is indicative of selfish behavior.

Like Kobe, dislike Kobe all that you want. Judge a man based on athletic ability, or judge a man based on his other actions. It's an individual choice. That's the beauty of living in a free society.

 

[elindholm]

I think you're all forgetting the O'Neal/Bryant feud, in which both the media and Jackson came down solidly on O'Neal's side. There was a stretch of time during which members of the media were falling all over themselves to talk about how selfish and arrogant Bryant had to be for breaking up a dynasty. I personally thought it was nonsense, but I would guess that lingering memories of that time -- which, of course, isn't that long ago at all -- are continuing to fuel the "hatred" for Bryant among casual fans.

 

[Mainstreet]

My problem with Kobe is that he is all about himself. See the feud with Shaq as an example. Kobe had to be the man so Shaq had to leave. If Shaq had been as young as Kobe is now, Kobe would have been the one out the Laker door not Shaq. I never thought of Shaq as arrogant. Although Shaq frequently led with his elbow when driving inside, he never used it like a weapon like Kobe.

A young Shaq with a good supporting cast would not have had any trouble winning Championships. Kobe needed Shaq to win Championships. Shaq did not need Kobe. A number of other star quality players would have been sufficient for Shaq and the Lakers to win Championships.

So here is Kobe acting like Michael Jordan and wanting (and getting) the same type of calls that Michael Jordan got (not that I agree Jordan should have had a different set of rules). I don't think Kobe has earned preferential calls from the referees and he should get the same fouls called on him... just like a Raja Bell.

I especially dislike Kobe whining when he doesn't get a call and his projection of entitlement and the referees yielding to a playground bully. Kobe is a great player (maybe the best in the NBA), but he doesn't deserve special treatment. Steve Nash certainly does not get special treatment from the referees and if entitlement ruled... Nash should get it.

 

[elindholm]

A young Shaq with a good supporting cast would not have had any trouble winning Championships.

?? His supporting cast in 1995 was pretty darn good.

 

[D-Dogg]

My problem with Kobe is that he is all about himself. See the feud with Shaq as an example. Kobe had to be the man so Shaq had to leave. If Shaq had been as young as Kobe is now, Kobe would have been the one out the Laker door not Shaq. I never thought of Shaq as arrogant.

The entire reason Shaq was sent packing was because of arrogance. Money, and arrogance.

Not because of the erroneous concept that Kobe drove him out to be the man.

 

[Mainstreet]

A young Shaq with a good supporting cast would not have had any trouble winning Championships.

?? His supporting cast in 1995 was pretty darn good.

Im not saying a young Shaq didn't need help, only that he could have won Championships with a variety of different supporting cast.

I will always remember when Cotton was asked a number of years ago which player would he choose, Kobe or Shaq, if he wanted to win a Championship. Cotton said something to the effect, it was a no brainer, you pick Shaq.

 

[Mainstreet]

The entire reason Shaq was sent packing was because of arrogance. Money, and arrogance.

Not because of the erroneous concept that Kobe drove him out to be the man.

Then it must be a fact???

 

[clif]

The thing that bugs me about Kobe is that he is so fake. He seems to be a guy struggling to find the right identity for himself. One minute he is this young phenom.. next thing you know he is some wanna be thug ... I remember him hitting a shot and flashing his chest (ala tim thomas last night)... so he goes out and gets arrested charged with rape and now he is having interviews with a sweater vest and a tie? Who is this guy?

What really set me off in this series (besides the Raja stuff) is how in each incident he made a point of trying to confront Nash. Also in game 3 I believe he made a brush off his shoulders gesture after a foul that was just silly and should have been a technical for taunting.

His comments about Karl.... his selfishness in (what I believe) was he first Allstar game when he absolutely refused to pass to his teammates.

The list could go on and on.

 

[Lars the Red]

So putting aside the fact the some of you think the writer has an axe to grind, what about the article wasn't accurate? Seems pretty simple. Straight shooting piece about a guy and team that the league would love to have advance. What's the problem?

 

[SunsTzu]

It's not like this guy has a lot of love for the Suns anyway. His nick name for the team is Phoenix Nuns because of how soft they are.

 

[nurnay]

Skip said it better than I could have. The way Kobe has gotten away with those elbows is ridiculous, and the Lakers were gifted game 4 by the refs. They clearly saw Nash calling TO (and getting fouled in the process), but let it go.

 

[nurnay]

Here's the thing, Kobe is an absolutely phenomenal basketball player. The things he does on the court are simply amazing. He is such a mix of grace, speed, and desire that you can't help but say wow. There is absolutely no debating that he is one of the best basketball players to play the game.

Agreed. The way he throws up shots, off balance or out of control, he still finds a way to make them. It simultaneoulsy pisses me off and blows me away.

With all that being said, Kobe the individual is quite frankly a deplorable man. He is pompous. He is brash. His sense of entitlement is one of the worst in the league

To add to that, he is one of the biggest on-court whiners I've ever seen. He complains to the refs more than any other player in the league. If he misses a shot, it MUST be because he was fouled. That gets tiring.

 

[MastersofCombat]

Actually this state has some of the worst reporters ever.
Joe Gilmartin was really good a lifetime ago....
Pedro Gomez hates everything to do with the valley teams
Mark Jurecki I would place just behind
Dan Bickley as the biggest AZ sports hater.
John Gambo bugs me cause he straddles a NY / AZ fence

TV guys: Mark Curtis and Cooper do a good job but they dont get enough words in or time to really show they are proud of AZ teams.
Craig Fuhey knowledge of sports being its his job is sickening
Ross channel 3 likeable guy just not informative
channel 10 Jude LaCava problem with him is no one watches 10 its become channel 5 just above PBS.
Bruce Jacobs wow glad he is out of Sports
Arnie Spanaird he only wants to get a rise out of people when he has to be in a local market. National market much better.
OOH yeah 1060 round table might be the best in the valley. You dont learn much from them because they dont break anything down enough. I like the positive side of sports attitude.

I actually think Rome and Patrick are at least fair about the phoenix teams when they have no reason.

 

[dyle_ph1]

Kobe had to be the man so Shaq had to leave.

Whether that is true or not, Shaq did the same thing when he was in Orlando one season after reaching the Finals with Penny Hardaway. He left because he wanted to be the man but Penny was stealing his "limelight". That decision never made a stigma in Shaq's career as it has on Kobe's.

I do agree that Bryant is not the most personable person in the world. He is easy to hate because he's extremely good at what he does. I remember hating Michael Jordan the same way although I was a lot younger then and blind hate came very easy.

Going back to the article, Skip Bayless might not be the most credible person in the world but his points are pretty accurate. If you take out his name from the article, the facts are still more accurate than the things that we have heard from other analysts about those "miscalls" in this series.

 

[Mainstreet]

Whether that is true or not, Shaq did the same thing when he was in Orlando one season after reaching the Finals with Penny Hardaway. He left because he wanted to be the man but Penny was stealing his "limelight". That decision never made a stigma in Shaq's career as it has on Kobe's.

I do agree that Bryant is not the most personable person in the world. He is easy to hate because he's extremely good at what he does. I remember hating Michael Jordan the same way although I was a lot younger then and blind hate came very easy.

Interesting point about Penny being a star in Orlando and getting his share of limelight. However, Shaq needed another star with him to win a Championship in Orlando anyway.

I do remember Shaq was infatuated with Hollywood and the opportunities there and wanting to be a movie star.

IMO, Shaq wanted to be a part of the Hollywood scene and a bigger market and that is why he made the move.

I don't recall if Penny and Shaq had any major problems otherwise other than many thought Orlando (at the time) was a team that could win many Championships if the two continued playing together. Who knows? However, Shaq did not come over as the bad guy to many in the league or even today as arrogant.

I do still remember the "Little Penny" commercials.

I always had this deep disturbing thought that somehow the Lakers lured Shaq there. A sort of a conspiracy theory for the Lakers to get a big man which they usually have had over the years. I thought this was a very sad situation for Orlando at the time... to lose their biggest star.

In regard to players like Jordan, Kareem and Magic... I just didn't like them very much on the court because they were so good... but it wasn't anything personal as I thought they were essentially good people.

Now Kobe is different. I can live with him being a great player but he always seems to project this better than thou attitude (or selfish attitude) which rubs many fans the wrong way. It's hard to put into words, but I have tried to do so in other posts. He is an amazing talent. There is no doubt about that. Now if he were only a little more humble.

 

[bko32]

A couple insights into character from my opinion:

1) you never rat another guy out to the freaking police - brother code. Jesus Christ - just because you're in trouble means you could possibly RUIN someone else' life? Sounds like someone who thinks of one person and one person only - KOBE.

2) getting on Karl Malone for some misconstrued "comments" made to Vanessa. Saying he could never forgive him - funny coming from a guy who was begging for EVERYONE'S forgiveness when he may have RAPED a woman and at least cheated on his wife and embarassed his entire family and orgnaization... but, yeah, I guess it's cool to hold a grudge because of a miscommunication..., again - pretty pathetic, focussing on one person and one person only... oh yeah... his name is KOBE.

3) The fact that I DO believe that Kobe believes he is above everybody - Phil talked about it in his book, he's never been even clsoe to friends with any of his teamates - you NEVER saw that with MJ - young or old - even though the man WAS above everyone else. The guy was able to be part of the guys, gambling, getting drunk, you know - being a normal person - something that just doesn't seem to enter Kobe's hemisphere... again - only one person matters... KOBE.

That about sums it up - from everything we've read about him, to the way he interacts with his guys on the court, apparently off court and well, behind bars, it adds up to a pretty ugly picture of a human being that is so self-absorbed that it makes Tom Cruise look like Mother Freaking Theresa.

It also expalins why he's so damn good - when you think that much about yourslef and nothing else, you'll drive yourself to be the absolute best - so it goes both ways, I guess - positives and minuses - although so far in his solo act, the minuses outweigh the positives... I hope that lasts cause he's scary on the court.

i didn't have time earlier to respond to these points, since there were so many, but i'll do it know.

1. i don't remember anyone outside of the media reporting that kobe ratted out shaq. if you have some other source other than the media, i'd like to know about it. either way, shaq and him ended their feud and seemed to get over, or at least accept their differences. if shaq can forgive/forget about this incident, why can't you?

2. the karl malone deal....i'll give you this one. don't know why kobe got so ticked off about this. it was a statement that was misconstrued and kobe flipped out. i imagine if he were to look back at this, he'd feel pretty stupid, but that's just speculation.

3. i've never read phil jackson's book, so i can't comment on what was or wasn't in it. however, kobe and derek fisher were very good friends. he was also pretty good friends with brian shaw. outside of these 2, yeah, kobe didn't have too many other friends on the team back in his earlier years in the league. but i also don't think his teammates all hated him, they were more just acquaintances than anything else. kobe is a different cat. he's very private with his personal life and doesn't let a whole lot of people into his inner circle. but, he is a normal person. he goes out to the movies and restaurants and doesn't ask the to sit in a private room or request that the movie theatre be emptied just for him. i have read quite a few posts on various laker boards about seeing kobe out in public at the local mall or restaurant. he is normal in this regard. he just doesn't do these things with his teammates, rather his family and close friends. don't see how this necessarily makes him selfish or arrogant. rather real private and protective of himself.

i'm not trying to change anyone's mind on a SUNS board that kobe is a great guy or even a likable guy. i just think that many of the things that people hear about kobe comes from the national media. the national media reports the gossip and the stories that will make big news. the local media will report the big news as well as the little things that go on as well. kobe is generous with his money and donates his time and money to charities. he goes out in public and hangs out with his friends. yes, he is extremely confident in his basketball skills, and in the eyes of non-laker fans, this is seem as cocky and arrogant. i felt this way about jordan and bird when they were in their primes, but i never hated them as much as some of you hate kobe. barry bonds is the epitome of cocky and arrogant and i don't think kobe is anywhere needs bond's level, but yet kobe might be hated just as much as bonds, if not more. i'm not saying each person's reasons for hating kobe is wrong. i just think there are things about kobe that many people don't hear about. if you hate him then you hate him, doesn't bother me too much. i just don't understand the level of hatred that he gets (if a poll was taken, i've gotta imagine he's one of the most hated athletes in pro sports) this is the part i don't understand.

i don't know kobe personally and i don't think he is a god, diety whatever. much of what i know or hear about him is through the local media. however, i've had a personal encounter with kobe and a separate encounter with kobe's mother and sister. all 3 of them were very likeable and personable people when i met them. all 3 spent the time to carry a conversation with me, albeit, a somewhat short conversation. does this blind me to all that kobe does? probably, but i'm not completely blind to every thing he does. i'll be the first to tell you how disgusted i was to find out he committed adultery and the first to tell you how bad of a game he played the other night, despite scoring 50. damn, sorry this post is so long. wonder if anyone will actually read this

 

[Mainstreet]

if you hate him then you hate him, doesn't bother me too much. i just don't understand the level of hatred that he gets (if a poll was taken, i've gotta imagine he's one of the most hated athletes in pro sports) this is the part i don't understand.

I try very hard not to "hate" anyone let alone Kobe.

However, perhaps the reason Kobe is disliked so much is an accumulation of the type items you mentioned above. But remember a lot of people like him. Afterall, this is a Suns discussion board.

Don't worry so much about what people think about Kobe.

It sooner or later all comes out in the wash... but the laundry does look pretty dirty.

I certainly know the Suns wanted to move up in the draft to get Kobe.

Maybe the Suns fans would be looking at the situation through your eyes if they had drafted him... but probably not if JC had the final say after his legal entanglements.

The point about other players getting away with arrogance is well taken. Perhaps an example is Charles Barkley. However, I think most fans want to believe such players down deep are good people. Maybe they do not want to believe this about Kobe.

I do not want to judge (I only like to express opinions). Everyone has enough faults of their own to be judgmental. I will try to give him the benefit of the doubt... but it will be hard.

 

[bko32]

I do not want to judge (I only like to express opinions). Everyone has enough faults of their own to be judgemental. I will try to give him the benefit of the doubt... but it will be hard.

this is all i wish more people would do - give him the benefit of the doubt. just like many people view kobe as egocentric and arrogant, many laker fans feel the same about marion. but most people outside of phoenix don't know that he does a lot of community service and is a nice guy. they simply see the quotes in the media and react on some of the dumb things he says. this is kobe, somewhat, in a nutshell. not comparing kobe to marion, just using marion as an example of how other fans view certain players.

 

[sunsfn]

The thing that bugs me about Kobe is that he is so fake. He seems to be a guy struggling to find the right identity for himself. One minute he is this young phenom.. next thing you know he is some wanna be thug ... I remember him hitting a shot and flashing his chest (ala tim thomas last night)... so he goes out and gets arrested charged with rape and now he is having interviews with a sweater vest and a tie? Who is this guy?

What really set me off in this series (besides the Raja stuff) is how in each incident he made a point of trying to confront Nash. Also in game 3 I believe he made a brush off his shoulders gesture after a foul that was just silly and should have been a technical for taunting.

His comments about Karl.... his selfishness in (what I believe) was he first Allstar game when he absolutely refused to pass to his teammates.

The list could go on and on.

I remember this happening in his first all-star game.

Kobe was hogging the ball on many occasions.

Karl Malone was open very close to the basket and called for the ball for what appeared to be an easy score, Kobe refused to pass to him and dribbled to the other side of the court.

After the next time out, Kobe was taken out and never returned to the game.

 

[D-Dogg]

I remember this happening in his first all-star game.

Kobe was hogging the ball on many occasions.

Karl Malone was open very close to the basket and called for the ball for what appeared to be an easy score, Kobe refused to pass to him and dribbled to the other side of the court.

After the next time out, Kobe was taken out and never returned to the game.

You remember it a little wrong. Kobe was trying to go one on one with Jordan and Malone came to set a pick...Kobe waved Malone off and Malone got pissed.

It wasn't a refusal to pass in the low post...it was waving off a pick because he wanted to go 1-on-1 with MJ. Pretty selfish and dumb, but then again he was 18. I did a lot of ridiculous things when I was that age....I wish one of them was pissing off Karl Malone and trying to drive on Jordan.

 

[phxrising]

D-Dogg-

What about the article wasn't accurate?

If you disagree with the points that were in there then bring something to the table to dispute those points.

Crying hater and rambling on the lack of love your boy gets does not change what was stated. rebuttle with some facts....





Good Artical, should have been done in 6

 

[sunsfn]

You remember it a little wrong. Kobe was trying to go one on one with Jordan and Malone came to set a pick...Kobe waved Malone off and Malone got pissed.

It wasn't a refusal to pass in the low post...it was waving off a pick because he wanted to go 1-on-1 with MJ. Pretty selfish and dumb, but then again he was 18. I did a lot of ridiculous things when I was that age....I wish one of them was pissing off Karl Malone and trying to drive on Jordan.

That was another time during the game.

That makes it two times he got Karl mad at him in the same game!

 

[D-Dogg]

That was another time during the game.

That makes it two times he got Karl mad at him in the same game!

Shouldn't that make him a national hero?

Malone was a guy I loved to hate...had to respect him on the Lakers, but that was very hard to do.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Shouldn't that make him a national hero?

Malone was a guy I loved to hate...had to respect him on the Lakers, but that was very hard to do.

Then again you think Smushy Parker is a legitimate NBA player so your standards can't be that high.