So, if the Bidiwlls owned the only Starbucks in Scottsdale...

[82CardsGrad]

Someone posed the following question:

"However, I don't buy into the thinking that the team is "jinxed", or that the "Bidwill's are losers". I especially can't appreciate the thinking that they don't want to win.

So help me understand. Give me three or four "logical" reasons that they would purposely lead the fans (whom pay the bills), and the team (which affords them their lifestyle) down a path of destruction."

To which I replied:

"IMO, part of the problem is the financial structure inherent within the NFL. The NFL allows owners like the Bidwills to do what they've done over the many decades that they've owned this team. In other words, there is little to no incentive to spend $ in the hopes of winning, due to the generous revenue-sharing formulas within the NFL.
However, one can now say that with the construction of the new stadium (although, the Bidwills only coughed up a fraction of the costs), bringing in Denny, Edge, Berry, Okeafor. Signing Q, Wilson & Dockett to long term deals. Getting Leinart signed.... One can now say that the evidence is there to support the feeling that the Bidwills are more willing to part with cash, in hopes of producing W's. Note that I continue to use the term "hope", as I do believe the Bidwills "hope" that their increased spending translates into more W's...
However, spending $$ and "hoping" to win is not nearly enough to actually produce W's. You simply can not spend and hope enough, to somehow erase the decades of record-setting futlity this franchise has achieved. It won't happen and as we've seen, it hasn't happened...
Winning in pro sports has as much to do with leadership (from the ownership all the way down to the assistant coaches) as it does with spending $$ and "hoping" to win... I am quite certain that if the Bidwills owned the only Starbucks in Scottsdale, they would find the way to run it into the ground... They would summarily piss off the multitude of employees who would pass through the revolving door, never allowing for the creation of a positive vibe, an Esprit de Team, a culture of complete reliance upon one another, knowing when and where each person would be throughout the work day. In the end, the customers would feel the dysfunction, the awkward feeling of ineptitude and the comprehensive illustration of a business floating on the ocean without an engine to power it, nor a rudder in the water to steer it... Oh, it might be a particularly appealing Starbucks from the outside. Might even have a nice patio with comfy tables and chairs to enjoy the nightime skies... But after standing in line countless times for far too long, and getting a Venti Vanilla Soy Latte when you ordered a Tall, non-fat no whip Cafe Mocha, it gets old... The incompetence becomes too much to endure...

This my friend, is what the Bidwills have created in the Cardinals... They are the only Starbucks in Scottsdale, and yet they still can't make it work...."

Anyone agree... disagree...

 

[Jay Cardinal]

I think you drink too much coffee.

 

[Mulli]

Starbucks would never let a franchise be run that way. Wouldn't get that far.

 

[Lloydian]

Yes, I'll disagree. Your first part of the answer gives the reason why no team in the NFL has an incentive to win. Your second part then details evidence of them wanting to win and taking steps toward that goal; steps, I might add, that many throughout the league saw as signs of great progress.

Finally, you go into a metaphor simply stating that the Bidwills suck. Answer the question. And while you're at it, show me the evidence that they're not trying.

Decisions are not made in a vacuum. It's important to review the decisions of the owner in the context where they're made. When giving a known quantity (Buddy Ryan) the complete freedom to improve the team results in the team being torn apart, any owner would have shifted course.

As to the Starbucks analogy and their suggested propensity to piss of the employees, ask Eric Hill who signed a one day contract so he could retire a Cardinal. Ask Rob Moore who continues to work for the organization on the radio side. Say what you want about their history of losing, but as people, I've never known of someone to call them anything other than stand-up guys.

 

[jefftheshark]

Starbucks would never let a franchise be run that way. Wouldn't get that far.

Starbucks is not a franchised operation, contrary to popular belief. All the stores are company owned.

The Shark

 

[Mulli]

Starbucks is not a franchised operation, contrary to popular belief. All the stores are company owned.

The Shark

Damn, I thought that for a long time, but someone told me different the other day. Hmmm.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Starbucks is not a franchised operation, contrary to popular belief. All the stores are company owned.

The Shark

I know this... geeez people. I'm simply making a ficticious analogy, pointin out just how aweful the Bidwills are...

 

[Mulli]

I know this... geeez people. I'm simply making a ficticious analogy, pointin out just how aweful the Bidwills are...

The Bidwills are full of awe? Shock and awe?

 

[Lloydian]

Starbucks is not a franchised operation, contrary to popular belief. All the stores are company owned.

Mostly correct, though they do license their name to other operators occasionally.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Yes, I'll disagree. Your first part of the answer gives the reason why no team in the NFL has an incentive to win. Your second part then details evidence of them wanting to win and taking steps toward that goal; steps, I might add, that many throughout the league saw as signs of great progress.

Finally, you go into a metaphor simply stating that the Bidwills suck. Answer the question. And while you're at it, show me the evidence that they're not trying.

Decisions are not made in a vacuum. It's important to review the decisions of the owner in the context where they're made. When giving a known quantity (Buddy Ryan) the complete freedom to improve the team results in the team being torn apart, any owner would have shifted course.

As to the Starbucks analogy and their suggested propensity to piss of the employees, ask Eric Hill who signed a one day contract so he could retire a Cardinal. Ask Rob Moore who continues to work for the organization on the radio side. Say what you want about their history of losing, but as people, I've never known of someone to call them anything other than stand-up guys.

As I said, the system in the NFL helps those who maintain a level of mediocrity. In the Cards case, a level of futility unmatched in professional sports... The Bidwills, more than any other NFL ownership, have benefited from this this arrangement.
And yes, over the last few years, as I pointed out above, they have done some things they show they are willing to spend some $$ and "hope" that the W's materialize. Perhaps you believe that's all it takes... Spend the $$, build a new stadium (with other people's money), and the W's will magically appear... If so - pass the Bong brother!

For every Eric Hill and Rob Moore, there are twice as many who look back on there days spent here in the desert, as if they were imprisoned at Abu Graibh!

 

[Goldfield]

Breaking new! This just in! You might want to sit down for this...

The Bidwills are crappy owners!

Every0ne of us knows that were screwed when it comes to ownership. But there is nothing we can do bout it, except read this MB all hours of the day keeping updated on whats new to the team, only to sit deppressed every NFL sunday and watch our team get killed. Then like groundhogs day back to the MB all week...

 

[Lloydian]

And once again, I see that mediocrity is rewarded, and the Bidwills are making strides. How does that show that they don't want to win? How does that show that they are actively taking steps to hamper this team in the name of frugality over football success?

It's easy to look at a 1-7 team and say they must be doing something wrong. But look around the room. Look around the city. Look around the country. Find me the person who looked at the decisions the Bidwills were making and predicted that Arizona would be 1-7 halfway into the season. Remember, that doesn't include you since you "had them pegged at 8 or 9" wins.

So now we have new information that none of us expected before the season began. We're upset, but lacking a souped up De Lorean and a flux capacitor, we can only strive for good decisions from this point forward.

 

[82CardsGrad]

And once again, I see that mediocrity is rewarded, and the Bidwills are making strides. How does that show that they don't want to win? How does that show that they are actively taking steps to hamper this team in the name of frugality over football success?

It's easy to look at a 1-7 team and say they must be doing something wrong. But look around the room. Look around the city. Look around the country. Find me the person who looked at the decisions the Bidwills were making and predicted that Arizona would be 1-7 halfway into the season. Remember, that doesn't include you since you "had them pegged at 8 or 9" wins.

So now we have new information that none of us expected before the season began. We're upset, but lacking a souped up De Lorean and a flux capacitor, we can only strive for good decisions from this point forward.

Dude - you are missing the entire point of my message... I am not at all questioning the fact that the Bidwills now might want to win! As I pointed out, over the last few years, they have done some things that illustrate a desire to want to win. MY POINT is that "wanting" to win, and knowing "how" to win, are two very, very different concepts!!!
I believe they would "want" to kick butt with their only Starbucks in Scottsdale store - but they would drive it into the ground do to their ineptitude...

 

[Lloydian]

The problem is that you've stated that they haven't made it work, but your conclusion was that they can't make it work. And yet, you had faith that it was going to work this season based on what you saw before the season started.

So what does that say? Does it say that both you and the Bidwills were unconcerned with victory but you were all putting on a brave face? Or does it say that they're making sound decisions, and they're not paying off.

There is an association-causation problem here. I'm not saying the cause cannot be found, but to lay this result at the feet of the Bidwill family should be done with better evidence than you've provided, and isn't that what the original question was?

 

[NEZCardsfan]

This should be moved to the Food Forum.

 

[82CardsGrad]

The problem is that you've stated that they haven't made it work, but your conclusion was that they can't make it work. And yet, you had faith that it was going to work this season based on what you saw before the season started.

So what does that say? Does it say that both you and the Bidwills were unconcerned with victory but you were all putting on a brave face? Or does it say that they're making sound decisions, and they're not paying off.

There is an association-causation problem here. I'm not saying the cause cannot be found, but to lay this result at the feet of the Bidwill family should be done with better evidence than you've provided, and isn't that what the original question was?

Where in the world did I ever say I had "faith" this it was going to work this season?? Are you serious?? Unless of course you believe that predicting 6 wins at the start of the season is "working"??

 

[Lloydian]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1103401#post1103401

I suspect that anyone predicting 8 or 9 wins had more "faith" than you have now (and with good reason).

 

[jefftheshark]

Breaking new! This just in! You might want to sit down for this...

The Bidwills are crappy owners!

Every0ne of us knows that were screwed when it comes to ownership. But there is nothing we can do bout it, except read this MB all hours of the day keeping updated on whats new to the team, only to sit deppressed every NFL sunday and watch our team get killed. Then like groundhogs day back to the MB all week...

I am at the point where I really only look forward to the offseason.

Woody Allen once said (back when he was funny), "that marriage is the death of hope." And this could not be truer for Card fans. The regular season sucks because it is the death of hope also.

The Shark

 

[82CardsGrad]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1103401#post1103401

I suspect that anyone predicting 8 or 9 wins had more "faith" than you have now (and with good reason).

That was my evil alter ego!!! Not me!! Not me!!!

 

[Lloydian]

You know, I don't drink.

But I'm thinking of starting.

 

[Scott MS]

If the Bidwill's owned the only Starbucks in Scottsdale, then Seattle's Best would be everywhere.

 

[justAndy]

so - the Cards brass strung me along for years "wait 'til we get our own stadium".
ok - they got it - but still put $10,000,000 in the bank that they could have got Ty Law with - and that would have got at least 1 more victory for the team.
How are the players and coaches supposed to maintain a winning attitude if the !&%$**# Bidwells don't give a dang about it?
It starts at the top - losing is acceptable to them.
I'm staring to lose heart - 9 years without missing a game.
Next season I'm definately selling my preseason tickets to opposing fans, and probably 1 regular season game - pay my whole year...

 

[AZ Shocker]

Finally, you go into a metaphor simply stating that the Bidwills suck. Answer the question. And while you're at it, show me the evidence that they're not trying.

OMG let's not go there. The list of evidence over the years that the Bidwills are not trying would max out ASFN's bandwidth. Let's just start with the latest...how about Matt Leinart being the LAST NFL rookie to sign this year. Yep...another embarressing blunder. Ain't it funny...Matt's been starting since Week 4 and is obviously the qb of the future, but the Bidwills nickeld and dimed him all the way to start of the regular season. Nice...way to show you wanna win Bidwills. I'm sure Matt really felt "wanted".

 

[Scott MS]

Next season I'm definately selling my preseason tickets to opposing fans, and probably 1 regular season game - pay my whole year...

Join the club.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

OMG let's not go there. The list of evidence over the years that the Bidwills are not trying would max out ASFN's bandwidth. Let's just start with the latest...how about Matt Leinart being the LAST NFL rookie to sign this year. Yep...another embarressing blunder. Ain't it funny...Matt's been starting since Week 4 and is obviously the qb of the future, but the Bidwills nickeld and dimed him all the way to start of the regular season. Nice...way to show you wanna win Bidwills. I'm sure Matt really felt "wanted".

Do you really feel that he was not "wanted" because he was the last to sign? Give me a freakin break. He was the last to sign because he was a top 3 talent that slipped to #10. He wanted to be compensated like he was a top 3 pick, the Cards wanted the #10 slotting. The compromise is what took so long. I thought this was more than obvious....