So much for drafting "franchise" QB's

[spanky1]

Super Bowl bound.........Jake Delhomme and Tom Brady. Were either of them any better than McCown in their respective draft classes? Tell me honestly, had any of you heard about Delhomme prior to this year.....or Brady four years ago?

 

[BigRed]

Actually Brady surprised me but I was hoping the Cards would have looked at "the other Jake" last off season. He had a good rep in New Orleans.My own feeling is you don't need a superstar QB to win football games. I think the two front lines are most important parts of good teams.

 

[JeffGollin]

Tell me honestly, had any of you heard about Delhomme prior to this year
A couple of guys on this board were screaming for the Cardinals to pick up Delhomme as free agent.

.....or Brady four years ago?
Not exactly. But there were 2 or 3 big physical QB prospects who intrigued me and others as possible 4th round picks who could turn out to be pretty good; specifically: Griese, Brady and Bulger.

Note - There is a flaw in logic, when people say "why pick a blue chip QB when a lunch pail guy made it to the Super Bowl?"

Under that assumption, we should never try to draft anybody who's good, because there will always be other unsung prospects who wind up better.

I think what every team tries to do is "improve the odds" by exhausting every means possible to bring in the players they think are most likely to be successful. Sometimes (oft' times?) the hot shot pick doesn't work out, but I do believe that the teams with the best overall "batting averages" in judging talent do eventually prevail.

So maybe the trick of the trade is for teams to evaluate players better - so that a guy like Brady will be rated higher than the gurus think he should be.

 

[spanky1]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
Tell me honestly, had any of you heard about Delhomme prior to this year
A couple of guys on this board were screaming for the Cardinals to pick up Delhomme as free agent.

.....or Brady four years ago?
Not exactly. But there were 2 or 3 big physical QB prospects who intrigued me and others as possible 4th round picks who could turn out to be pretty good; specifically: Griese, Brady and Bulger.

Note - There is a flaw in logic, when people say "why pick a blue chip QB when a lunch pail guy made it to the Super Bowl?"

Under that assumption, we should never try to draft anybody who's good, because there will always be other unsung prospects who wind up better.

I think what every team tries to do is "improve the odds" by exhausting every means possible to bring in the players they think are most likely to be successful. Sometimes (oft' times?) the hot shot pick doesn't work out, but I do believe that the teams with the best overall "batting averages" in judging talent do eventually prevail.

So maybe the trick of the trade is for teams to evaluate players better - so that a guy like Brady will be rated higher than the gurus think he should be.

Jeff,

My point (or the one I'm trying to make), is that Eli and or Ben R. may not be the necessary way to go with our #3 pick. I just do not think that they are going to be heads above McCown. You are right, you win with outstanding line play on both sides of the ball. Also, while Philadelphia and the Colts have great RB's in Staley and James they have only one WR that can break open a game.......you give me Boldin, Johnson and say Roy Williams and we would be very very tough to defense against. The days of "franchise QB's" ended when Aikman & Elway, Kelly and Marino retired......and the latter two never brought home the "big one".

 

[JeffGollin]

My point (or the one I'm trying to make), is that Eli and or Ben R. may not be the necessary way to go
Can't disagree. But the process has to involve scouts and management evaluating top athletes and objectively determining how they rank in the Cardinals' order of things.

Maybe Rod and his staff and Denny will arrive at the same conclusion you do. But they just as easily could rate Eli and/or Roethlisberger as "can't miss" franchise guys you can't pass up.

The key to all this is thorough, objective and and really astute talent-evaluation and not prejudgement based on press clippings, need or potential impact on the gate.

I seem to recall that the Pokes favored drafting Roy Williams over Quentin Jammer (despite having a greater need at CB and already having Woodson at one of the safeties). They simply concluded that Williams was a Ronnie Lott, Junior Seau type difference maker they couldn't pass up. (I think that's what happened).

I think the Cardinals have to go through that same process - whether it comes down favoring someone like Taylor or Fitzgerald or whether it favors Manning or Roeth.

 

[Cardiac]

It has been a trend for several years now that the SB QB's are not of the "franchise" type. So let's look at the playoffs this year:

Early 1st rd QB's

McNabb
Manning
McNair

1st day picks:

Favre
Jake Plummer
Quincy Carter

2nd day picks/UFA:

Trent Green
Tom Brady
Anthony Wright
Hassleback
Marc Bulger
Jake Delohome


So after careful examination it looks like you can only draft QB's in the 1st rd if their last name starts with an M.

Actually it looks like the common thread is the Coaching, front office and ownership.

 

[spanky1]

Jeff,

You make very valid comments. Green is a very astute talent evaluator. I'll support whatever his decision is come draft day......Eli, Ben, Fitzgerald, Roy Williams and Sean Taylor can all play on my team.

 

[pinnacle]

FYI....Jurecki was screaming in the offseason that we should go after delhomme as our QB....I got the impression the Cardinals were never really that interested.. Delhomme was supposedly going to Dallas...not sure what happened as he signed with the Panthers...I do not recall that there were that many teams that were interested him...but then again - perhaps they were but he was only interested in a short list...

 

[Cardiac]

I have to think the Cards were hoping McCown and mayber Parsons would develop. We needed a vet QB to help stabilize the very young WR's etc. Unfortunately Blake didn't work out so well.

 

[MadCardDisease]

DEFENSE Wins Championships

It wasn't Delhomme or Brady

 

[john h]

Originally posted by spanky1
Super Bowl bound.........Jake Delhomme and Tom Brady. Were either of them any better than McCown in their respective draft classes? Tell me honestly, had any of you heard about Delhomme prior to this year.....or Brady four years ago?

I really was hoping we would get Delhomme when we were looking for a FA QB. In most of the articles I read he was considered the one with the best upside. To me McCown is still the great unknown and I would have fired our HC for not finding out more about him earlier and we would not be in this position of not knowing just how good or bad this guy is. How many games could he have played in when we were out of it. How many games could he have played in when we were out of the race?

 

[john h]

Originally posted by spanky1
Jeff,

My point (or the one I'm trying to make), is that Eli and or Ben R. may not be the necessary way to go with our #3 pick. I just do not think that they are going to be heads above McCown. You are right, you win with outstanding line play on both sides of the ball. Also, while Philadelphia and the Colts have great RB's in Staley and James they have only one WR that can break open a game.......you give me Boldin, Johnson and say Roy Williams and we would be very very tough to defense against. The days of "franchise QB's" ended when Aikman & Elway, Kelly and Marino retired......and the latter two never brought home the "big one".

McCown remains a great unknown in game conditions. He has not played enough to make a good judgement. This remains the fault of the HC and falls under Evaluating Talent.

 

[john h]

Originally posted by pinnacle
FYI....Jurecki was screaming in the offseason that we should go after delhomme as our QB....I got the impression the Cardinals were never really that interested.. Delhomme was supposedly going to Dallas...not sure what happened as he signed with the Panthers...I do not recall that there were that many teams that were interested him...but then again - perhaps they were but he was only interested in a short list...

It may be that Del wrote the Cards off early and told his agent he was not interested. If he did that he is indeed a wise QB.

 

[Cardiac]

Originally posted by MadCardDisease
DEFENSE Wins Championships

It wasn't Delhomme or Brady

Except for when the Rams won this does seems to be the formula. Even that year the Rams D was decent.

 

[JeffGollin]

Except for when the Rams won this does seems to be the formula.
Just to add other wood to the flames -

Don't you think there's a difference between bringing in a QB to fill in the one remaining spot on pretty good offensive roster vs. adding one first and then building around him later?

Timing of these moves may be more important than we give credit for.

 

[Wildman©]

Originally posted by MadCardDisease
DEFENSE Wins Championships

It wasn't Delhomme or Brady

and

Originally posted by Cardiac:
Except for when the Rams won this does seems to be the formula. Even that year the Rams D was decent.


Memory fails me... What great DEFENSE did the Rams play against when they won the Super Bowl? Didn't the Rams lose the SB the year that they played against a great DEFENSE?

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Wildman©
Originally posted by MadCardDisease
DEFENSE Wins Championships

It wasn't Delhomme or Brady

and

Originally posted by Cardiac:
Except for when the Rams won this does seems to be the formula. Even that year the Rams D was decent.


Memory fails me... What great DEFENSE did the Rams play against when they won the Super Bowl? Didn't the Rams lose the SB the year that they played against a great DEFENSE?

The Rams, if I remember right, had to beat the Bucs on the way to the Super Bowl in 1999 (when they won), and then just barely outscored a very sound defensive Titans team. To that, though, I believe that the Rams had the #2 or at least Top 5 defense that season (the last with Kevin Carter)

When they lost to the Pats, that D wasn't great, at least statistically. They were smart and physical, but they were also white-hot going into the playoffs. The Rams did have to go through a never-better Eagles defense on the way to the SB.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by spanky1
had any of you heard about Delhomme prior to this year.....or Brady four years ago?

honestly, i remember watching delhomme in some clean up years ago with the saints. didn't think much of him.

and you have to not follow college football AT ALL to not know who tom brady was before he came out of michigan.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by spanky1
The days of "franchise QB's" ended when Aikman & Elway, Kelly and Marino retired......and the latter two never brought home the "big one".

this is just a silly silly statement. yeah, you convinced me, i don't want a franchise qb anymore 'cuz they can't help you win . . .

 

[100%CardsFan]

They used to call Delhomme "Jake the Cajon Snake" when he was playing in New Orleans

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
Can't disagree. But the process has to involve scouts and management evaluating top athletes and objectively determining how they rank in the Cardinals' order of things.COLOR]

That is how the process works

 

[PACardsFan]

Originally posted by MadCardDisease
DEFENSE Wins Championships

It wasn't Delhomme or Brady

I agree wholeheartedly. If Manning was on the Patriots, he's be heading for the SB. If McNabb was with the Panthers, he'd also be heading for the SB. Brady is a system QB, if he were with the Cardinals last year, we would have been just as bad. The Patriots thought they drafted a franchise QB in Bledsoe, but an unforeseen injury allowed Brady to better fit into their SYSTEM. If your going to be an offense-oriented team, which will be Green's SYSTEM, then it is easier to dramatically improve with a FRANCHISE QB. Both the Pats & Panthers are defensive-oriented, so their SYSTEMS allow for average QB's. In a vertical O, which I believe we'll install, it's always better to go with a franchise QB

 

[cardsunsfan]

I don't agree with the argument don't draft a QB as a high pick. Comparing that pick to all of the other QB's picked doesn't make sense... Yeah if you give me the choice of either having Eli or all of the other QB's drafted this year and free agents..and give me the chance to play all of them to see which one I like best I pick all the rest!!! How about this, lets look at the fifth QB taken and see how he compares to the 1st qb taken over the years, I wonder who usually ends up being the better player!